Elite Babysitter...

[Robert Maynard]

The pew- pewers might not want their economic market exploited by hidden traders. They aren't under any obligation to have their game reduced by stealth market manipulation for the trader's wealth gains either.

Given that NPCs will massively outnumber PCs and that the background simulation runs 24/7 with NPC market modification, I remain sceptical that players in one group will make the markets shift significantly enough to be discerned by players in another group - it will come down to any magnifying effect that Frontier put in place to ensure that players *can* noticeably affect the market at all - I suppose that we will find this out in Beta.

 

[biggbno]

................... But atm, I don't see any way of you knowing whether it was a solo online player who destroyed the market on Mars, or whether it was 32 trader with slaved drives in a different instance from you, even if they were in the all group. If they are in the US, you are in Europe, chances are you'll never meet, because the system won't match you due to unfavorable ping and network differences.

And don't forget the timezone difference.

So basically a lot of the outcry that the reason for market collapse is from players that "hide" from the rest of the players, might be wrong. It may actually be people playing when you are not.

 

[Robert Maynard]

It's a bit rich to be talking about the Kickstarter and the dev's vision when the kickstarter specifically stated we would be easily able to tell players from NPCs and some of the devs, at least, have stated that if it was up to them the only option would be Ironman!

This bit:

We have nearly 50,000 backers so far - that would tend to suggest that a lot of people were content to back during the Kickstarter (25,681) and another 24,000 since - based on the outline originally given and the (remarkably open) development thereafter.

.... or this bit:

I think that, in the end, Frontier will make their decisions based on everything that they believe and taking into account discussions in the DDF - hopefully they will make the right calls going forward (they have shown themselves to be highly capable in this regard thus far).

Frontier created the DDF as a sounding board for topics that they felt required additional input from outside the design team. I sincerely doubt that all DDF members agree with all subsequent Frontier decisions based on the DDF topic discussions - you can't please all of the people all of the time. That does not, in my view, break the ongoing commitment that Frontier have in relation to delivering a game to Kickstarter backers.

 

[Mallikanth]

Wild west?

I've plenty of experience with Eve Online as a non-combatant and believe it or not, I've enjoyed the 'griefing' in so much as the gank squads, chases, station camping etc are part of the game.

With sufficient information as to what's outside of a station, what's happening near 'x' then you can make an informed decision to go there or not. This obviously assumes you're in or heading to a populated system where there would be such information. Heading out into the 'wilder' areas and information would be limited.

It's all part of the gameplay in my opinion but how ED is going to communicate such information, if at all, is not known to me.

If no such system is going to be in place then there is presumably going to be some form of 'report' function which, in my opinion, will itself break gameplay immersion.

I want bad guys out there as much as good guys

 

[warbaby2]

Given that NPCs will massively outnumber PCs and that the background simulation runs 24/7 with NPC market modification, I remain sceptical that players in one group will make the markets shift significantly enough to be discerned by players in another group - it will come down to any magnifying effect that Frontier put in place to ensure that players *can* noticeably affect the market at all - I suppose that we will find this out in Beta.

Exactly... that's a major fact many people still don't seam to fully understand. The simulated universe ED (and Star Citizen) features is nothing like the purely player driven sandbox EVE is... pilots in Elite are nothing like the half-god like beeings capsuleers are. They don't build ships and stations, they can't greatly influence the markets and politics on a stellar level... heck, they can't even fly capital ships.

 

[PacalB]

Where do I state this in what you quoted? If you read my other posts you'd see that this is exactly what I was trying to tell to Thorn Black, who always ended up with the DDF being the alpha backer way to change the game.

Edit: like for instance here: http://forums.frontier.co.uk/showpost.php?p=423043&postcount=441

Apologies, I was skimming this annoying squat of an thread, and the " I stand by ... ect ect " part I misread as another one of these whining sessions going on about FD pandering to so called carebears. Apologies there.

 

[hunvagy]

Apologies, I was skimming this annoying squat of an thread, and the " I stand by ... ect ect " part I misread as another one of these whining sessions going on about FD pandering to so called carebears. Apologies there.

No worries, I guess it could seem like that, as it came after long and probably very boring tirade of mine about actually reading the DDF threads before jumping the shark. Guess we are all just antsy for Friday, to finally play like them Alphas do

 

[Space_Killer69]

How do you win Elite?

