Elite Babysitter...

[technome]

No, it's not.

It's that there are players who are NOT prepared to accept whatever the game brings & who would like to turn it into nothing more than their own personal fluffy feel good game.

Yeah, yeah. We all know what a small but vociferous minority think. We've been made abundantly clear on that. Fortunately, it's Frontier's vision that will decide the game's direction. I have every confidence they'll get it right.

 

[Aewarin Jameson]

What do you mean nothing happens? You can shoot anyone you want anywhere you are as long as you can see him/her.

Apologies - I think I misread your post. I thought you were proposing specific regions of space dedicated to PvP whereas in the rest you could not. (Knowing that my post perhaps makes more sense now )

Yes - there are regions of space that are controlled by The Federation; other regions controlled by the Alliance; and so on ... That will make space interesting for sure because you may find yourself one day deep in enemy territory and have to fight your way out.

Isn't that what this whole thread has been about ? That there are players who are NOT prepared to accept whatever the game brings & who want to be protected against it ?

Partly - the original post was bringing to public a thread in the DDF about what to do with persistent griefers, and how to deal with hackers. The thread has meandered about since with it (no surprise) coming back to PvP.

The population density over time will spread out and so you're more likely to meet NPCs.

NPC or player - if someone shoots you, or worse kills you, there are in-game mechanisms to deal with that. Personally I think they will be enough but we won't know until late Beta when we test them. Stressing now when there's no actual game to test serves no point other than to whip up a frenzy for nothing.

 

[Hootmon]

How do you win Elite?

There does seem to be an increased surge of posters who seem determined to try to steer ED into becoming a shallow copy of EvE. I honestly think they've not grasped the basis of the previous games in the series, or the direction of it's current incarnation.

My opinion, (quite often wrong.)

ED - isn't player centric - Sorry but you're no longer daddies little wallflower, the galaxy doesn't revolve around you anymore. You're just a small cog in a big machine. If you're really good then you may be able to influence the outcome in small ways.

ED - isn't clan/guild/org centric. Yep you and your gang aren't the meanest, rottenest,tootinest bad boys on the hood anymore. Why? Cause by design you haven't got a hood. Currently you won't get one either, (subject to change). ED isn't "just a game", in some respects its the culmination of series spanning 30 years and quite possibly a lifetimes dream for one man. A man who wants to give us a seamless, as scientifically accurate as possible, procedurally generated galaxy to play in. The current direction would indicate he's not ready to let people start building walls around chunks of that galaxy just yet. If you can see it you can go there - imagine you can go anywhere, but not that place. Epsilon Eriadnae thats Reddit Central, Beetlegeuse? sorry now named Goonville, Oh and the Clusterf**k coalition have just staked a claim to Barnards Star you you better drop those computers off quick. That's not to say getting there won't be a challenge in it's own right, just that the gameplay will create the challenge, individual players will create the challenge not groups of overhyped, neo- napoleons living their lives through a computer monitor. You can still hang out with your mate, have some lolz and pawn the other guys case they had the temerity to pay 10 bucks to the wrong forum. You just ain't going to be able to dominate my or anyone else's gaming experience for the salty tears and hate mail.

Risk/Reward - yep there's risk, there's rewards for taking risks. However the's also consequences. Rather than allow the game to descend into a cesspit of ganking and griefing from the off and then spend the next ten years trying to fix the problem. FD are trying to moderate the problem early, that's not to say they won't get it right first time but they get points for trying. You can be a PK'er randomly murdering anyone you come across, but there are consequences, you can grief someone for that extra special feeling of epeeny tiny weenyness but eventually the system will catch up with you.

Bottom line, you can have fun, but if you fun comes from making other peoples lives a misery it's going to be that little bit less satisfying for you, but a whole lot more enjoyable for the majority of other people.

So my answer to how do you win Elite - however you want to, or not at all. As long as it's fun along the way.

Excellent post. +1

 

[Viajero]

I read your post and completely understand it but, some simply do not want cloaking mechanics that would make a Romulan jealous.

Your idea would involve some major code rework and all the associated bugs and hitches that come with it. My proposal simply removes some functions available to the player which would be minimal changes to the client and no changes to server coding and architecture.

No, no. I think we agree on principle. There is no need for a full range of security levels, I agree. The main change required is just to deny "Solo" or "Private" grouping options in a dedicated area of the galaxy, which incidentally would probably be really small anyways, although size would probably be dependent on number of players demanding this kind gameplay.

