War imminent! Trail of SALT

The right to be upset? Absolutely. And you just drove the final nail in your own coffin, by claiming you have the right to be upset and do whatever you feel like you have just cemented everybodies right to do whatever THEY deem appropriate for anything that upsets them... Solo play, PGs, even combat loggers (curse them all) are completely absolved of any wrongdoing by your logic, and 4fast's as well.

There are many responses I could put here that would get me removed from the forums. Many of them questioning your intelligence after such a nonsense notion.

I'll refrain from going any further.

Please examine your own logic here. Nothing Error said correlates at all with all "EVERYTHING is appropriate".
 
Really interesting vid, thanks for sharing!

side note - 38:00 usual suspects aaaand wait a sec..
WHO'S THE SHADY GUY IN THE MIDDLE?? :eek:
Here be spoilers??

That's Archon...

If you mean the guy in the chair, that's generic male pilot #489
 
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A recap of what has happened:
The Segovan CG is a federal expansion into the areas that are known to hold barnacles.

Infuriated that there wasn't a way to counter the CG the 13th Imperial Legion (PvP group) and several Empire aligned player groups blockaded Segovan (poorly) by infiltrating a large PvE group called "Mobius". Then they proceeded to slaughter any traders entering the system.
The effort was successful in getting frontier's attention, but failed to halt the CG.

Empire PvE groups successfully changed Segovan's state into LOCKDOWN, closing the commodities market and halting the CG.
https://community.elitedangerous.com/galnet/uid/57838a639657ba3039588b4e

Then "God" (Fdev) lifted the the lockdown because of balancing issues regarding LOCKDOWN systems. The LOCKDOWN was supposed to last three days.
https://community.elitedangerous.com/galnet/uid/5783a8bb9657baeb5f588b48

Outraged by the hand of god, even more empire player factions threw their support behind the 13th's slaughter of MOBIUS players. This united Imperial effort succeeded in UA bombing Ramsbottom hub, closing the CG yet again.
https://community.elitedangerous.com/galnet/uid/578622d59657bae85f588b50

Now Denton Patrues, Admiral of the Imperial Navy, has anounced he will personally be leading a fleet into Merope to protect non-human structures
https://community.elitedangerous.com/galnet/uid/57860dc79657ba3339588b50



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Imperials are salty, PvP'rs are salty, PvE'rs are salty, and Federation CMDRs are Salty.

Thanks for the synopsis I hadn't been following. :) Looks like we could go into full scale industrial production of savoury products after harvesting the salt from everyone. [yum]


What an exciting time to be alive!

hehe [hehe]
 
Look, You people all have your blinders on. I'm not saying I'm totally objective (because I'm not) but in this situation I am more objective than you. I have no stake in this CG or the ensuing hostilities (because I'm already 9KLY towards jaques station), and I can say with total certainty that if this were an open only game you would still lose the argument because there are many times as many traders than PvP's, the use of PG/solo only speeds the process you are opposing, you could never stop it with your regular tactics and would have to resort to petty attacks and UA bombing no matter how hard to tried traditional blockades. When it is a lose/lose situation there is no way to win (by its very definition). You are only delaying what you have no power to stop. The only CGs I actively support these days are the introduction of new rare commodities and the construction of new exploration stations such as the one in Maya.
 
Yes, this is definitely an overly simplified summary of what happened.

But keep in mind, PvE groups play in group/solo because they don't want others to interfere with their game.
PvP'rs and open play people are having their game affected by an outside force they can't touch.

PvE'rs with game breaking immunity expect to not have people interfere with their game, but they willingly interfere with the BGS, which affects everyone's experience.
Their bullying the PP and BGS players, whether they know it or not.

I think the real issue here is that the only way to grab FD's attention about immersion/fair play breaking issues is to more or less throw a hissy fit and then a wrench into the machine.

The open/solo balancing issue isn't new, it's just that actions speak louder than words.
And that's why the 13th did what they did, and why it's so big of a deal.

There's easy ways to fix the open/solo balancing but Fdev chooses not to do anything. Ultimately this is on Fdev.

I'm glad the 13th did what they did, but I also believe anyone who died in segovan should be reimbursed their rebuys.

Yeah, this private group thing is a complete fiasco and has been since El Mobius went off to create a game within a game. As you say though, its ultimately down to FDev.
 
And what joining up a CG in PG to avoid any and all consequence ain't scummy?

Since it's a way that fd promised you could play the game? Not really, unlike intentionally griefing a private group that's anti pvp. That one is against FD's rules. Odd how that works, huh?
At the end of the day, you both can play your own ways, you're (not you personally) just mad that others don't want to play your way. It all comes down to numbers in this game anyways, it's theoretically impossible to blockade a community goal by killing people well enough to cause it to fail, instancing is a big issue there especially.
 
