Why I think Elite Dangerous is going to dominate the Space MMO/Space Sim genre

So you wont have 4 Billion Stars to Explore. But in exchange a Single Planet will be something that a whole Clan can take Months to Survey.

And how are they going to build a full scale planet that takes months to survey??

Here is reality : What is planned is handmade landing zones, and everything around it will not be accessible or will be made by PG. Just like in Elite. If you want to survey a PG planet for months with your clan, you may be able to... I just don't see the appeal.


In fact planets in SC will end up a lot like what we have in Engineers. A handmade landing zone/base and PG planet, the difference being in SC you will be able to walk around and explore the base on foot, and interact with NPCs.

I expect this to come in Elite sooner or later.
 
And how are they going to build a full scale planet that takes months to survey??

Here is reality : What is planned is handmade landing zones, and everything around it will not be accessible or will be made by PG. Just like in Elite. If you want to survey a PG planet for months with your clan, you may be able to... I just don't see the appeal.


In fact planets in SC will end up a lot like what we have in Engineers. A handmade landing zone/base and PG planet, the difference being in SC you will be able to walk around and explore the base on foot, and interact with NPCs.

I expect this to come in Elite sooner or later.


Procedural Generation.
The Tool which also allowed ED to make 4 Billion Stars will be used to create Planet Surfaces in SC.

And well. It will be just as exciting as Surveying the 4 Billion Stars at least ;)
 
We won't know till they all come out.

I suspect NMS is something that will be brilliant for a normal, 40-hr-ish lifespan. Lots of polish but not the sort of game you can get lost in. Maybe. I think the tightness of the design might mean people don't hang around for years hoping their special thing they want gets implemented.

I suspect SC will be a bit like ELITE. A hugely ambitious game with loads of great things and less-great things and forums with endless moaning about how they've played it for thousands of hours and it's rubbish. I'd be surprised if it was a knock-it-out-of-the-park success but you never know...
 
We won't know till they all come out.

I suspect NMS is something that will be brilliant for a normal, 40-hr-ish lifespan. Lots of polish but not the sort of game you can get lost in. Maybe. I think the tightness of the design might mean people don't hang around for years hoping their special thing they want gets implemented.

I suspect SC will be a bit like ELITE. A hugely ambitious game with loads of great things and less-great things and forums with endless moaning about how they've played it for thousands of hours and it's rubbish. I'd be surprised if it was a knock-it-out-of-the-park success but you never know...

NMS could be a more complex experience than might be suspected at first sight. Hello Games have kept a lot under wraps and I'd wager there's more than 40 hours worth there before it becomes samey, but just how much more - who can say?

SC is in such an odd situation right now it's impossible to predict. Like the difference between genius and insanity, the difference between a huge, rich, immersive game that is still slowly evolving and an epic train wreck that we are watching happen in slow motion is a very thin line.

SC and ED have a lot of similarities, and some significant differences, but they are broadly of the same family, however NMS is a different species altogether.

Not saying it will, but if NMS turns out to be a killer game that entices many players away from ED by being the sort of game those players really wanted all along, then it would have a similar effect on SC's future player base, leaving the ED and SC as even more direct competitors.

As for the OP question, ED does some things really, really well but IMHO it has some critical design issues and ongoing problems that will prevent it ever becoming the "dominant" game in the genre.
 
Well in General they are not thaat different.

Both are Space MMOs with an Open World.
One of the Big Differences would be Exploration if ED would get up from their Asses and Finally Start giving us some more stuff to do in that Field. Because Star Citizen is not going this Direction very much.
SC announced to go very Detailed on everything. But in exchange the Scale will be much smaller.
So you wont have 4 Billion Stars to Explore. But in exchange a Single Planet will be something that a whole Clan can take Months to Survey.

Aside from that there aint really much that you can do in ED which aint going to be possible in SC.
And thats the Problem.

ED Needs to Step up their Pace.
Albeit well. Current Calculations assume that ED has roughly 2 Years before SC will become a Threat. So its not like its yet fully obvious which scale ED will have by that time.



