Engineers Forcing players to kill soft targets or cops for materials

[777Driver]

Thank you kindly for the offer. My girlfriend coaxed into doing some cleaning in my apartment and I pretty much just snuck away from that for a cigarette break as I write this - but thank you for the offer - feel free to add psyantologist as a fwiend and I'll tag along on one of your future trips. Might learn a thing or two. Or twelve.
(I can hardly drive straight lines with the SRV, ..actually xD)

Will do mate

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I think you stated the issue right there. 5 pieces of yttrium in an hour... That's a lot of time driving around a planet. :\

If Yttrium was the only thing I found then yes it could be considered an issue, personally I don't think an hour driving is a long time, then again driving an SRV in VR is enjoyable for me, an hour doesn't seem like a long time. At the same time I am collecting Arsenic, Germanium & many other materials, normally with a friend or two.

 

[SirGirard]

Forcing me to destroy authority ships or scoop around in conflict zones is pretty much the biggest horse-doo-doo in Elite history. Forcing me to kill Haulers or Type-Xs to gather Materials is plain shameful. What kind of person comes up with ideas like this? And why? To generate "new gameplay"? This is insane! A certain grade of moral corruption might work for some role-players, but forcing it upon players for the most basic engineer mods stinks. A lot. I loved this game and the direction its going now is ruining it.

Errr............nobody forces you! Just don't do it!

 

[psyantologist]

Errr............nobody forces you! Just don't do it!

Yes, yes, I know I'm the donkey who whines about the carrot dangling in front of him. You could've just repped one of the 37 fellas who said exactly the same thing instead of stressing that you didn't read the thread ;P

 

[Leo Sagan]

It cannot be "easily found".

Yes it can, the howtos have been posted many times, *YOU* don't know how to find it easily, which is different. On average, I find 2 to 6 very rare mats per hour with the SRV. While it doesn't involve much skill, it requires a specific procedure. Ask / search for that instead of complaining, or wait for the easy mode to be implemented with the next point release.

 

[Codger]

Turn it into an adventure, that's what I did.

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/273210-The-Joy-of-Polonium

 

[psyantologist]

Yes it can, the howtos have been posted many times, *YOU* don't know how to find it easily, which is different. On average, I find 2 to 6 very rare mats per hour with the SRV. While it doesn't involve much skill, it requires a specific procedure. Ask / search for that instead of complaining, or wait for the easy mode to be implemented with the next point release.

You try to contractict me by just saying "no", cutting out my point (which you fail to address let alone refute) and then projecting your assumptions on me. Nice! You musta been the shooting star on the debate team!

I know how surface prospecting works. I read up on it. Extensively.
It is luck based, not skill based. Hence it isn't "easy".
Rolling a dice and getting sixes isn't "easy". You can get three in a row, sure. Or you don't get any sixes in twelve rolls. But it has nothing to do with difficulty. It's called "luck".

So if 2-6 is your "average", how many do you find during a bad hour? Zero, i imagine ;P Now picture someone who has two hours a day to do this - and let's say they have an "unlucky roll of dice" and get two bad hours with 0 as a net result. You think that's okay? Well, fine, keep your opinion. I disagree. I prefer skill-based gaming rather than spending time meta-gaming, doing research on how to prepare for a game of chance.

On that note, how can you admit it doesn't involve skill and in the same breath suggest to me to wait for "easy mode"? Do you even read your own stuff or listen to your thoughts before you write them down?

Apparently not. You prefer to complain about someone complaining. You hardly appear to have read my post. You're on a row! You get the cake!

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Turn it into an adventure, that's what I did.

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/273210-The-Joy-of-Polonium

You do have a better attitude than I do =] shared suffering is half the suffering.

 

[warlock]

I just kill what i can to get what i can (not in real life though) its just a game, honestly the npc's do not feel any pain, anger or frustration.

 

[Sunleader]

I just kill what i can to get what i can (not in real life though) its just a game, honestly the npc's do not feel any pain, anger or frustration.

Problem with that is that this Game is alot about Immersion.
And this Immersion Breaks when your Forced to go out of your Role.

I cannot Immerse myself to be a Bounty Hunter. When I am running a Cargo Ship into an Ice Ring to Mine for Gasses.

 

[Devari]

It cannot be "easily found". There is no skill involved. It's not about difficulty. It can be "randomly found" with no way for the player to do anything about it. That is plain dumb and makes no sense at all.