Since it's a way that fd promised you could play the game? Not really, unlike intentionally griefing a private group that's anti pvp. That one is against FD's rules. Odd how that works, huh?

Its not just odd, its plain whacky.. DBs myopic views on gameplay cripple his greater vision and the potential of the game whilst simultaneously alienating a huge number of players.

At the end of the day, you both can play your own ways, you're (not you personally) just mad that others don't want to play your way. It all comes down to numbers in this game anyways, it's theoretically impossible to blockade a community goal by killing people well enough to cause it to fail, instancing is a big issue there especially.

I'd wager we could give it a good try. I'm tired of hearing this silliness, 'play your own way'. Surely that means, what you do in game rather than segregating oneself into a reverse apartheid system, removed from everyone else?. The amount of dreadful and lame sloganeering this game has is ridiculous; almost as if its suggesting its the answer to the meaning of life. Every game I play, I play it my way what I don't expect though is for that to mean the game revolves around one special group at everyone elses expense. For the love of god.. they are <1% of the playerbase. [wacko]
 
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Since it's a way that fd promised you could play the game? Not really, unlike intentionally griefing a private group that's anti pvp. That one is against FD's rules. Odd how that works, huh?
At the end of the day, you both can play your own ways, you're (not you personally) just mad that others don't want to play your way. It all comes down to numbers in this game anyways, it's theoretically impossible to blockade a community goal by killing people well enough to cause it to fail, instancing is a big issue there especially.

I'd like to point out that what they did wasn't against any rules set by FD. If removed or asked to leave the PG, any individual was to not attempt reentry. Doing so would be in breach of the Eula as that would technically constitute as harassment.

As long as they didn't go back in after being removed, no rule was broken.
 
There's no possible winning of any side / position in these arguments.

It's reasonable to argue that players ducking for cover in solo / pg to affect the galaxy we all share without risk of reprisal, is scummy & unfair. It's equally reasonable to claim that people who want to play the game but don't want any pvp, have a right to be included & have a stake in goings-on, and that solo & pg are a legitimate framework for these purposes.

It's reasonable to argue that the action to invade mobius was an fair demonstration responding against an unfair cg, and was done within the allowed rules. It's equally reasonable to claim that the invasion was a direct violation of player's rights.

It's reasonable to argue that the invasion was heroic, that results are what matters in war, that 'honour' is a luxury of idealistic daydreamers - hence the means were justifiable. It's equally reasonable to claim the action of pvp'ers invading & killing traders is cowardly and shameful.

Only thing I know for sure is thargoids gonna have a field day feasting on us while we continue to in-fight to the very last. Unless they're as dumb and fractious as we are.
 
There's no possible winning of any side / position in these arguments.

It's reasonable to argue that players ducking for cover in solo / pg to affect the galaxy we all share without risk of reprisal, is scummy & unfair. It's equally reasonable to claim that people who want to play the game but don't want any pvp, have a right to be included & have a stake in goings-on, and that solo & pg are a legitimate framework for these purposes.

It's reasonable to argue that the action to invade mobius was an fair demonstration responding against an unfair cg, and was done within the allowed rules. It's equally reasonable to claim that the invasion was a direct violation of player's rights.

It's reasonable to argue that the invasion was heroic, that results are what matters in war, that 'honour' is a luxury of idealistic daydreamers - hence the means were justifiable. It's equally reasonable to claim the action of pvp'ers invading & killing traders is cowardly and shameful.

Only thing I know for sure is thargoids gonna have a field day feasting on us while we continue to in-fight to the very last. Unless they're as dumb and fractious as we are.

I don't know man, winter is coming.
 
There's no possible winning of any side / position in these arguments.

It's reasonable to argue that players ducking for cover in solo / pg to affect the galaxy we all share without risk of reprisal, is scummy & unfair. It's equally reasonable to claim that people who want to play the game but don't want any pvp, have a right to be included & have a stake in goings-on, and that solo & pg are a legitimate framework for these purposes.

It's reasonable to argue that the action to invade mobius was an fair demonstration responding against an unfair cg, and was done within the allowed rules. It's equally reasonable to claim that the invasion was a direct violation of player's rights.

It's reasonable to argue that the invasion was heroic, that results are what matters in war, that 'honour' is a luxury of idealistic daydreamers - hence the means were justifiable. It's equally reasonable to claim the action of pvp'ers invading & killing traders is cowardly and shameful.