Not really true.
So far SC has made an very strong Effort to be Clear with the Community about the Plans they have.
Something that I am missing on alot of other Dev Teams is that SC actually makes the Effort to Comment Suggestions. And then Denying, Adopting or Considering them.

And yes that Includes Denial of Suggestions ;)
For example the Exploration Part wont be anywhere the 4 Billion Stars from ED.
Then again the Options for actual Exploration of a Single Planet will be much more Detailed.


The thing is you do hear some Rumors on Bigger Ships etc etc.
But in General ED seems to be going the way of X4
Meaning you dont get to Fly anything where the Commander is not Sitting in the Pilot Seat.


And yes.
Thats the thing that Worries me.

ED wont go far from where it is now.
This is the Biggest Problem. ED has the Potential to be Competing with Star Citizen. And they do have the Options for this. But they dont do it by their own Choice. Which might cost them alot in the Long Terms.
Its annoying me like Hell that ED could Implement a Ton of Features that would make em a Valid Competition to Star Citizen ahead of time. But simply refuse to do it.


Implementing Larger Ships and Adding a bigger Variety of Space Stations and Planet Bases.
As well as Implementing Clans and Allowing Clan Bases.
And of course actually allowing Space Stations to be Attacked and Destroyed.

All of this would be well Possible. And could be Realized very Fast.
For example adding Bigger Ships and adding more Variety of Space Stations and Planetary Bases could be entirely Outsourced as the Codes for Stations and Ships are already in the Game. Meaning the only big Work is the Graphics and Design.
Which could be done entirely Outsourced without even slowing Progress of other Features. And which would only take Minimal Adjustments into the System (Flight Model Parameters) etc to then be Implemented.
But instead FD is Ignoring this Entirely.

And the Denial of Player Owned Assets and Destructible Assets is very Limiting.
This would actually be one of the Big Points that ED could make. Because SC has yet to go for Destructible Space Stations. And it will be hard for them to go there because they are Handcrafting these Massive Stations.
While ED is from the Start using Mass Build Stations with a Backround Sim. Meaning they can easily make em Destructible without risking that they Lose Work from it. :)



ED CAN Compete with Star Citizen if they Try.
But that is the thing. They need to try.

They need to Step up their Pace and most of all their Scope.
Otherwise SC will rob them a Ton of Players.

SC is a barely functioning Crysis mod that's 4 years too late.
Really there's no comparison between the two.

Just saying.
 
SC is a barely functioning Crysis mod that's 4 years too late.
Really there's no comparison between the two.

Just saying.

Games that go Big always get bugs.
And its Alpha.

Compared to Gothic 3 its working fantastic xD

As an sidenote. Unlike ED Beta I can at least play it without crashing every 5 minutes *gg*
 
however we do know that FD also listen to the community and change the design if it make sense.

Err no mate - they may alter values on certain things but change the design ? Frontier are definitely doing their own thing and be damned what the community thinks. You only have to look at Engineers and the layers upon layers of RNG to realise that. "Blaze Frontiers trail" is the new mantra - Why else introduce 100+ new currencies into the game ? [haha][haha][haha][haha]
 
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ED suffers massively from the fact they are delivering in stages. Each stage of release is not going to please everyone, therefore at each stage you are going to see those who on balance dislike a particular stage come out of the woodwork and moan. No issue with that, its what people do, but it creates wave after wave of negativity and negativity on the Internet drowns out the positive.

Releasing a complete game you get that moan once and provided the balance of the game is favourable it leaves a positive impression.

Currently NMS/SC are not released games and the comparison is made between what ED is and what these other games are on paper and in peoples heads.

The OP may be right, but I believe that will only happen when SC is completely released and people stop judging reality against vision and I am unconvinced that will ever happen before development stops on ED.
 