This is not true. As I keep saying in my other posts about mat gathering, there is a learning curve where you first need to learn HOW and WHERE to find any given material. If you haven't done this yet then of course you will be having trouble with gathering mats and may even be under the impression that it is somehow "completely random" when it most certainly is not. In the case of Yttrium, the first issue you aren't understanding is that you need to find a planet that actually drops it. This is not "random" in the sense that it is fixed for any given planet and once you find a planet that drops it this will not change. So first you need to identify what planet drops it and look on those planets specifically. You can do this easily now by reading the Galnet posts at Engineering bases. Second, you need to know how to read the SRV wave scanner and know something about mat drops and planetary terrain. This is too detailed a topic for me to get into here but you can most definitely increase your chances of finding Yttrium if you know you know how to look for metallic meteorites (combination of wave scanner reading and intelligent use of terrain). Finally, you can find both Yttrium and Polonium from mission boards. So the process is definitely not as "random" as you might think, but first you need to get over the learning curve and know how and where to find it.

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YI know how surface prospecting works. I read up on it. Extensively.
It is luck based, not skill based. Hence it isn't "easy".

No, it is most definitely skill based, for various reasons. There is skill in identifying the types of terrain that are more likely to drop metallic meteories, and in recognizing when you need to move to a different part of the planet. There is skill at reading the wave scanner. There is skill at driving the SRV properly at high speed to minimize your time spent travelling between meteories. There is even skill at choosing a planet where the gravity and terrain are optimal for SRV driving and mat gathering. If you just drive around aimlessly thinking it's random then you are either not learning any of these things, or you have not spent enough time gathering mats to recognize the impact of all of these factors and how you can influence them. The does not mean that these factors are 100% controllable, but there are MANY controllable factors and the overall process is most certainly not "random" or "luck based" as you seem to be thinking.

 

[Ozram]

This is not true. As I keep saying in my other posts about mat gathering, there is a learning curve where you first need to learn HOW and WHERE to find any given material. If you haven't done this yet then of course you will be having trouble with gathering mats and may even be under the impression that it is somehow "completely random" when it most certainly is not. In the case of Yttrium, the first issue you aren't understanding is that you need to find a planet that actually drops it. This is not "random" in the sense that it is fixed for any given planet and once you find a planet that drops it this will not change. So first you need to identify what planet drops it and look on those planets specifically. You can do this easily now by reading the Galnet posts at Engineering bases Second, you need to know how to read the SRV wave scanner and know something about mat drops and planetary terrain. This is too detailed a topic for me to get into here but you can most definitely increase your chances of finding Yttrium if you know you know how to look for metallic meteorites (combination of wave scanner reading and intelligent use of terrain). Finally, you can find both Yttrium and Polonium from mission boards. So the process is definitely not as "random" as you might think, but first you need to get over the learning curve and know how and where to find it.

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No, it is most definitely skill based, for various reasons. There is skill in identifying the types of terrain that are more likely to drop metallic meteories, and in recognizing when you need to move to a different part of the planet. There is skill at reading the wave scanner. There is skill at driving the SRV properly at high speed to minimize your time spent travelling between meteories. There is even skill at choosing a planet where the gravity and terrain are optimal for SRV driving and mat gathering. If you just drive around aimlessly thinking it's random then you are either not learning any of these things, or you have not spent enough time gathering mats to recognize the impact of all of these factors and how you can influence them. The does not mean that these factors are 100% controllable, but they are most certainly not 100% random as you seem to be thinking.

In short, from memory:
A) From Ship
1) right planet
2) mountainous region (not impact crater)
B) From SRV
3)thick bar at bottom of screen
4) noise is not the tick tick but a weird vroom sorta thing
5) follow the thick bar and keep it in front of you as it narrows in length (but not width)
Sound about right?
Helpful threads:
https://www.reddit.com/r/EliteDange...how_i_gathered_all_the_mats_for_a_rank_5_fsd/

https://www.reddit.com/r/EliteDangerous/comments/4lf5ud/psa_finding_rare_materials/

https://steamcommunity.com/app/359320/discussions/0/350533172691788450/

https://www.reddit.com/r/EliteDangerous/comments/44k2gc/fast_jumponium_harvesting_in_the_bubble/

 

[Sunleader]