But there is no need for a complete separation either as you suggest. I dont see an issue with players just moving in and out of that dedicated area freely if they so wish. The only main difference, again, would be the "privacy" grouping settings.

 

[technome]

Both are correct and that's the crux of the matter, though I think technome is misunderstanding the motivation behind my OP a little. I'm not into PvP.

Well, I'm neither for, nor against, PvP. What I am most strongly against, though, is PvP being more than just a tiny part of the whole game. It should simply be something that is emergent from the many players interacting with the game, where their paths cross.

 

[Aewarin Jameson]

The main change required is just to deny "Solo" or "Private" grouping options in a dedicated area of the galaxy, which incidentally would probably be really small anyways, although size would probably be dependent on number of players demanding this kind gameplay

That doesn't make sense sorry. (I hope this time I read it correctly )

Why would you stop players from entering certain regions of space based upon their play style ? The fact that you can't see them, nor interact with them, means you shouldn't care about them either.

If the answer back is "I don't want them to affect the markets", which would be the only reason to lock them out, I would have to say in defence that if the market was affected that quickly and badly by a group of players in a private group then the market simulator is too sensitive and needs to be tweaked.

The groups (on paper) work just fine - you play with and how you like. Go anywhere - do anything.

 

[Wolf]

How do you win Elite?

There does seem to be an increased surge of posters who seem determined to try to steer ED into becoming a shallow copy of EvE. I honestly think they've not grasped the basis of the previous games in the series, or the direction of it's current incarnation.

My opinion, (quite often wrong.)

ED - isn't player centric - Sorry but you're no longer daddies little wallflower, the galaxy doesn't revolve around you anymore. You're just a small cog in a big machine. If you're really good then you may be able to influence the outcome in small ways.

ED - isn't clan/guild/org centric. Yep you and your gang aren't the meanest, rottenest,tootinest bad boys on the hood anymore. Why? Cause by design you haven't got a hood. Currently you won't get one either, (subject to change). ED isn't "just a game", in some respects its the culmination of series spanning 30 years and quite possibly a lifetimes dream for one man. A man who wants to give us a seamless, as scientifically accurate as possible, procedurally generated galaxy to play in. The current direction would indicate he's not ready to let people start building walls around chunks of that galaxy just yet. If you can see it you can go there - imagine you can go anywhere, but not that place. Epsilon Eriadnae thats Reddit Central, Beetlegeuse? sorry now named Goonville, Oh and the Clusterf**k coalition have just staked a claim to Barnards Star you you better drop those computers off quick. That's not to say getting there won't be a challenge in it's own right, just that the gameplay will create the challenge, individual players will create the challenge not groups of overhyped, neo- napoleons living their lives through a computer monitor. You can still hang out with your mate, have some lolz and pawn the other guys case they had the temerity to pay 10 bucks to the wrong forum. You just ain't going to be able to dominate my or anyone else's gaming experience for the salty tears and hate mail.

Risk/Reward - yep there's risk, there's rewards for taking risks. However the's also consequences. Rather than allow the game to descend into a cesspit of ganking and griefing from the off and then spend the next ten years trying to fix the problem. FD are trying to moderate the problem early, that's not to say they won't get it right first time but they get points for trying. You can be a PK'er randomly murdering anyone you come across, but there are consequences, you can grief someone for that extra special feeling of epeeny tiny weenyness but eventually the system will catch up with you.

Bottom line, you can have fun, but if you fun comes from making other peoples lives a misery it's going to be that little bit less satisfying for you, but a whole lot more enjoyable for the majority of other people.

So my answer to how do you win Elite - however you want to, or not at all. As long as it's fun along the way.

This! +1
Luckily someone who shares my thoughts about this had more skill and time to write them down

 

[Viajero]

That doesn't make sense sorry. (I hope this time I read it correctly )

Why would you stop players from entering certain regions of space based upon their play style ? The fact that you can't see them, nor interact with them, means you shouldn't care about them either.

If the answer back is "I don't want them to affect the markets", which would be the only reason to lock them out, I would have to say in defence that if the market was affected that quickly and badly by a group of players in a private group then the market simulator is too sensitive and needs to be tweaked.

The groups (on paper) work just fine - you play with and how you like. Go anywhere - do anything.

