Yes - apparently they were in code lock - although they'd branched with different depts. working on different stuff according to Wingman's Hangar - also released yesterday.
I don't pretend to fully understand what that means as I'm not a developer.
The Star Citizen Thread
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Yes - apparently they were in code lock - although they'd branched with different depts. working on different stuff according to Wingman's Hangar - also released yesterday.
I don't pretend to fully understand what that means as I'm not a developer.
Robert Maynard
Volunteer Moderator
The eloquent Mr. Brookes has a lot to answer for for introducing that word <shudders> into the lexicon relating to E: D development....
I've been quite negative about Star Citizen, even though I'm a backer who wants it to succeed. Mainly because I think the overblown hype, and almost religious zeal of a lot of the fans does more harm than good.
Nevertheless I'm actually surprised at this delay. They've put it back a long time and seemed when they announced it months back, to have given themselves time to turn their working demo into a public alpha.
Since I can't run SC and ED at the same time, I'm perfectly content with Premium Beta, and have a lot of confidence in Frontier. But as someone who wants this to be a genuine, lasting renaissance for the genre, SC is a concern right now.
I do in fact think that in the end they wi produce a great game. But how long before the faith and hype turns on them? If the only people left by the. Are the hardcore fans, and all the publicity is negative it will be bad for the genre.
What also concerns me is the Kickstarter side of it, especially after the Oculus takeover. At some point people will get much more hesitant to back new projects. Oculus may deliver a headset, but they did not ship as an independent, rather as a Facebook subsidiary. Likewise SC may produce a great game eventually - but they aren't developing the way they said they would. It's not open with backers getting involved in alpha, it's essential. Is three sub-games each of which is released in a Big Bang only when finished.
Nevertheless I'm actually surprised at this delay. They've put it back a long time and seemed when they announced it months back, to have given themselves time to turn their working demo into a public alpha.
Since I can't run SC and ED at the same time, I'm perfectly content with Premium Beta, and have a lot of confidence in Frontier. But as someone who wants this to be a genuine, lasting renaissance for the genre, SC is a concern right now.
I do in fact think that in the end they wi produce a great game. But how long before the faith and hype turns on them? If the only people left by the. Are the hardcore fans, and all the publicity is negative it will be bad for the genre.
What also concerns me is the Kickstarter side of it, especially after the Oculus takeover. At some point people will get much more hesitant to back new projects. Oculus may deliver a headset, but they did not ship as an independent, rather as a Facebook subsidiary. Likewise SC may produce a great game eventually - but they aren't developing the way they said they would. It's not open with backers getting involved in alpha, it's essential. Is three sub-games each of which is released in a Big Bang only when finished.
Honestly I've lost a lot of faith in SC from what I've seen so far. Even the gameplay footage at Pax East was a complete disappointment. Silly repetitive animations to get in the cockpit. Lame puny sound effects. The cockpit moves but your view doesn't so it has a weird detached from ship feeling. The explosions were also puny.
IMHO Elite is mollywopping SC at the moment.
IMHO Elite is mollywopping SC at the moment.
That's quite a list of outstanding bugs! Strange they waited so long before delaying it.
I have that on my wall! It seems quite naive behaviour.
Not very surprised, but still a little disappointed. I was, and by all means, still am looking forward to playing with the arena commander module. I backed this from the beginning, and although I never visit the forums and barely lurk the subreddit I now and then check up on the stuff they post. I waaant the epic cinematic experience Roberts is building as well as the epic immersion Braben is building. These two games compliment each other and after X:Rebirth's disappointing state at launch I understand perfectly well the need to fix bugs and delay releases.
I feel for both CIG and the backers, at the moment it probably feels like a lose lose situation for both. CIG wanted to produce something great for them, but for whatever reason have encountered problems that haven't been easy to resolve. Backers, hyped up by the project have come to expect great things, and especially after the delays of the past really felt they would be getting at least something.
I dare say there are a lot of people who understand the programming challenges that CIG face and accept delays, however there will be many who will feel cheated or 'entitled'. These backers will be very vocal in their anger, and maybe rightly so. Did CIG bite off more than it could chew? I don't know and no one can say one way or the other if they have, but in many industries appearance is everything.