This is not true. As I keep saying in my other posts about mat gathering, there is a learning curve where you first need to learn HOW and WHERE to find any given material. If you haven't done this yet then of course you will be having trouble with gathering mats and may even be under the impression that it is somehow "completely random" when it most certainly is not. In the case of Yttrium, the first issue you aren't understanding is that you need to find a planet that actually drops it. This is not "random" in the sense that it is fixed for any given planet and once you find a planet that drops it this will not change. So first you need to identify what planet drops it and look on those planets specifically. You can do this easily now by reading the Galnet posts at Engineering bases Second, you need to know how to read the SRV wave scanner and know something about mat drops and planetary terrain. This is too detailed a topic for me to get into here but you can most definitely increase your chances of finding Yttrium if you know you know how to look for metallic meteorites (combination of wave scanner reading and intelligent use of terrain). Finally, you can find both Yttrium and Polonium from mission boards. So the process is definitely not as "random" as you might think, but first you need to get over the learning curve and know how and where to find it.

He is not entirely wrong.
Truth is that no matter how much you Shift around Chances the thing itself is still Random.

You can Increase or Decrease your Chances Based on certain Decisions and Knowledge of course.
Which is another thing which Unfortunately is in no way Explained in the Game or following any Logical System (Albeit FD Announced this to be Fixed in the Future as they will Include Methods of Scanning Planets to See what Ressources they contain etc)

However. The Final Result is and Stays a Randomly Generated one
60% or 20% Chance is still just a Chance which means its still Random

If your Unlucky you will still need Hours to get the Material you want
This is even Worse thanks to aforementioned lack of Identification. An Metal Content World might or might not Contain the Ressources you need.
Meaning the only way to know is to Check there or know of a List made by other Players where the Material is.

 

[Devari]

He is not entirely wrong.

Yes, he is, because he claimed the process was "random" and "luck based" with "no skill involved". He clearly had no understanding of all the factors that can be controlled or influenced. His claim is wrong, full stop. He did not say that there are "certain factors" that are random or luck-based, this was how he described the entire process.

Truth is that no matter how much you Shift around Chances the thing itself is still Random.

No, not really. If you know what you are doing you can consistently get 1-2 Yttrium or Polonium per hour on average from a planet that drops it. Just because there are certain factors that are out of your control does not make the overall process "random" with "no skill involved". You could make the same claim of "randomness" for any skill-based task as there is always some degree of randomness in any activity. Take, for example, firing a rifle. Most people would consider this a VERY skill-based task but there are a large number of "random" factors that remain partially or even completely outside of your control, including:
-Target movement (can be very unpredictable).
-Wind (can be measured but can also change randomly).
-Variations in ammunition (even with match-grade ammo).
-Barrel temperature (varies as rounds are fired through the rifle).
-Optics calibration (never completely perfect even when properly zeroing-in the scope).
-Heart rate/breathing (not completely controllable even with training).

And so on. Yet no one would claim that a marksman's ability to hit his target with a rifle was overall a "random" task just because there are certain factors that aren't completely controllable by the shooter.

You can Increase or Decrease your Chances Based on certain Decisions and Knowledge of course.
Which is another thing which Unfortunately is in no way Explained in the Game or following any Logical System (Albeit FD Announced this to be Fixed in the Future as they will Include Methods of Scanning Planets to See what Ressources they contain etc)

However. The Final Result is and Stays a Randomly Generated one
60% or 20% Chance is still just a Chance which means its still Random

If your Unlucky you will still need Hours to get the Material you want
This is even Worse thanks to aforementioned lack of Identification. An Metal Content World might or might not Contain the Ressources you need.
Meaning the only way to know is to Check there or know of a List made by other Players where the Material is.

That is sort of the entire point here, there are MANY ways to increase your chances of finding any given material. There is still a certain amount of randomness due to the RNG for mat drops but you can still dramatically increase your chances of finding a material by doing all of the things that have been mentioned in this thread. When someone claims it's "random" or "luck based" and doesn't even acknowledge or understand these factors, they are simply wrong. They are not "sort of right", they just have no idea what they're doing. Same as if they tried to claim that firing a rifle at a target was a "random" task because of all the factors I mentioned above. Saying something has "random" elements while being able to identify the various factors that are controllable is a completely different statement than claiming that the overall process is "random". Like I've mentioned in other threads, the amount of hyperbole I've seen in some of these threads is ridiculous. It's as if certain players encounter something they can't control 100% and they suddenly give up completely and start acting as if it's a completely "random" process that they have no control over whatsoever.

 

[Leo Sagan]

You try to contractict me by just saying "no", cutting out my point

Fine : I unlocked every engineer and I upgraded rank 5 all my ships, but despite the fact that *you* are the one struggling, *you* know better.

