War imminent! Trail of SALT

[Xaevryn]

The difference, as should be blindingly obvious, is that Group A have no choice about "interfering with" with Group B's game in this tiny nebulous way, whereas Group B were actually going out of their way to **** with Group A.

What percentage of habitually Solo/Mobius players do you think really give a tinker's cuss about "affecting the BGS"? 10%? 5%? 2%?

I KNOW it's not about roleplay. That's just the figleaf that the griefers you're acting as an apologist for have been pointing to to excuse their griefing.

Lol, Jesus kid, simmer down.

Fact remains that there's a significant enough amount of people in Solo/PG that yes they have a solid enough effect whether they care or not. It makes Open players a little exasperated when their hard work is entirely nullified by clueless people who just don't give a "tinker's cuss". Do I think the PvE groups should've been infiltrated by PvP players and attacked? no, actually, I don't. I don't condone that sort of thing nor will I ever. I play in open 90% of the time, while occasionally switching to this forum's PG to play with a friend who does not like open. Anyway, I'm in open much, much more often than not and really? griefers are not nearly as much of a problem as you seem to believe they are.

I PvP, myself, but am I a griefer? I don't believe so. In fact, I go out of my way to protect people like yourself in open if they are under attack or need some help. I'm a defender. But I'm also an enforcer. I catch you doing something illegal or undermining the Empire? I'll give you a chance to either drop cargo or highwake out of the system. If you ignore my single warning, I will kill you. That's not griefing, that is playing the game. If you think gameplay like that is griefing then honestly, kid, stick to single player games and leave online-only multiplayer games to people like us who can handle things being a bit unpredictable, ok? thanks.

 

[Roybe]

Here's a video on how the game works...enjoy:


[video=youtube;EvJPyjmfdz0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvJPyjmfdz0[/video]

 

[4fast5me]

The difference, as should be blindingly obvious, is that Group A have no choice about "interfering with" with Group B's game in this tiny nebulous way, whereas Group B were actually going out of their way to **** with Group A.

What percentage of habitually Solo/Mobius players do you think really give a tinker's cuss about "affecting the BGS"? 10%? 5%? 2%?

I KNOW it's not about roleplay. That's just the figleaf that the griefers you're acting as an apologist for have been pointing to to excuse their griefing.

When there is no opposition CG to take part in, and no direct way to oppose it in open because the majority of its progress is being made in private, what do you expect. We categorically did not want this CG to succeed. So they went to where they could oppose the ones supporting it directly.

Here's the thing... You don't care about the fact that everything you do affects the work that we put into the various systems in place.

We don't care about blowing you up.

 

[PilotAce200]

Bfdslayer, I agree with you on alot of things (I just dont say it) and some of your points here are that way. But its undeniable that 13th legion very blatantly griefed Mobius and any other trading groups they could find, and by imposing their will on everyone else (even after Fdev basically told everyone that that wasn't what they wanted by lifting the lockdown manually) they are being far more hypocritical than most of the examples anyone else uses. All the griefers defend their actions by stating "Fdev wouldn't let me do it if they didn't want me too" and yet here we have a perfect example off just that, Fdev reversed the actions of a group that was trying to impose their will on everyone thus proving they didn't want that to happen, and then those same griefers then went and actively opposed the devs by breaking the same CG a second time. Tell me where in all of that are their actions justified?

Edit: 4fast, if all efforts to oppose had been confined to open, and the same lockdown were imposed then I highly doubt that your hypocrisy would be an issue, and the end goal of all of the Imperial aligned pilots would have been seen just as well. But if Fdev has actively gone into the game and undone a BGS state then they obviously have something planned that we simply are not in the loop about. By actively opposing the devs you are only going to hurt yourselves. None of us are going to lose any sleep over a few griefers ruining their own experience after all. You may temporarily aggravate a few honest traders, but you permanently mark yourselves as dissidents in the eyes of frontier.

 

[shino3211]

When there is no opposition CG to take part in, and no direct way to oppose it in open because the majority of its progress is being made in private, what do you expect. We categorically did not want this CG to succeed. So they went to where they could oppose the ones supporting it directly.

Here's the thing... You don't care about the fact that everything you do affects the work that we put into the various systems in place.

We don't care about blowing you up.

I think what they're trying to say is that they didnt expect to have players jumping in to a PG that was set up as PvE, and some could argue that if entering it you knew it was PvE but went in with PvP goals then you would have broken some generally accepted ethical boundaries in regards to fair notice and good conduct.

I agree that PG/solo shouldnt effect the BGS and the CG, but FDev have set up the game the way they want it and PG games are apart of that
but how ever entrance to the PG was gained i doubt it was by saying "me and a bunch of my wing mates are going to come in an shoot at people actively looking to avoid PvP" so entrance gained under false pretance is a move

 

[4fast5me]

Bfdslayer, I agree with you on alot of things (I just dont say it) and some of your points here are that way. But its undeniable that 13th legion very blatantly griefed Mobius and any other trading groups they could find, and by imposing their will on everyone else (even after Fdev basically told everyone that that wasn't what they wanted by lifting the lockdown manually) they are being far more hypocritical than most of the examples anyone else uses. All the griefers defend their actions by stating "Fdev wouldn't let me do it if they didn't want me too" and yet here we have a perfect example off just that, Fdev reversed the actions of a group that was trying to impose their will on everyone thus proving they didn't want that to happen, and then those same griefers then went and actively opposed the devs by breaking the same CG a second time. Tell me where in all of that are their actions justified?