Only thing I know for sure is thargoids gonna have a field day feasting on us while we continue to in-fight to the very last. Unless they're as dumb and fractious as we are.

Perfectly summarised my feelings. You can be my forum spokesperson any time.
 
There's no possible winning of any side / position in these arguments.

It's reasonable to argue that players ducking for cover in solo / pg to affect the galaxy we all share without risk of reprisal, is scummy & unfair. It's equally reasonable to claim that people who want to play the game but don't want any pvp, have a right to be included & have a stake in goings-on, and that solo & pg are a legitimate framework for these purposes.

It's reasonable to argue that the action to invade mobius was an fair demonstration responding against an unfair cg, and was done within the allowed rules. It's equally reasonable to claim that the invasion was a direct violation of player's rights.

It's reasonable to argue that the invasion was heroic, that results are what matters in war, that 'honour' is a luxury of idealistic daydreamers - hence the means were justifiable. It's equally reasonable to claim the action of pvp'ers invading & killing traders is cowardly and shameful.

Only thing I know for sure is thargoids gonna have a field day feasting on us while we continue to in-fight to the very last. Unless they're as dumb and fractious as we are.

O7 ^this, I have no stake in the particular CG or the war that will follow. I'm staying away from the bubble for a while anyways. I have been in this threading pointing out the fallacy of their logic, not trying to push my own will on others. Do I support solo/PGs? Yes... Do I support PvP? Absolutely. Do I feel that all CGs that favor any particular faction need a counter cg? Yes infact, however that is Fdev's call to make not ours. These threads like this exemplify how toxic and petty certain CMDRs are and gives us a glimpse into their tiny minds. So cute &#55357;&#56842;

Edit: Sorry mung0, can't give you rep. Gotta "spread it around"... Lame.
 
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There's no possible winning of any side / position in these arguments.

It's reasonable to argue that players ducking for cover in solo / pg to affect the galaxy we all share without risk of reprisal, is scummy & unfair. It's equally reasonable to claim that people who want to play the game but don't want any pvp, have a right to be included & have a stake in goings-on, and that solo & pg are a legitimate framework for these purposes.

It's reasonable to argue that the action to invade mobius was an fair demonstration responding against an unfair cg, and was done within the allowed rules. It's equally reasonable to claim that the invasion was a direct violation of player's rights.

It's reasonable to argue that the invasion was heroic, that results are what matters in war, that 'honour' is a luxury of idealistic daydreamers - hence the means were justifiable. It's equally reasonable to claim the action of pvp'ers invading & killing traders is cowardly and shameful.

Only thing I know for sure is thargoids gonna have a field day feasting on us while we continue to in-fight to the very last. Unless they're as dumb and fractious as we are.

On your last point... That's one reason we're doing this kind of thing. If anything is to happen, not just with the thargoid storyline, but really ANYTHING significant, we as an invested player base need to have some sort of control in the matter. If we want all out war, we should be able to control that. At the same time, if war were to break out then we need the ability to stop it.

I spoke earlier of our ability to change things from the standpoint of being an imperial. The formation of the Imperial High Command contrary to what FD had planned. The Destruction of Emperor's Dawn, against Frontiers plans.

This is the kind of thing I'm talking about.

When FD tried to pit the Empire factions against each other, we said no. We ARE Imperials, and we would not attack our brothers and sisters. Sure we have our differences but so does any family.

I'm sure there are some amongst the federation that share similar events and feelings.


We as a player base are the ones that shape the galaxy. We should have some measure of control over it.

Single vein arcs like what has happened with this CG cannot happen. Not within the framework that has already been established. We won't allow it.

Whether you agree with the manner that the players in question handled the situation or not. Know that FD will have taken notice. And I'm sure they will keep this in mind next time so that history doesn't repeat itself.
 
On your last point... That's one reason we're doing this kind of thing. If anything is to happen, not just with the thargoid storyline, but really ANYTHING significant, we as an invested player base need to have some sort of control in the matter. If we want all out war, we should be able to control that. At the same time, if war were to break out then we need the ability to stop it.

I spoke earlier of our ability to change things from the standpoint of being an imperial. The formation of the Imperial High Command contrary to what FD had planned. The Destruction of Emperor's Dawn, against Frontiers plans.

This is the kind of thing I'm talking about.

When FD tried to pit the Empire factions against each other, we said no. We ARE Imperials, and we would not attack our brothers and sisters. Sure we have our differences but so does any family.

I'm sure there are some amongst the federation that share similar events and feelings.


We as a player base are the ones that shape the galaxy. We should have some measure of control over it.

Single vein arcs like what has happened with this CG cannot happen. Not within the framework that has already been established. We won't allow it.