If you decide to really try, here are the links you need, but as they were pretty easy to find in the forums (one is stickied dammit !), I doubt you'll read them, let alone try to do what they recommend.

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/261466-How-to-effeciently-approach-engineering
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...eled-to-grade-5-a-brag-a-guide-and-a-feedback

Anyway, your problem alone shows you're doing it wrong : you should *never* look for one very rare mat on a planet but several mats at the same time. You are monotasking *and* you don't know how to find mats efficiently. This is the less productive way to craft in this game, GG.

 

[psyantologist]

This is not true.

So "reading" or "googling" is "a skill" in a gaming-related sense in your book, ... alright! You bested me! I yield! It's all about skill! Of course! I see the light now!

most certainly not "random" or "luck based" as you seem to be thinking.

Most certainly! For sure!

Are you kidding me?! Maybe just very successfully kidding yourself. Most certainly.

 

[psyantologist]

Yes, he is, because he claimed the process was "random" and "luck based" with "no skill involved".

You can add as many factors as you like on a luck and chance based system. It stays luck based. Based on luck. What's so hard to understand here? I did not intend to write a scientific essay about surface mining for my PhD, in case you were assuming that. I was upset. Stuff like this is ruining the game, in my occasionally humble and oftentimes not so humble opinion.

And reading forum threads made by people who painstakingly figured stuff out, with their honourable efforts significantly upping other players chances of finding what they need is undeserving of the term skill in this context. You disagree. Fine. I did not write this to convince anyone. I think you are kidding yourself. Just look at the time you spent arguing here! You could've found a ton of polonium instead! ...well... at least, with a lil luck, you might've

 

[Devari]

So "reading" or "googling" is "a skill" in a gaming-related sense in your book, ... alright! You bested me! I yield! It's all about skill! Of course! I see the light now! Most certainly! For sure!

Are you kidding me?! Maybe just very successfully kidding yourself. Most certainly.

How exactly do you think people figured out all of those factors I listed? They developed their SKILLS or KNOWLEDGE in those areas by learning how to drive the SRV, read the wave scanner, identify patterns of planetary mat drops, compile databases based on their experiences, and so on. Just because you don't have the inclination or ability to develop your own skills in those areas of gameplay doesn't mean that it's a "random" process with "no skill involved".

You can add as many factors as you like on a luck and chance based system. It stays luck based. Based on luck. What's so hard to understand here? I did not intend to write a scientific essay about surface mining for my PhD, in case you were assuming that. I was upset. Stuff like this is ruining the game, in my occasionally humble and oftentimes not so humble opinion.

No, a process does not stay "luck based" with "no skill involved" when you can actually control or influence many of those factors. You clearly ignored my example about rifle shooting which also has many "random" factors that can't be controlled but remains a skill/knowledge based task. It's the same with SRV driving and mat gathering, if you know what you're doing, i.e., if you have the skills to know how and where to find the mats, you can get consistent results from your efforts, same as how a marksman can get consistent results even if they may still have an occasionally "lucky" or "unlucky" shot.

And reading forum threads made my people who painstakingly figured stuff out, with their honourable efforts significantly upping other players chances of finding what they need is undeserving of the term skill in this context. You disagree. Fine. I did not write this to convince anyone. I think you are kidding yourself. Just look at the time you spent arguing here! You could've found a ton of polonium instead! ...well.. with a lil luck, you might've

Again, you're wrong here. The players who are finding Yttrium and Polonium clearly know what they're doing and they also know how to drive the SRV. That is a skill-based and/or a knowledge-based task depending on the specific aspect of mat gathering we're referring to. Using skill and/or knowledge to achieve good results from a system that may have an element of "randomness" does not make the overall process "random" or "luck-based", in fact it's the exact opposite of what you're trying to claim.

For some reason certain players seems to be overwhelmed with hatred for the RNG to the point that no matter how detailed the responses are it's like trying to reason with a 5 year old having a tantrum. I'm sorry if you think that other players being more skilled or more knowledgeable about gameplay isn't "fair" or that your personal lack of skill or knowledge in this area makes you think that your results are "random". Unfortunately you aren't making any coherent points in your responses other than illustrating your own lack of skill/knowledge in the area of material gathering.

 

[psyantologist]

Fine : I unlocked every engineer and I upgraded rank 5 all my ships, but despite the fact that *you* are the one struggling, *you* know better.