Err no mate - they may alter values on certain things but change the design ? Frontier are definitely doing their own thing and be damned what the community thinks. You only have to look at Engineers and the layers upon layers of RNG to realise that. "Blaze Frontiers trail" is the new mantra - Why else introduce 100+ new currencies into the game ? [haha][haha][haha][haha]

That's the thing though.

If they hadn't implemented that layers of RNG but ensured fixed outcomes for fixed actions therefore sculpted the whole experience from start to finish, wouldn't you still be 'blazing Frontier's trail'?

There is no way around it. One way or the other, the developer will decide on the rules of the game and you'll either like the experience or not. The 'blaze your own trail' concept in some people's head doesn't mean what they think it means because that meaning is actually impossible. You blaze your own trail within the confines of the game world created for you and its rules. Even in the games with the highest level of freedom, and ED certainly has copious amounts of it, you are bound by the rules. Sure, you can mod a lot of single player or dedicated server based games and you kinda bend the rules to your liking but then the game isn't what the developers designed any more.

So this 'blaze your own trail is broken by RNG' is a load of bull. RNG is always infinitely better than fixed routes for trail blazing if that's what you want. I can understand most people preferring sculpted and tailored experiences for their games but don't bring 'blaze your own trail' into it if you want to make sense. RNG and PG will always trump tailoring gameplay in terms of freedom of choice simply because they give you many different outcomes automatically by added unpredictability, thus enhancing the replay value. To 'blaze your own trail', you need that randomness because it becomes 'choose a path' otherwise.
 
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That's the thing though.

If they hadn't implemented that layers of RNG but ensured fixed outcomes for fixed actions therefore sculpted the whole experience from start to finish, wouldn't you still be 'blazing Frontier's trail'?

There is no way around it. One way or the other, the developer will decide on the rules of the game and you'll either like the experience or not. The 'blaze your own trail' concept in some people's head doesn't mean what they think it means because that meaning is actually impossible. You blaze your own trail within the confines of the game world created for you and its rules. Even in the games with the highest level of freedom, and ED certainly has copious amounts of it, you are bound by the rules. Sure, you can mod a lot of single player or dedicated server based games and you kinda bend the rules to your liking but then the game isn't what the developers designed any more.

So this 'blaze your own trail is broken by RNG' is a load of bull. RNG is always infinitely better than fixed routes for trail blazing if that's what you want. I can understand most people preferring sculpted and tailored experiences for their games but don't bring 'blaze your own trail' into it if you want to make sense. RNG and PG will always trump tailoring gameplay in terms of freedom of choice simply because they give you many different outcomes automatically by added unpredictability, thus enhancing the replay value. To 'blaze your own trail', you need that randomness because it becomes 'choose a path' otherwise.

The "blaze your own trail" concept comes from being able to do what you like, when you like and how you like within the boundaries of the code so obviously it's developer confined.

Prior to Engineers and Horizons the game "currency" revolved around credits. In order to run your ship, make upgrades, or buy a new one you had to have credits. How you got these credits was solely up to you as there were many different activities you could do. "Blaze your own trail"

Post Engineers & Horizons Frontier introduced 100+ new currencies - for a start that's absolutely bonkers. Who in their right mind thinks 100+ currencies makes for good game play ? Compound that with zero storage and now you have a problem - some commodities are quite rare so if you find them you're forced to carry them about with you or ditch them (and thanks to RNG probably never find them again ;)) The moment you force something onto a player the "blaze your own trail" concept goes out the window.

There are more examples but it would turn the post into an essay ;)

EDIT:
I understand why some decisions were taken by FD as the devs want you to play their shiny new things but it should be optional, not compulsory.
 
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Player driven economies and reactive industries of SC are far more important to me than the flat & rather static BGS of ED. Don't get me wrong - ED has some good things for it but IMO it's heading totally in the wrong direction. I log in maybe once a month to ED to see if it has improved and sadly go back to my regular gaming elsewhere.


i disagree. again. same reasons as before. nothing new.

Also you dont just log into E.D then leave to play somethig else - you log into the forums as well to try push your point further.