There does seem to be an increased surge of posters who seem determined to try to steer ED into becoming a shallow copy of EvE. I honestly think they've not grasped the basis of the previous games in the series, or the direction of it's current incarnation.

My opinion, (quite often wrong.)

ED - isn't player centric - Sorry but you're no longer daddies little wallflower, the galaxy doesn't revolve around you anymore. You're just a small cog in a big machine. If you're really good then you may be able to influence the outcome in small ways.

ED - isn't clan/guild/org centric. Yep you and your gang aren't the meanest, rottenest,tootinest bad boys on the hood anymore. Why? Cause by design you haven't got a hood. Currently you won't get one either, (subject to change). ED isn't "just a game", in some respects its the culmination of series spanning 30 years and quite possibly a lifetimes dream for one man. A man who wants to give us a seamless, as scientifically accurate as possible, procedurally generated galaxy to play in. The current direction would indicate he's not ready to let people start building walls around chunks of that galaxy just yet. If you can see it you can go there - imagine you can go anywhere, but not that place. Epsilon Eriadnae thats Reddit Central, Beetlegeuse? sorry now named Goonville, Oh and the Clusterf**k coalition have just staked a claim to Barnards Star you you better drop those computers off quick. That's not to say getting there won't be a challenge in it's own right, just that the gameplay will create the challenge, individual players will create the challenge not groups of overhyped, neo- napoleons living their lives through a computer monitor. You can still hang out with your mate, have some lolz and pawn the other guys case they had the temerity to pay 10 bucks to the wrong forum. You just ain't going to be able to dominate my or anyone else's gaming experience for the salty tears and hate mail.

Risk/Reward - yep there's risk, there's rewards for taking risks. However the's also consequences. Rather than allow the game to descend into a cesspit of ganking and griefing from the off and then spend the next ten years trying to fix the problem. FD are trying to moderate the problem early, that's not to say they won't get it right first time but they get points for trying. You can be a PK'er randomly murdering anyone you come across, but there are consequences, you can grief someone for that extra special feeling of epeeny tiny weenyness but eventually the system will catch up with you.

Bottom line, you can have fun, but if you fun comes from making other peoples lives a misery it's going to be that little bit less satisfying for you, but a whole lot more enjoyable for the majority of other people.

So my answer to how do you win Elite - however you want to, or not at all. As long as it's fun along the way.

 

[Zak Gordon]

If i know it would be solo only i would go and simply pirate the game and play solo off the feed and all societies in it. Get borred and trash the game. Forget that it was ever there.

I had thought this thread might be different, but this is just the classic example of why these types of threads, however well intentioned just come down to the Me! me! MEEE! issue that pretty much plagues ALL MP online gaming.

And also they do pretty much come down to ex-EVE players that want ED to be like that game, getting all huffy because Frontier are making a game with a broader appeal that includes the original players of the Elite series.

Some good posts have been made, but also the typical selfish posts of the wanna-be griefer having THEIR fun potentially spoiled due to the vast array of solutions to the issues of MP online gaming that Frontier have decided to include in ED.

The bottom line is we all have a CHOICE. The ex-Eve griefer, the traditionalist SP Elite player, the group traders that what PvP but also safe places etc. Choice. I can't believe a few people are throwing a tantrum about having actual choice in their game. Very strange (but not surprising for a certain personality type).

At this stage of the game i doubt much can change drastically, but with all the choices available it would seem 99% of players can have the kind of game experience they prefer, which is a pretty damn clever solution.

I have nothing more to add, and roll on release day

 

[Saxxon]

The "Iron Curtain" proposal

This debate is rather volatile so a simple solution that should completely satisfy both camps in this debate. I realize this will be more fracture for the community but that is already so bad I really don't see a big impact.

Two completely separate galaxies divided by an "iron curtain" with separate events, histories and developments within the galaxy along with of course separate economies.

One side with all the safety nets and security of the hiding mechanics and grouping mechanisms to render an mmo basically a corpg or solo online experience.

The other side runs a "all" and "ironman" group only without any "ignore", "group" and any other features that we all know will offer cloaking to some degree for an advantage. This will be more to a true mmo experience.