You could easily reverse that logic and say that the ones in support of the CG were imposing their will on everyone else.

Can the actions of the 13th really be labeled griefing? I don't think so. Yes their actions will have caused grief to these pilots they attacked, but they were doing it as a means to an end.

Was it a scumbag move? I suppose that depends on what did yours the fence you are standing on.

Fdev opening the commodities market in the middle of lockdown however was a scumbag move. We used the rules of the game to manipulate the status of the system, and when the devs didn't like it they just changed the rules.

Changing the rules of the game to suit you whenever you like does not a fair game make.

When that happened, other avenues were taken to achieve the same goal.

 

[GODofDUTY83]

This is how a community based game should be. I like this. Godly intervention though, leave it for church.

 

[4fast5me]

I think what they're trying to say is that they didnt expect to have players jumping in to a PG that was set up as PvE, and some could argue that if entering it you knew it was PvE but went in with PvP goals then you would have broken some generally accepted ethical boundaries in regards to fair notice and good conduct.

I agree that PG/solo shouldnt effect the BGS and the CG, but FDev have set up the game the way they want it and PG games are apart of that
but how ever entrance to the PG was gained i doubt it was by saying "me and a bunch of my wing mates are going to come in an shoot at people actively looking to avoid PvP" so entrance gained under false pretance is a move

So? They had access to the group already. If removed from the sever they were not to attempt to reentry as that would break the EULA. Whilst still having access to it, whatever they did was fair game.

It being PvE only is a mobius rule. Nothing to do with Elite itself.

Frankly I think it was ingenious.

 

[PilotAce200]

4fast, your logic is flawed all the way to the core. Here's the thing, Fdev are the DEVELOPERS, making the game the way they want. They actually have not just the privilege... But the RIGHT to change it however they see fit. And if they allow solo/pg play to affect the BGS you have no more right to prevent players from using it, as those very players have TO use it. Attacking the PG players after joining on false pretenses is in it very definition "griefing" and there is no excuse. The original lockdown was "a means to an end" that while annoying, was a perfectly legitimate tactic until Fdev decided it wasn't anymore. However the attacks on PG traders was nothing more than petty griefers so mad at the world that they just had to go off and have a huge tantrum. Go take a hike and cool off guys. Its just a game after all and there is no reason to be so childish. Me, I saw the storm brewing so I just packed up and took off towards Jaques station. 8.6KLY and counting.

 

[Comrade Error]

One group just wants to play the game as the devs have presented it without being bothered by idiots.

One group is using nebulous* "RP Reasons" to justify invading the game of the first group under a false flag to use their PvP-tuned l33t-machines to destroy helpless traders.

You're being extremely ignorant if you're trying to pretend that those are equivalent.

* - Because seriously, you're RPing your allegiance just as well by blockading the system in Open and just interacting with traders who've signed up for that experience. Obviously that won't be as effective in-game, but if roleplay really is your primary motivation that shouldn't matter.

I love mind readers who can scan intentions of people.

Sure sometimes you don't need to be a mind reader but this is one such case.

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

I agree with you on that error, it is pretty stupid that it is said you are free to help any CG or hinder it. It seems this is a lie, what is the point of trying to make a Cg fail? when FD steps in and interferes all the time. Lifting the lock down is pretty . I am not supporting or opposing the CG, but still. Pretty D move Frontier.

Don't believe there is an opposing CG which is what makes it worse.

Would be nice if Frontier could figure out that if they can't make a specific outcome when they give players that type of freedom.

And is it so hard to come up with 2 different consequences instead of forcing a linear story where they promised there shouldn't be one.

 

[shino3211]

So? They had access to the group already. If removed from the sever they were not to attempt to reentry as that would break the EULA. Whilst still having access to it, whatever they did was fair game.

It being PvE only is a mobius rule. Nothing to do with Elite itself.

Frankly I think it was ingenious.

see I think you know your      about this game and PP, so congrats and i hop i dont have to come directly up against you
but if you think joining a PvE group with PvP intentions isn't a scum move then I dont know what planet your playing this game on,
ED is set up so players can play solo in groups of like minded people or open with everyone else who wants to play open, joining a group and trashing on how they want to play the game is greifing

 

[Comrade Error]

The difference, as should be blindingly obvious, is that Group A have no choice about "interfering with" with Group B's game in this tiny nebulous way, whereas Group B were actually going out of their way to **** with Group A.

What percentage of habitually Solo/Mobius players do you think really give a tinker's cuss about "affecting the BGS"? 10%? 5%? 2%?

I KNOW it's not about roleplay. That's just the figleaf that the griefers you're acting as an apologist for have been pointing to to excuse their griefing.