Whether you agree with the manner that the players in question handled the situation or not. Know that FD will have taken notice. And I'm sure they will keep this in mind next time so that history doesn't repeat itself.
Yeah you're quite right imo. Then there's how FD responded to the situation themselves.. WOW. I deliberately left out any of this kind of stuff in my last post.

All I'll say there is that the intervention they took, they were damned if they did or didn't do anything, I'm sure it was done with the best intentions, but whether or not it's the right way to go for the future of cg's or simply as a stopgap, man oh man the timing.. How unfortunate. Is it stands they're facing backlash now from both sides of the cg argument, for the apparent handwaving away of player's actions.

This particular post was a fantastic summary of how it looked to the players:
So let me get this straight:


  • FD make changes that make the BGS deeper and more responsive - by fleshing out the Lockdown State to cause Market Shutdowns, which opens up the door for emergent gameplay such as blockade & resource denial, in a way that actually preserves the sanctity of the Game Modes. Quite elegant really.


  • Players quite rightly make use of allowed game mechanics in order to make an impact across Modes, to further legitimate in-setting goals (Empire players opposing Federation expansion with a Lockdown Blockade of the CG Market)...


  • CG Market is successfully closed down, halting the CG progress temporarily.

What should have happened next:


  • Federation bounty hunters are deployed to reverse the Lockdown, by seeking out local RES, camping out the Nav Beacon, and enforcing an Interdiction Zone in Supercruise, to eliminate criminal elements.*


  • The CG is extended for some arbitrary amount of time to give everyone a good chance to win or to lose properly, according to the basic rules of gameplay mechanics. A nice and proportionate DM response, that respects both the rules of the game, and the actions of all the players involved.

*Traders don't have to go out hunting themselves, silly! They could actually call on player bounty hunters to come in to help, or hire one of the Mercenary player groups to bounty hunt on their behalf. An FD-injected BH CG would certainly facilitate this, yes, however that sort of handholding isn't entirely needed really.

What actually happened:


  • Before counter actions to the Lockdown can even begin, before the players can even really begin to work out whats happening or what to do, the DM comes along and lifts the Lockdown. Facepalm. As if FD don't even want players to explore the ramifications of their own darn game systems!? Seriously.


  • FD promise to "fix it" so this sort of thing can't derail CGs ever again...

ED is often accused of having shallow gameplay; on a level this was an opportunity to see what happens when two of ED's game systems interact with each other, and how players could interact with that as well. Not dissimilar to how I believe a Boom BGS state allowed a quick victory in one of the Rounds of the Dangerous Games, recently? How come that wasn't God Modded too?

It seems so bizarre that you are actively trying to compartmentalize the different game mechanics in your game FD. Don't you get it that the magic starts happening when the different elements of the gameplay loops feed into and interact with each other? But you actually want to ensure that can't happen by locking out certain bits from other bits that suit you, but in an inconsistent way (see Boom effecting the Dangerous Games) that makes zero sense and annoys the people that you are modding over?

"Commending" the actions that sparked this, and then God Modding over them, even promising to make sure this never happens again by decoupling Lockdown from future CGs, is insanely baffling to the emergent mindset that YOU SELL TO PEOPLE, and is utterly failing to see the deeper point here: that formulaic & sterile Community Goals are boring, and if you want to use them to progress a story you sell to people as being player driven, then you need to allow things to go astray, and give control to players to decide how something is won or lost - by the most skillful use of your own game rules.

Thinking about it, it really shows something, that so many CG players actually thought what was happening was a bug (with all the "game is broken" type comments): CG players are so used to not needing to muster up any problem-solving skills when engaging with FD's CGs, that they couldn't even respond to a run-of-the-mill BGS situation like Lockdown. And worse still, FD actually support this dumbed-downed attitude by activating God Mode in order to preserve those CG player's entitlement.

It is hurting my brain trying to work it out, this isn't a random derp-de-derp trade goal, it's a story arc, which FD purports that player actions matter to the outcomes.. But then they go ahead and preserve the entitlement of the very players who couldn't even name the Emperor or the President, let alone actually care about whether or not the Feds expand to the Pleiades, players who just want to grind grind grind for endless credits, that don't really bring anything to the game's community other than fill up a bar at a CG for credits. And FD side with them over the sorts of players who really do care about the storylines and the plot and the wider success of the game. Agghhh!!

FD you should just allow CGs to act as "scaffolding" for player decisions: Just having a story move based on player actions filling up a meter does not constitute "player-driven" content. You need to actually respond to real player decisions and intentions, in the manner of a thoughtful and light-handed Dungeon Master.