Sounds fair to me and would get my money no questions asked. If the only option is the grouping setup as I understand it now it will not result in my purchase of the product.

Once again isn't this an elegant solution that solves all of these problems discussed here and allows complete freedom in how people can choose to play? This solution should satisfy all and stop the insistence that people force their playstyle on others. It will increase the games popularity and player retention for the long-term.

Frontier is poised with an opportunity to grab a "huge" market share with the timing of the release window of this product if the product has broad consumer appeal.

 

[Viajero]

Once again isn't this an elegant solution that solves all of these problems discussed here and allows complete freedom in how people can choose to play? This solution should satisfy all and stop the insistence that people force their playstyle on others. It will increase the games popularity and player retention for the long-term.

Frontier is poised with an opportunity to grab a "huge" market share with the timing of the release window of this product if the product has broad consumer appeal.

Already proposed something similar to this precisely in the first page of this thread.

The vastness of the galaxy indeed allows for areas of it with different "privacy grouping" settings indeed. That same vastness means that any area of it dedicated to open PVP gameplay (weather "territorial" or not) will still be minute within the grand scheme of things.

Even if we had several thousands of PC online at any given time willing to embark in this game play mode I dont foresee them needing more than a few several hundreds of systems at most to play for. The area in question could be dynamically adjusted based on FD monitoring of player demand and participation in this kind of game play mode.

FD could also easily come up with the lore and rational to explain the existence of this PC driven and "contested" region of the galaxy.

Only comment to your view is that I dont necessarily see the need for an Iron Courtain at all. You can have commanders smoothly moving in and out of that dedicated open PVP area as they wish, subject to the local "privacy grouping" settings as appropriate.

 

[Saxxon]

I read your post and completely understand it but, some simply do not want cloaking mechanics that would make a Romulan jealous.

Your idea would involve some major code rework and all the associated bugs and hitches that come with it. My proposal simply removes some functions available to the player which would be minimal changes to the client and no changes to server coding and architecture.

For example only let's just say my change would excite the purchasers of DayZ and get them to buy ED. That would easily be over a million sales.

 

[Aewarin Jameson]

The vastness of the galaxy indeed allows for areas of it with different "privacy grouping" settings indeed. That same vastness means that any area of it dedicated to open PVP gameplay (weather "territorial" or not) will still be minute within the grand scheme of things

This would be .. odd to say the least.

You can only fight another player in a specific region of space - I shoot you outside of these regions and nothing happens

I prefer the FD solution thanks:

- Shoot someone, and without a bounty you become a criminal
- Murder someone and the bounty significantly increases
- With a large enough bounty you become a juicy target to Bounty Hunters (PC/NPC)
- With a criminal record over time you become noticed by the Navy / Police
- As a criminal then you're effectively forced to Anarchy systems to feel "safe" and then then that's a risk

Look - space is dangerous. You're going to get shot by PCs and NPCs - more so in Anarchy systems; less so in lawful systems. If you behave the majority of space regions are open to you - if you misbehave then less and less regions of space are open to you.

Logical ... realistic ... no "magical" barriers.

Bottom line - you're not going to meet other real players very often due to the vastness of inhabited space (70LY across I think) unless you deliberately mean to do so (friends for example) or you're drawn to an event. The game isn't being designed purely as a PvP combat game - it's a space, trade, exploration, combat game.

Stop stressing about being killed and concentrate on what the game will bring.

 

[Faerie]

Stop stressing about being killed and concentrate on what the game will bring.

Isn't that what this whole thread has been about ? That there are players who are NOT prepared to accept whatever the game brings & who want to be protected against it ?

 

[Viajero]

This would be .. odd to say the least.

You can only fight another player in a specific region of space - I shoot you outside of these regions and nothing happens

I prefer the FD solution thanks:

- Shoot someone, and without a bounty you become a criminal
- Murder someone and the bounty significantly increases
- With a large enough bounty you become a juicy target to Bounty Hunters (PC/NPC)
- With a criminal record over time you become noticed by the Navy / Police
- As a criminal then you're effectively forced to Anarchy systems to feel "safe" and then then that's a risk

Look - space is dangerous. You're going to get shot by PCs and NPCs - more so in Anarchy systems; less so in lawful systems. If you behave the majority of space regions are open to you - if you misbehave then less and less regions of space are open to you.