Hmm, the idea is not stopping anyone from entering anywhere! Anyone would be able to enter this dedicated zone too. You just wouldnt be able to select "Solo" or "Private" groups. That is all. But you, and anyone else, would be most welcome! We actually care about you!

No, caring or not caring is not the concern here, honest. The idea behind this dedicated "transparent" area of the galaxy is simply to cater for that part of the community who would like a more open and upfront PVP kind of gameplay where no one can hide under private groups.

In this region ideally the game would be for the most part player driven, and based on the content in those systems it could perfectly well end up in territorial struggles or what not, with NPC taking only a secondary role by being subject to escort hire, patrolling duties or the like.

The fact the galaxy has 400 billion of stars is the key enabler as I dont expect that this kind of region would require more than a few hundreds of systems, and therefore it wont affect in any material way the actual game as is in any way or form. Although the actual size would depend on demand and how many players are willing to play this in the galaxy. But that is somethng FD could conceivably track dynamically.

It has nothing to do with the market or the economy either. It has to do simply with gameplay preferences, in this case a game play based on open and transparent PVP with fully player driven content and actions (as opposed to developer artificially injected PVP events for example).

We fully appreciate the lone wolf tradition and the "one pilot and the galaxy" Elite concept, but times change, new generations of players come into the game and surely there is some piece of room to spare for this in a 400 billion star galaxy? ED is in a unique situation to be able to add and expand to additional gameplay options without detracting or taking away anything at all from the existing design.

 

[Robert Maynard]

No, caring or not caring is not the concern here, honest. The idea behind this dedicated "transparent" area of the galaxy is simply to cater for that part of the community who would like a more open and upfront PVP kind of gameplay where no one can hide under private groups.

What's the difference between:

1) not seeing players in the same area as you because they are in private groups or solo;
2) not seeing players because they avoid areas where solo / private groups are switched off.

 

[Saxxon]

It would be nice to hear a comment from Frontier concerning this discussion since it has turned into the 800 pound gorilla in the room.

 

[JeffRyan]

It would be nice to hear a comment from Frontier concerning this discussion since it has turned into the 800 pound gorilla in the room.

Those pro the current system would say we should just accept that Frontier are done with this already.

 

[Mephane]

The main change required is just to deny "Solo" or "Private" grouping options in a dedicated area of the galaxy, which incidentally would probably be really small anyways, although size would probably be dependent on number of players demanding this kind gameplay.

I don't see this change as required at all, but instead detrimental and indeed counter to immersion. "Oh you are logged into the Solo Group, now for totally out-of-character reasons you are not allowed to jump into this system."

 

[Viajero]

What's the difference between:

1) not seeing players in the same area as you because they are in private groups or solo;
2) not seeing players because they avoid areas where solo / private groups are switched off.

Mainly because Private or Solo group mechanics could eventually be exploited by some of the concerned PVP participants in order to get a survival or competitive advantage in some way or form. This concern has been voiced elsewhere before (When can you change your group settings? Should you be able to "ignore" a key opponent in a transparent PVP confrontation while you kill his escorts in a separate instance? etc) but so far I have not seen a dev post giving definite resolution to all the potential issues around these. Lots of trust is put on devs but so far I have not seen any conclusive evidence... maybe at the restricted Alpha forums?

At any rate the proposal also combined this issue with the concept of a fully player driven action and game play. One that can be sustained over time and give meaning to the PVP context. The best way to create that sustained motivation (imho) is to leave the players themselves guide it. At the moment most of the PVP we foresee will be just around ad hoc (and possibly "one offs") developer injected events.

I, and possibly others, believe that given the size of the galaxy it could be possible to habilitate a quite small area of it and facilitate that transparent and 100% player driven story and content, territorial struggles etc.

That kind of fully player driven game play is by definition purely PVP and would not necessitate from "Private" or "Solo" groupings, especially when potential exploits can still be taken advantage of by using them.

 

[Robert Maynard]

At any rate the proposal also combined this issue with the concept of a fully player driven action and game play. One that can be sustained over time and give meaning to the PVP context. The best way to create that sustained motivation (imho) is to leave the players themselves guide it. At the moment most of the PVP we foresee will be just around ad hoc (and possibly "one offs") developer injected events.

I, and possibly others, believe that given the size of the galaxy it could be possible to habilitate a quite small area of it and facilitate that transparent and 100% player driven story and content, territorial struggles etc.

So, EVE with cockpits?

 

[Mephane]

So, EVE with cockpits?