I own SC. Search the forums. You wont find me over there arguing Elite is better. I dont feel the need to tell anyone who likes SC on the SC forum that SC is not as good as Elite dangerous.
 
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The "blaze your own trail" concept comes from being able to do what you like, when you like and how you like within the boundaries of the code so obviously it's developer confined.

Prior to Engineers and Horizons the game "currency" revolved around credits. In order to run your ship, make upgrades, or buy a new one you had to have credits. How you got these credits was solely up to you as there were many different activities you could do. "Blaze your own trail"

Post Engineers & Horizons Frontier introduced 100+ new currencies - for a start that's absolutely bonkers. Who in their right mind thinks 100+ currencies makes for good game play ? Compound that with zero storage and now you have a problem - some commodities are quite rare so if you find them you're forced to carry them about with you or ditch them (and thanks to RNG probably never find them again ;)) The moment you force something onto a player the "blaze your own trail" concept goes out the window.

There are more examples but it would turn the post into an essay ;)

EDIT:
I understand why some decisions were taken by FD as the devs want you to play their shiny new things but it should be optional, not compulsory.

I'd agree with you only if engineer mods were a mandatory part of the game which unlock future content. Right now they are merely nice-to-haves. I see the various requirements to get them as gameplay value since they lead me to do things I already enjoy doing like flying around looking for things or running missions. If something requires me to do something I don't want to, I simply forfeit that upgrade. This, for me at least, adds to 'blaze your own trail' since it gives me a choice with consequences.

I see elite as a game which makes you pay the price of what you get. In my opinion, this is the fundamental reason for disagreement among players, which can be true for any game too. In a lot of games these days, the price for things you own is peanuts or they are designed in such a way, it doesn't feel like work to achieve them. You might say 'a game needs to be enjoyable and not feel like work' and I'd totally understand you but some games don't really need that. They are better when they feel like work because that's precisely what they are trying to imitate. Work in a fantasy environment which isn't possible in real life. If those games feel too much like mainstream entertainment, they lose their unique value. I see elite as one of those games which want you to take it seriously. It certainly isn't an approachable game and the needed time investment is simply too steep. The part I don't agree is that this is a bad thing. I play many games I don't take seriously and I play them often, hop in and out on a whim. I even clock more hours playing different games in total than I clock in ED but still, I play more ED than each of those games because I take it more seriously than any other game I played in my life. The trick is to approach it only when I feel like putting in 5-6 hours uninterrupted, knowing full well I could be behind where I started in terms of money and other resources, all that time for negative values. That rarely happens though because since I take it seriously, I have a game plan before I sit down and I rarely make mistakes.

I like Elite exactly because it feels like work, which make me think about what I'm trying to do, how much time I'm gonna spend on it and what the likely outcome is. I would honestly hate it if it was yet another game to throw myself at and every minute I spend with it is a net positive. The only thing Elite forces you to do is to think about what you are doing, and that's a good thing.
 
I think ED missed its chance to become the cult classic that it could of been, I think it missed it by a wide mark.

What you have with ED is more of a 'space invaders' style game world that lacks any persistance or meaning, something which its predecessors had bucket loads of.

I think if a true successor to FFE was produced, it would clean up, nothing would come close for years.

Im talking a single player experience, with Coop at the most.
 
i disagree. again. same reasons as before. nothing new.

Also you dont just log into E.D then leave to play somethig else - you log into the forums as well to try push your point further.

I own SC. Search the forums. You wont find me over there arguing Elite is better. I dont feel the need to tell anyone who likes SC on the SC forum that SC is not as good as Elite dangerous.

I don't believe that talking about me is on the table:

Discuss the topic, not each other.




I'd agree with you only if engineer mods were a mandatory part of the game which unlock future content. Right now they are merely nice-to-haves. I see the various requirements to get them as gameplay value since they lead me to do things I already enjoy doing like flying around looking for things or running missions. If something requires me to do something I don't want to, I simply forfeit that upgrade. This, for me at least, adds to 'blaze your own trail' since it gives me a choice with consequences.