Many people have questioned Frontiers lack of PR, and in hindsight this is the reason for the softly softly approach.
For the good of the space genre, Star Citizen and PC games in general I hope CIG manage to sort out their problems quickly. It would be a shame if those who feel 'short changed' become a hate mob.
Sounds like he's staggering around, banging into things trying to get out.
https://imgur.com/a/FzCWi?gallery
http://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/26rljd/chat_roll_updates_have_some_bug_status/
Looks like they are crunching hard to kill those bugs, hopefully we will have something inside the weekend..C:
http://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/26rljd/chat_roll_updates_have_some_bug_status/
Looks like they are crunching hard to kill those bugs, hopefully we will have something inside the weekend..C:
Remember what happened when we couldn't play the due to the dreaded 'orange sidewinder' syndrome?
All those baby cries on alpha forum?
Multiply that by 100 and you'll know why they are not releasing it. It's not the 'polishing' that's stopping the release.
Yeah, publishing known bugs is a really good idea. If they keep it up, someone can turn it into a bug graph that will make it much easier for the community to draw their conclusions. For example, if we'd spent the last month watching the graph go down and tracing out lines guessing when it would hit zero, we'd all be in a better position to understand the stress they're under and how painful it is when something like this happens.
Having said that...
We were talking about version control a while back. This is the nightmare scenario where git really comes into its own, because you don't have to know what's causing it, only that the cause was committed somewhere between yesterday's build and today's. If they were using git instead of Perforce, the conversation would have been something like:
Developer 1: oh no, where did that come from?
Developer 2: hmm, new since yesterday... I'll bisect it and find out
<developer 2 checks out a build from 24 hours ago and sees the bug go away, then checks out a build from 12 hours ago and sees it come back, then a build from 18 hours ago and sees the bug is still there, until eventually he finds the one change 20 hours and 30 minutes ago that introduced the bug>
Developer 2: here's your change that introduced the bug. Any idea why?
Developer 1: <facepalm> I'm such a dummy. Thanks, I never would have thought of that.
<developer 1 adds a semicolon somewhere and the bug is squashed>
I realise perforce has important strengths for game developers, but for those worried about the pain of switching, it does come with some benefits
Know, Caesar doth not wrong, nor without cause .
Indeed there are those who think Caesar can do no wrong. And it's those people that get me a bit off-center.
So, I saw that delay coming from a mile away. The schedule sounded extremely optimistic, like written by someone with no background in software development. "Spin up the servers" and "warm up the caches", oh my. Today we'll find all bugs and tomorrow we will fix them all. Except that's not how software development works.
Two weeks ago, these problems most likely already existed, though there was still a lot of stuff that needed to be created and attention was all on the "make new stuff" part. That's normal. That's why you have testers. But that's also why you don't announce a date when you are not reasonably certain that you can hold it. It's such a basic mistake, and one that most people in charge of a dev team for the first time make. They're under a lot of pressure to deliver something, so they work towards delivering something. That's not exactly a climate beneficial to excellence.
So the days pass and the software is not coming together really. New problems pop up, or rather, old problems that nobody's experienced before because the software didn't have the functionality to expose them before. And the day before release you have to pull the emergency brake and concede that you won't make the deadline. So far so good. Now the fanboys, relentlessly, tell us that this is the right thing, this is good, another sign that RSI loves us, etc. etc.
Two things:
1) Yes, it's the right thing to do. Better be late than to release crap.
2) No, your project management is still abysmal. You maneuvered yourself into that corner in the first place.
<Moderation Edit: Comment Removed>
You always want to be like Scotty from Star Trek, giving super pessimistic estimates, and then even though you took twice as long you still finished in half the time.
And here's the thing about SC, the same thing as today happened back in december when the DFM was initially slated for release. And in retrospect, the fanboys claim that that was not a "hard date" and hence ok to miss. The CEO says they'll do feature X, but no that was not a promise just because he said they'd do it...