Logical ... realistic ... no "magical" barriers.

Bottom line - you're not going to meet other real players very often due to the vastness of inhabited space (70LY across I think) unless you deliberately mean to do so (friends for example) or you're drawn to an event. The game isn't being designed purely as a PvP combat game - it's a space, trade, exploration, combat game.

Stop stressing about being killed and concentrate on what the game will bring.

What do you mean nothing happens? You can shoot anyone you want anywhere you are as long as you can see him/her.

Some systems closer to faction controlled space (Federation, Empire etc) will add "consequences" to your actions, other systems far from controlled factions may not. There is no difference or change to that in our proposal, and if you saw one, we didnt explain ourselves clearly.

Nothing of what you say above will actually change. The only thing we are suggesting to be changed in those dedicated areas is that you dont have the option anymore to set yourself into a "Solo" group or a "Private" group. That is all.

There is no barriers. I dont think Iron Wallas are necessary at all. In my proposal you can move freely between all areas in the galaxy, including this one. Again the only difference is the "privacy" settings. Other than that you would be able to do there everything else you can do anywhere else in the galaxy.

Personally I am not stressing about anything, game is going to be plenty fine as is. I considered myself a fairly balanced solo, PVE, co-op and PVP player.

My proposal simply adds one more option and dimension to the game over and above what is going to be delivered. It is not a zero sum game, it is not detracting or taking away a single comma of what is planned so far. Quite the contrary, it is adding a new game play dimension: That of a transparent (i.e. no "Private" or "Solo" groups) 100% player driven PVP format in a dedicated area of the galaxy.

For this to work FD would need to develop additional content for that area to ensure the player actions have a good motivation, possibly leading to a "territorial" struggle, i.e. key resource planets, trade routes, commercial or manufacturing hubs etc. The size of the dedicated area itself would maybe even need to be dynamically adjusted based on number of players willing to participate etc.

The lore and rational for the existence of such area could be probably easily defined by FD... etc etc.

The galaxy is vast enough to spare a few several hundred systems for this, surely.

 

[technome]

Isn't that what this whole thread has been about ? That there are players who are NOT prepared to accept whatever the game brings & who want to be protected against it ?

No, it's not.

It's that there are players who are NOT prepared to accept whatever the game brings & who would like to turn it into nothing more than their own personal battle arena.

 

[Saxxon]

No, it's not.

It's that there are players who are NOT prepared to accept whatever the game brings & who would like to turn it into nothing more than their own personal battle arena.

No, it's not.

It's that there are players who are NOT prepared to accept whatever the game brings & who would like to turn it into nothing more than their own personal fluffy feel good game.

 

[JeffRyan]

Isn't that what this whole thread has been about ? That there are players who are NOT prepared to accept whatever the game brings & who want to be protected against it ?

No, it's not.

It's that there are players who are NOT prepared to accept whatever the game brings & who would like to turn it into nothing more than their own personal battle arena.

Both are correct and that's the crux of the matter, though I think technome is misunderstanding the motivation behind my OP a little. I'm not into PvP.

 

[Hootmon]

Not at first glance - my wish would be for it to require at least a basic scan to differentiate PC from NPC.

Perfect!

 

[Space_Killer69]

Oh do keep up at the back

It's about re-inventing EvE's NUL-SEC.

Things must be really bad over in New Eden since it stagnated into two alliances and all the NAP-Fests that must have brought. So the idea is to keep trying to re-invent a broken wheel, completly change the focus and direction of Elite and start all over again here.

Gent's PvP wise think more Faction Warfare not Empires in Space. With 32 player instances the game is more suited to small gang PvP and as you can't hold territory, or keep it with the instanced shards and technical limitations of the set up.

You've already got a fairly elegant solution, without trying to emulate another games core focus.

Apologies if this seems a little short but honestly read the DDF Archives to see some of the reasons why Elite is doing it it's own way. Even then Frontier are chosing to make their game their way and throwing numbers around like "a million Day-Z" players is non-sensical. You're not thinking big enough - We could paint half the ships pink and cover the other half in fur. Then make a play for 12 million WOW players.