If you decide to really try, here are the links you need, but as they were pretty easy to find in the forums (one is stickied dammit !), I doubt you'll read them, let alone try to do what they recommend.

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/261466-How-to-effeciently-approach-engineering
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...eled-to-grade-5-a-brag-a-guide-and-a-feedback

Anyway, your problem alone shows you're doing it wrong : you should *never* look for one very rare mat on a planet but several mats at the same time. You are monotasking *and* you don't know how to find mats efficiently. This is the less productive way to craft in this game, GG.

Well, thanks for the links - yet I already read these. And others. I stated so. In this thread. I forgot the detail about recent volcanic activity. My bad.

But, yeah, sure, keep making your assumptions about me. I am the only person who is bothered by this mechanic. I am doing it wrong. Everything is fine. Explains perfectly why my OP got repped by a coupla dozen forum users who seem able to relate to it, despite the admittadly poor, whiney, ragey wording of it.

Not everyone enjoys driving around in the SRV. That is the core of the issue, I'd wager. I bought a space sim to fly around in space. Now there's dangly carrots, improving ship performance while flying around in space. Yummy yummy carrots, they are.

 

[Devari]

Well, thanks for the links - yet I already read these. And others. I stated so. In this thread. I forgot the detail about recent volcanic activity. My bad.

But, yeah, sure, keep making your assumptions about me. I am the only person who is bothered by this mechanic. I am doing it wrong. Everything is fine. Explains perfectly why my OP got repped by a coupla dozen forum users who seem able to relate to it, despite the admittadly poor, whiney, ragey wording of it.

Complaining about something does not solve the problem and at this point we have more than enough threads full of complaints. FD is quite aware of the frustrations with mat gathering and have already taken steps to improve it (planetary mat locations in Galnet) and are making further changes next month (using detailed surface scanner to identify materials). At this point you have various options. You can keep whining, you can adapt to the situation that we currently have or you can wait for things to get better next month. The first option, which seems to be what you've chosen, is not going to get you very far and is certainly not going to give you any Yttrium or Polonium.

Not everyone enjoys driving around in the SRV. That is the core of the issue, I'd wager. I bought a space sim to fly around in space. Now there's dangly carrots, improving ship performance while flying around in space. Yummy yummy carrots, they are.

That is a completely different issue. Saying you don't enjoy driving the SRV (and many players don't) isn't something FD is going to fix for you, nor is it something that anyone else really cares about. If you really can't stand SRV driving, you can get mats you need from mining as well. You can even get very rare mats from missions, including Yttrium and Polonium. You have many options here, and have instead focused on complaining and ignoring attempts to help you learn how to get the most out of the SRV driving/mat scouting process. Elite is not a game that will hold your hand and show you a quest path to the next mission or mob/loot area. If you want that then I suggest a game like Star Trek Online or SWTOR instead.

 

[ShimEnki]

Cops used to be off the kill list.

But now that im vice admiral i have classified insight to things....ever wonder why some cops show up more than kinda late while some are right there with you at your multi targets throats ?

Yep, you guessed it....well those are the systems i now target for cope-ware.

 

[psyantologist]

Complaining about something does not solve the problem and at this point we have more than enough threads full of complaints. FD is quite aware of the frustrations

You don't even notice how you contradict yourself from one sentence to the next, do you? How do you suppose Frontier was made "aware of the frustration"? Of course complaining helps! How else would the devs know what players think of new features of this project? How can you tell when it's "enough threads"? How many threads of complaints change a dev teams approach?

Knowledge and skill are not the same thing. I think it's great that players who feel so inclined can figure stuff out by themselves - I do so myself; I'm simply not a surface miner for crying out loud - where did i suggest otherwise? But reading up on someone elses findings is not "a skill".

I simply don't think it's a good idea for a multi-role game to force players (and i stick to force) into activities that are not part of their chosen path. That's akin to telling a mage to use a sword and a bow if they want to upgrade their spells. Great idea? I gave the miner example about bulkheads/HRP earlier in this thread. Good idea, badly executed: Fail.

It's supposed to be "blaze your own trail". There was none of that monkey business in Frontier back in 1994 and having it now makes no sense at all, whatsoever, not for a "sim" and not for a space RPG either. It's closer to do-it-all-or-leave-it. For. No. Reason. You like that, apparently, or you are on a crusade to defend a gameplay mechanic that you dislike, which I by now imagine is within your capabilities. I do not like it. Can you accept that?