The mental gymnastics going on there, unbelievable!
It's time for some reality check here guys. And I'm mostly talking about the fanboys who infest twitter, youtube and the likes, mindlessly parroting PR statements about SC as gospel while telling everyone how overpriced the elite beta is, and that elite sucks because SC will be so much more detailed and has a greater scope and more depth and whatnot.
Maybe, just maybe, SC was oversold a little? Perhaps although the plans might be grand, there's a good chance they won't come to fruition, ever? Maybe we should just lean back and see what's THERE instead of comparing real, existing games (like ED) to some future fantasy game release that only exists in the minds of fanboys?
But no, excuses are sought, oh ED had a early start because they developed for tens of years (bullcrap if you look at the animations in the background of the early kickstarter videos, and also according to FD's statements), and other weird trains of logic are being sent on their merry way.
Guys! Stop making excuses for other people's mistakes, just because you like what they promise you. Look at what's there, and use common sense.
ED needs to get the netcode sorted. That's the big elephant in the room here at the moment. But really, SC needs to get everything sorted, starting with the basic project management. What on earth made them announce the 29th, a single day before ED Premium Beta, when the thing was not ready? Is it a motivation problem? I doubt that. It's more likely a planning problem, with too many people doing too many things at the same time and no human being able to bring it all together into a coherent product.
Here's a few more predictions from me, and you can later come and tell me I was wrong or right:
1) ED will continue to have network problems through the beta, though their effects may be lessened a bit with the upcoming client connection speed and geoip checks.
2) SC will eventually release the DFM, and it'll have less actual gameplay elements, and less polish, than the first ED Alpha. It'll have nice looking backdrops but play very shallow.
3) The double precision change in SC CryEngine will result in a complete change of ship handling and introduce lots of weird side effects.
4) SC will ultimately reduce the scope of their plans. In the future, you will hear CR say "we decided to not work on feature X for the time being" more and more often.
Now it's not actually such a problem in this forum, but in other places there are people who are defending SC tooth and nail. And if they don't deliver on all the promises, or delay time and time again, what's the harm, right? But you're mistaken, there's a lot of harm, for the repeated disappointments by SC are really damaging future kickstarted games. SC has taken up a lot of the faith people put into projects on Kickstarter, and the more they keep missing deadlines and breaking promises, the harder it will be for games like Limit Theory to attract enough support to be realized.
Now if you'll excuse me, I have some fish to feed
Indeed there are those who think Caesar can do no wrong. And it's those people that get me a bit off-center.
So, I saw that delay coming from a mile away. The schedule sounded extremely optimistic, like written by someone with no background in software development. "Spin up the servers" and "warm up the caches", oh my. Today we'll find all bugs and tomorrow we will fix them all. Except that's not how software development works.
Two weeks ago, these problems most likely already existed, though there was still a lot of stuff that needed to be created and attention was all on the "make new stuff" part. That's normal. That's why you have testers. But that's also why you don't announce a date when you are not reasonably certain that you can hold it. It's such a basic mistake, and one that most people in charge of a dev team for the first time make. They're under a lot of pressure to deliver something, so they work towards delivering something. That's not exactly a climate beneficial to excellence.
So the days pass and the software is not coming together really. New problems pop up, or rather, old problems that nobody's experienced before because the software didn't have the functionality to expose them before. And the day before release you have to pull the emergency brake and concede that you won't make the deadline. So far so good. Now the fanboys, relentlessly, tell us that this is the right thing, this is good, another sign that RSI loves us, etc. etc.
Two things:
1) Yes, it's the right thing to do. Better be late than to release crap.
2) No, your project management is still abysmal. You maneuvered yourself into that corner in the first place.
<Moderation Edit: Comment Removed>
You always want to be like Scotty from Star Trek, giving super pessimistic estimates, and then even though you took twice as long you still finished in half the time.
And here's the thing about SC, the same thing as today happened back in december when the DFM was initially slated for release. And in retrospect, the fanboys claim that that was not a "hard date" and hence ok to miss. The CEO says they'll do feature X, but no that was not a promise just because he said they'd do it...