Again "We're right we're rightous we can do nothing wrong. You're bad you're evil you do everything wrong. Stop arguing otherwise because I am right and rightous you are wrong and evil."

Group A have their wrongdoers and group B has their wrongdoers.

 

[4fast5me]

Pilot Ace

"But if Fdev has actively gone into the game and undone a BGS state then they obviously have something planned that we simply are not in the loop about."

It didn't stop us when they originally wanted the Empire to all be fighting amongst each other GoT style. FD wanted us to be enemies. What did we do as a group of players? Scratch that, as a group of Imperials...

We created the Imperial High Command, and the Imperial Council.
We united under one banner despite our differences.
We shown the devs that that is not what the Empire is anymore.

It didn't stop us when they tried to introduce Emperor's Dawn. We wiped them out at every turn. Forcing FD to change their script.

Like it or not, if something is introduced that we as a player base do not like, we will rebel against it.

The Powers ALD, Hudson, Mahon, etc, are all puppet leaders. The player groups are the ones with the real clout.

Think back to the last time any real significant event happened in the game and it can likely be traced back to a player groups actions.

Look at the Pegassi Pirate wars, hell even these events transpiring now with all this nonsense in merope.

 

[Comrade Error]

see I think you know your      about this game and PP, so congrats and i hop i dont have to come directly up against you
but if you think joining a PvE group with PvP intentions isn't a scum move then I dont know what planet your playing this game on,
ED is set up so players can play solo in groups of like minded people or open with everyone else who wants to play open, joining a group and trashing on how they want to play the game is greifing

And what joining up a CG in PG to avoid any and all consequence ain't scummy?

 

[PilotAce200]

These things you just stated as example though were Fdev doing something, then players resisting. This current debacle was players pick a fight, then Fdev reacts, THEN griefers bite the hand that feeds. While not totally different, it is a different argument. This change by Fdev was in response to player action, not player action in response to Fdev change.

 

[Comrade Error]

4fast, your logic is flawed all the way to the core. Here's the thing, Fdev are the DEVELOPERS, making the game the way they want. They actually have not just the privilege... But the RIGHT to change it however they see fit. And if they allow solo/pg play to affect the BGS you have no more right to prevent players from using it, as those very players have TO use it. Attacking the PG players after joining on false pretenses is in it very definition "griefing" and there is no excuse. The original lockdown was "a means to an end" that while annoying, was a perfectly legitimate tactic until Fdev decided it wasn't anymore. However the attacks on PG traders was nothing more than petty griefers so mad at the world that they just had to go off and have a huge tantrum. Go take a hike and cool off guys. Its just a game after all and there is no reason to be so childish. Me, I saw the storm brewing so I just packed up and took off towards Jaques station. 8.6KLY and counting.

Would work if Frontier didn't advertise the game as the players shaping the galaxy, not god. "Griefers" have every right to be upset for Frontier interfering.

 

[PilotAce200]

Would work if Frontier didn't advertise the game as the players shaping the galaxy, not god. "Griefers" have every right to be upset for Frontier interfering.

The right to be upset? Absolutely. And you just drove the final nail in your own coffin, by claiming you have the right to be upset and do whatever you feel like you have just cemented everybodies right to do whatever THEY deem appropriate for anything that upsets them... Solo play, PGs, even combat loggers (curse them all) are completely absolved of any wrongdoing by your logic, and 4fast's as well.

 

[4fast5me]

These things you just stated as example though were Fdev doing something, then players resisting. This current debacle was players pick a fight, then Fdev reacts, THEN griefers bite the hand that feeds. While not totally different, it is a different argument. This change by Fdev was in response to player action, not player action in response to Fdev change.

No, fdev made a community goal for a federation expansion with no way to oppose it. THEN the players react by opposing it in every manner they could.

Now I'm not going to go round and round in circles arguing over whether or not what the 13th did was right.

The point is the lengths they went to got people talking. It made people (Namely FD) notice.

That these are changes we do not want to see. Elite is hailed as being dynamic, and that we as players shape the galaxy. I fully expect changes to be made reflect that.

 

[shino3211]

And what joining up a CG in PG to avoid any and all consequence ain't scummy?

a few post back I state that I dont agree solo/PG should be able to do CG or affect BGS, but its apart of the game that FD has and even after months of complaints have keep so its must be a part they want, knowing going in to an area that people think is PvE and attacking them is greifing

game to game metaphor, if your playing paintball and are told about and area behind a wall where people wont be shooting at each other just at targets, maybe for practice maybe because thats how they like to play, and you chose to go behind that wall just to shoot them and show them that even behind the wall the paintball guns still work and they can still be shot, thats greifing

just because you can access people playing the same game as you doesn't mean you have the right to if their decided to play differently

 

[Lucius-Darcia]

This only shows that the people enjoy this game if they take it that serious. Alright here from my sight

Back to topic, to OP:
I hope they take a fusion of the PC and XBox community in the future. Here it isn't needed to separate because the main old reason for this don't count here really (sort of hardware-input like keyboard+mouse vs gamepad).