Apparently. I am quite tired of this discussion and only chime in every few pages to see yet another "this is needed" "this is required" "we must have" post that copies the odd feature or design issue from Eve and wants to bolt it onto ED for the sole purpose of creating a Mandatory PvP Zone.

 

[Aewarin Jameson]

You just wouldnt be able to select "Solo" or "Private" groups. That is all.

Why ?

You won't see them, nor can they affect you, so why does it matter ?

What difference does it make ?

 

[Saxxon]

David Braben even commented and seemed excited at emergent gameplay surfacing in the alpha asteroid field area where players formed patrols to protect miners from attacks of pirates. Well, the layers of avoidance and protection effectively kill this type of emergent gameplay where open straightforward gameplay without layers upon layers of protection actually drive this emergent behavior.

 

[Viajero]

So, EVE with cockpits?

Not at all. Rather ED with transparent PVP gameplay.

ED galaxy can afford the space for it. EVE universe cant do the opposite, so very different cases.

At any rate, remember this would not take away or detract at all form the current planned game feature set and planned deliverables. So the idea would not be replacing the current design with another at all. It would only add to it.

ED is in the unique situation to be able to add and expand its game play options (without removing anything already existing), given FD resources and player demand for it.

 

[Aewarin Jameson]

Well, the layers of avoidance and protection effectively kill this type of emergent gameplay where open straightforward gameplay without layers upon layers of protection actually drive this emergent behavior.

No it doesn't.

You're presumption is that EVERYONE will dive into private groups.

I am fairly confident that the player base will be larger than 50K on release (current estimate of backers) - sure, a large number of them will be offline / solo / group play .. and for the rest of us .. bring it on!

Don't make issues out of things that are not there!

Not at all. Rather ED with transparent PVP gameplay.

That's already available without FD having to do anything.

Start game - all pilots - Kill all the PCs you find, ensure you're aware of the ramifications of your actions, have fun!

 

[Juniper]

Spoiler

How do you win Elite?

There does seem to be an increased surge of posters who seem determined to try to steer ED into becoming a shallow copy of EvE. I honestly think they've not grasped the basis of the previous games in the series, or the direction of it's current incarnation.

My opinion, (quite often wrong.)

ED - isn't player centric - Sorry but you're no longer daddies little wallflower, the galaxy doesn't revolve around you anymore. You're just a small cog in a big machine. If you're really good then you may be able to influence the outcome in small ways.

ED - isn't clan/guild/org centric. Yep you and your gang aren't the meanest, rottenest,tootinest bad boys on the hood anymore. Why? Cause by design you haven't got a hood. Currently you won't get one either, (subject to change). ED isn't "just a game", in some respects its the culmination of series spanning 30 years and quite possibly a lifetimes dream for one man. A man who wants to give us a seamless, as scientifically accurate as possible, procedurally generated galaxy to play in. The current direction would indicate he's not ready to let people start building walls around chunks of that galaxy just yet. If you can see it you can go there - imagine you can go anywhere, but not that place. Epsilon Eriadnae thats Reddit Central, Beetlegeuse? sorry now named Goonville, Oh and the Clusterf**k coalition have just staked a claim to Barnards Star you you better drop those computers off quick. That's not to say getting there won't be a challenge in it's own right, just that the gameplay will create the challenge, individual players will create the challenge not groups of overhyped, neo- napoleons living their lives through a computer monitor. You can still hang out with your mate, have some lolz and pawn the other guys case they had the temerity to pay 10 bucks to the wrong forum. You just ain't going to be able to dominate my or anyone else's gaming experience for the salty tears and hate mail.

Risk/Reward - yep there's risk, there's rewards for taking risks. However the's also consequences. Rather than allow the game to descend into a cesspit of ganking and griefing from the off and then spend the next ten years trying to fix the problem. FD are trying to moderate the problem early, that's not to say they won't get it right first time but they get points for trying. You can be a PK'er randomly murdering anyone you come across, but there are consequences, you can grief someone for that extra special feeling of epeeny tiny weenyness but eventually the system will catch up with you.

Bottom line, you can have fun, but if you fun comes from making other peoples lives a misery it's going to be that little bit less satisfying for you, but a whole lot more enjoyable for the majority of other people.

So my answer to how do you win Elite - however you want to, or not at all. As long as it's fun along the way.

I've just discovered this thread. This says everything I would want to say on this subject, much better than I could. +1.