The mental gymnastics going on there, unbelievable!
It's time for some reality check here guys. And I'm mostly talking about the fanboys who infest twitter, youtube and the likes, mindlessly parroting PR statements about SC as gospel while telling everyone how overpriced the elite beta is, and that elite sucks because SC will be so much more detailed and has a greater scope and more depth and whatnot.
Maybe, just maybe, SC was oversold a little? Perhaps although the plans might be grand, there's a good chance they won't come to fruition, ever? Maybe we should just lean back and see what's THERE instead of comparing real, existing games (like ED) to some future fantasy game release that only exists in the minds of fanboys?
But no, excuses are sought, oh ED had a early start because they developed for tens of years (bullcrap if you look at the animations in the background of the early kickstarter videos, and also according to FD's statements), and other weird trains of logic are being sent on their merry way.
Guys! Stop making excuses for other people's mistakes, just because you like what they promise you. Look at what's there, and use common sense.
ED needs to get the netcode sorted. That's the big elephant in the room here at the moment. But really, SC needs to get everything sorted, starting with the basic project management. What on earth made them announce the 29th, a single day before ED Premium Beta, when the thing was not ready? Is it a motivation problem? I doubt that. It's more likely a planning problem, with too many people doing too many things at the same time and no human being able to bring it all together into a coherent product.
Here's a few more predictions from me, and you can later come and tell me I was wrong or right:
1) ED will continue to have network problems through the beta, though their effects may be lessened a bit with the upcoming client connection speed and geoip checks.
2) SC will eventually release the DFM, and it'll have less actual gameplay elements, and less polish, than the first ED Alpha. It'll have nice looking backdrops but play very shallow.
3) The double precision change in SC CryEngine will result in a complete change of ship handling and introduce lots of weird side effects.
4) SC will ultimately reduce the scope of their plans. In the future, you will hear CR say "we decided to not work on feature X for the time being" more and more often.
Now it's not actually such a problem in this forum, but in other places there are people who are defending SC tooth and nail. And if they don't deliver on all the promises, or delay time and time again, what's the harm, right? But you're mistaken, there's a lot of harm, for the repeated disappointments by SC are really damaging future kickstarted games. SC has taken up a lot of the faith people put into projects on Kickstarter, and the more they keep missing deadlines and breaking promises, the harder it will be for games like Limit Theory to attract enough support to be realized.
Now if you'll excuse me, I have some fish to feed
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True... I spent as much money on ED then I spent on SC, and up until now, CIG didn't really deliver much for it in comparison... I'm totally ok with that, mind you, since I know just how ambitious SC is as a project... maybe even too ambitious. I mean, right now, much of Chris' vision for the game is still only ideas and vague plans, anybody can see that who is willing to take a honest look... problem is, how many people will be able to see it with a certain level of "professional distance", once the realities of development start to pile up?
I just hope Cris didn't bite off more then he can chew... creating that much (rather expensive) hype can backfire VERY quickly these days. I, for one, am neither overly impressed NOR surprised with what CIG has done up until now...
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I agree with a lot of your points, despite the somewhat inflammatory tone. The two above are mutually contradictory however.
Frontier may not have done anything more on the technical side than remove their dependency on CryEngine, but they've had 20 years to get their processes absolutely correct, batttle-hardened across an average of one game per year. Releasing the first alpha bug-free on time was a remarkable achievement no matter what compromises they did behind the scenes, which can only come after many years of practice. CIG are a young company making their newbie mistakes, and offering transparency about those mistakes could help backers understand future kickstarters better, becoming more effective backers of the projects they follow in future.
![[VR] Mad Mike](https://forums-cdn.zaonce.net/data/avatars/m/27/27910.jpg?1553527108){kind=avatar}
Wow so much negativity... For what is sounding more and more like a trivial delay.Know, Caesar doth not wrong, nor without cause .
Indeed there are those who think Caesar can do no wrong. And it's those people that get me a bit off-center.