At the launch of 2.1 I would argue you were wrong - the NPCs were insane. Now, yes they're nice to have until you hit a high combat rank then they are a must. Also, with the changes to the AI they are essential (though not mandatory) for players who are not that good at the game but still wish to play. They sort of compensate.

I like Elite exactly because it feels like work, which make me think about what I'm trying to do, how much time I'm gonna spend on it and what the likely outcome is. I would honestly hate it if it was yet another game to throw myself at and every minute I spend with it is a net positive. The only thing Elite forces you to do is to think about what you are doing, and that's a good thing.

Maybe bad choice of words but "work" isn't why I play games. (but I know what you meant)



I think ED missed its chance to become the cult classic that it could of been, I think it missed it by a wide mark.

ED still has the potential to be great again - Frontier need to start listening to their players and react quicker.
 
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I hope, so I really do .. but... the 32 player instance , in a vast Universe, means I never see anyone , The whole time I have been playing in Mobuis , I have seen only TWO human players pop up on the radar, for now I'm just interacting with a dead Universe , its' a 10 year plan so a lot more 'Life' will happen , but still it will be a 32 player instance in a vast universe, this is the foundation.
 
I hope, so I really do .. but... the 32 player instance , in a vast Universe, means I never see anyone , The whole time I have been playing in Mobuis , I have seen only TWO human players pop up on the radar, for now I'm just interacting with a dead Universe , its' a 10 year plan so a lot more 'Life' will happen , but still it will be a 32 player instance in a vast universe, this is the foundation.

Hijacking the thread a little - I am a member of Mobius (among others) and when doing some of the CGs I see plenty of people.

Check your computer and router / firewall just in case. (If they are causing the issue then you will still meet people but only under certain circumstances AFAIK).

This may help - LINK - Frontier also have a link to check things on their support site.
 
I don't believe that talking about me is on the table:










At the launch of 2.1 I would argue you were wrong - the NPCs were insane. Now, yes they're nice to have until you hit a high combat rank then they are a must. Also, with the changes to the AI they are essential (though not mandatory) for players who are not that good at the game but still wish to play. They sort of compensate.



Maybe bad choice of words but "work" isn't why I play games. (but I know what you meant)





ED still has the potential to be great again - Frontier need to start listening to their players and react quicker.

Didnt discuss you.
Corrected you.
 
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Didnt discuss you.
Corrected you.

I am sorry but please re-read your words. When you tell me what you think I do that is discussing me, so I will kindly ask you to refrain from it. We have already been warned by a Mod to stop sniping so I would welcome you adhering to it as well.

Have a good day.
 
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I think ED missed its chance to become the cult classic that it could of been, I think it missed it by a wide mark.

What you have with ED is more of a 'space invaders' style game world that lacks any persistance or meaning, something which its predecessors had bucket loads of.

I think if a true successor to FFE was produced, it would clean up, nothing would come close for years.

Im talking a single player experience, with Coop at the most.

I agree

Hearing all the dev diaries and other videos, and reading the DDF (my god... have they made that game from the DDF David would probably Ascend to god status lol) I was pretty sure my hero David Braben is here again to show the whole world what wonders one can achieve with PG. I was prepared to be amazed. I ended up with 3 station designs and repeated artist made asteroids, disjointed universe with loading pauses, and lifeless galaxy :/

Both, the old Elite, and Frontier, were ahead of their time and became instant classics, FFE was more like an expansion (it came relatively soon after FE2) but it still attempted many new things in the genre (galnet etc.)

ED is just mediocre all around with most things playing catch up with the other space sims instead of setting the path for others to follow like its predecessors did

And just like you i believe its all due to somebody`s silly idea to make this game always online. I mean.... ED with its silly disjointed instances feels far less technically impressive than Frontier`s seamless universe from 1993

Ed is not a bad game... just like 75% of other bargain bin games. But it`s not in the same league as Elite and FE2/FFE. It feels cheap all around
 
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