Please Stop God Modding.

If the only reason you are disfiguring the normal BGS operation interaction with CGs is to appease players who don't want their playstyle infringed upon, then you need to de-couple progress contribution (not rewards gained) from Solo and PG, just as Sandro proposed happen to Powerplay, the same should be for CGs.

Having FD mutilate the game for people in Open (by cutting out interesting parts of the BGS) just to appease players in Solo is intolerable. Just cut them out of contributing and be done with it. This is now causing harm to your game and limiting the scope for player action.

There's some feedback for you Zac / Brett.

..worth remembering though that in fairness this is FD's first mmo and in a sense they're a 'young' developer in that respect. Mistakes have & will continue to be made, the important thing is to learn from them. I'm confident they will, I'm 100% certain they don't do things just to antagonise players, no matter what some think. They want a buoyant happy game population like any dev does. But as I said elsewhere, the reality of a game with a 10-year development plan is going to permanent growing pains. But hey it's gonna be quite the ride at least :p
 
Yeah you're quite right imo. Then there's how FD responded to the situation themselves.. WOW. I deliberately left out any of this kind of stuff in my last post.

All I'll say there is that the intervention they took, they were damned if they did or didn't do anything, I'm sure it was done with the best intentions, but whether or not it's the right way to go for the future of cg's or simply as a stopgap, man oh man the timing.. How unfortunate. Is it stands they're facing backlash now from both sides of the cg argument, for the apparent handwaving away of player's actions.

This particular post was a fantastic summary of how it looked to the players:

..worth remembering though that in fairness this is FD's first mmo and in a sense they're a 'young' developer in that respect. Mistakes have & will continue to be made, the important thing is to learn from them. I'm confident they will, I'm 100% certain they don't do things just to antagonise players, no matter what some think. They want a buoyant happy game population like any dev does. But as I said elsewhere, the reality of a game with a 10-year development plan is going to permanent growing pains. But hey it's gonna be quite the ride at least :p

That post is expertly well put.

And I am sure you are correct. This hasn't been done to antagonize any group intentionally. It's been a panic knee jerk reaction. The Devs didn't know how to handle the situation and chose poorly.

There are many things that need to be discussed as time goes on (in a calm and reasonable manner) as to how to actually achieve this level of interactivity. It's a very hard thing to balance I'm sure.

I'm part of an Elite rated group, as an elite group we get special privileges as it is when it comes to communicae with the devs. There's a good number of other player groups with the same standing, and there are some groups with even greater privileges.

Should we solely be the ones to change the face of the galaxy? I think not.

At the same time, the actions of grinders for example, people that don't know what they are doing, what they are changing... Should they? I don't believe that to be the best course of action.

The answer lies somewhere in between. But that's incredibly hard to manage from an in game perspective.

Then there are changes to power play itself that would go a long way towards giving the more interested players more time to engage and plan for the future. To discuss things with the devs, and shape things dynamically. As it stands a lot of time is taken up simply keeping our powers afloat in the face of fifth column attacks. I won't go into details as I know power play itself is not something that is for everyone.

It is still early in the games life cycle as far as the devs plan. I'm sure things will change for the better. Until then, when problems arise, they need to be recognized.
 
This turn of events has some what discouraged my interests in playing with the BGS. For a while now I have dabbled here and there, and I pay attention to what every mission I take is doing, the consequences for each mission I do, and for whom, instead of seeing the bottom line and only caring based on that (like I used to) Am I to understand that I can put in months of hard work reshaping one or two systems for myself to call my home and have FD just come in and say Nope! Wave their magic wand and undo everything I worked so hard on? What happend to Blazing get my own trail? Leaving my mark on the galaxy? Or maybe just put an * in there somewhere. Blaze your own trail *so long as we approve. I am not angry or raging, just concerned is all.
 
All those endless whinings about players in solo and PG ruining the pew pew crew's game would actually mean something if we indeed had a shared galaxy with the PC and Mac players....whos actions.. in whatever mode... are beyond influence.

Not to mention instancing.

A purely PvP approach, singular or group, to gameplay in ED be it the BGS manipulation or the permanently broken Powerplay, does nothing but stroke personal egos.
Without PvE, there is completely no game outside the narrow mindedness of a poorly implemented space combat sim...this isn't Eve online with cockpits... no grand player controlled factions, groups or whatever to make an impact on even minor instances in the vastness of the ED galaxy.

Stroking egos...I'm sure you're all legends in your own minds by now. Meanwhile, I'll get on with flying my spaceship and shooting rocks as far away from you as I can be :rolleyes:
 
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