So, I saw that delay coming from a mile away. The schedule sounded extremely optimistic, like written by someone with no background in software development. "Spin up the servers" and "warm up the caches", oh my. Today we'll find all bugs and tomorrow we will fix them all. Except that's not how software development works.
Two weeks ago, these problems most likely already existed, though there was still a lot of stuff that needed to be created and attention was all on the "make new stuff" part. That's normal. That's why you have testers. But that's also why you don't announce a date when you are not reasonably certain that you can hold it. It's such a basic mistake, and one that most people in charge of a dev team for the first time make. They're under a lot of pressure to deliver something, so they work towards delivering something. That's not exactly a climate beneficial to excellence.
So the days pass and the software is not coming together really. New problems pop up, or rather, old problems that nobody's experienced before because the software didn't have the functionality to expose them before. And the day before release you have to pull the emergency brake and concede that you won't make the deadline. So far so good. Now the fanboys, relentlessly, tell us that this is the right thing, this is good, another sign that RSI loves us, etc. etc.
Two things:
1) Yes, it's the right thing to do. Better be late than to release crap.
2) No, your project management is still abysmal. You maneuvered yourself into that corner in the first place.
<Moderation Edit: Residual Clean up>
You always want to be like Scotty from Star Trek, giving super pessimistic estimates, and then even though you took twice as long you still finished in half the time.
And here's the thing about SC, the same thing as today happened back in december when the DFM was initially slated for release. And in retrospect, the fanboys claim that that was not a "hard date" and hence ok to miss. The CEO says they'll do feature X, but no that was not a promise just because he said they'd do it...
The mental gymnastics going on there, unbelievable!
It's time for some reality check here guys. And I'm mostly talking about the fanboys who infest twitter, youtube and the likes, mindlessly parroting PR statements about SC as gospel while telling everyone how overpriced the elite beta is, and that elite sucks because SC will be so much more detailed and has a greater scope and more depth and whatnot.
Maybe, just maybe, SC was oversold a little? Perhaps although the plans might be grand, there's a good chance they won't come to fruition, ever? Maybe we should just lean back and see what's THERE instead of comparing real, existing games (like ED) to some future fantasy game release that only exists in the minds of fanboys?
But no, excuses are sought, oh ED had a early start because they developed for tens of years (bullcrap if you look at the animations in the background of the early kickstarter videos, and also according to FD's statements), and other weird trains of logic are being sent on their merry way.
Guys! Stop making excuses for other people's mistakes, just because you like what they promise you. Look at what's there, and use common sense.
ED needs to get the netcode sorted. That's the big elephant in the room here at the moment. But really, SC needs to get everything sorted, starting with the basic project management. What on earth made them announce the 29th, a single day before ED Premium Beta, when the thing was not ready? Is it a motivation problem? I doubt that. It's more likely a planning problem, with too many people doing too many things at the same time and no human being able to bring it all together into a coherent product.
Here's a few more predictions from me, and you can later come and tell me I was wrong or right:
1) ED will continue to have network problems through the beta, though their effects may be lessened a bit with the upcoming client connection speed and geoip checks.
2) SC will eventually release the DFM, and it'll have less actual gameplay elements, and less polish, than the first ED Alpha. It'll have nice looking backdrops but play very shallow.
3) The double precision change in SC CryEngine will result in a complete change of ship handling and introduce lots of weird side effects.
4) SC will ultimately reduce the scope of their plans. In the future, you will hear CR say "we decided to not work on feature X for the time being" more and more often.
Now it's not actually such a problem in this forum, but in other places there are people who are defending SC tooth and nail. And if they don't deliver on all the promises, or delay time and time again, what's the harm, right? But you're mistaken, there's a lot of harm, for the repeated disappointments by SC are really damaging future kickstarted games. SC has taken up a lot of the faith people put into projects on Kickstarter, and the more they keep missing deadlines and breaking promises, the harder it will be for games like Limit Theory to attract enough support to be realized.
Now if you'll excuse me, I have some fish to feed
Even if everything you say turns out to be true, it will have nothing at all to do with a few days delay on the DFM.
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