The Star Citizen Thread

[Mr.Nowak]

Anyone really surprised? I was saying that it would be delayed as recently as today. I don't actually expect to ever see the DFM...patterns of run-a-round 'n all...

Meanwhile, I do expect to see a lot of happy faces on the 30th for the Premium Beta (well...more likely a few days afterwards when FD fixes the CTD's)

There is only one chance to get a first impression. If it's a few more days to wait then fine by me Star Citizen backers are waiting since 2013 a few more days is nothing.

Remember this is not like Elite. 450.000 people are waiting.

 

[Toumal]

I agree with a lot of your points, despite the somewhat inflammatory tone.

I offered no offense to anyone, unless you work at RSI and are in charge of the release schedule. But then you'd deserve a little scolding

Frontier may not have done anything more on the technical side than remove their dependency on CryEngine, but they've had 20 years to get their processes absolutely correct, batttle-hardened across an average of one game per year. Releasing the first alpha bug-free on time was a remarkable achievement no matter what compromises they did behind the scenes, which can only come after many years of practice.

You know what? That I can completely agree with. Yes, Frontier is definitely acting like the more professional of the two. They have been in the business for a longer time too, since CR basically had to do a ton of hiring recently and build up everything.

I also believe (though that is just my personal opinion) that David Braben is a much better guy to lead a software company. He's a curious beast, half manager, half software engineer. Kinda like a mythical being that can't possibly exist

But yeah, I got a lot of respect for DB, and I don't envy CR for that massive task at all. But again, once you create lofty expectations, don't be surprised if people hold you to them. I made the same mistake myself before, and it was my own fault things came crashing down on me.

 

[JughedJones]

Wow so much negativity... For what is sounding more and more like a trivial delay.

Even if everything you say turns out to be true, it will have nothing at all to do with a few days delay on the DFM.

I agree, but the thing is: it really doesn't matter in the court of public opinion.

Look at games like Diablo. It had an issue at launch that hampered some people's ability to play for 2-4 days... max, and holy geez... it seemed like the entire universe collapsed.

Everybody knew what they were getting, an always online, DRM game, and when everything went screwy on the first few days, (like everyone with a brain knew would happen,) people were screaming SCAM and CHEATS!!!!!

It doesn't matter that it was actually a pretty damn good game, the damage had been done. Folks don't take very well to having their expectations dashed, even if it is for a short while. Once the word gets out that your heroes are under-delivering, people get downright brutal.

It's hard to bounce back from that eventually.

 

[Adam Lusardi]

<Moderation Edit: Comment Removed>

Think you missed a bit of residual cleanup

<Moderation Edit: Thanks >

 

[JughedJones]

<Moderation Edit: Comment Removed>

Think you missed a bit of residual cleanup

Sorry if that was me!

 

[Alric]

Wow so much negativity... For what is sounding more and more like a trivial delay.

Even if everything you say turns out to be true, it will have nothing at all to do with a few days delay on the DFM.

The delay is not a few days, it's getting on for 6 months.

 

[Slopey]

Personally, I'd have thought a blocker network sync issue was far more critical (and difficult to debug) than a DX crash.

But it is what it is.

I backed to Alpha for SC, and I'm happy to wait. It's a bonus for me, as my entire being is inextricably tied to ED, ever since I unwrapped Elite for the Speccy on Christmas Day back in the late Eighties. I owe the pseudo-auntie who gave it to me a debt of immense gratitude.

So, yeah, whatever.

I can imagine that the problem of people getting frustrated isn't so much with the initial KS funding amounts.

SC's model has been to sell incredibly high priced items as heavily as possible.

There are people on there who have spent many many thousands of real dollars on non-existent digital spaceships. The more money they take, the larger the expectation. If you've ponied up a couple of hundred quid for the ED Alpha/Beta, and it's 3 months late, fair enough. If you've paid $5000 for ship after ship after ship and it's delayed from December, to May and possibly again - you're likely to get a little skittish.

It's a model I don't like, as it is assuredly pay to win, and it is in no way cheap. $120 for a single ship you can't fly for at least a year? That should get you 2 or 3 AAA boxed titles!

It's likely also symptomatic of the US bias in the customer base.

 

[X2Eliah]

Interestingly enough, it's the medium & low pledgers (let's say, sub-$500 for a ludicrous amount of medium) that are the most upset over on that forum. The people who've pledged a thousand or more are so deep into ChrisRobertsWorship / Star Citizen fanboyism, that they can't even really filter the fact that there have been a ton of delays. "everything is fine" in their books ^^

 

[Bains]

I agree with a lot of your points, despite the somewhat inflammatory tone. The two above are mutually contradictory however.

Frontier may not have done anything more on the technical side than remove their dependency on CryEngine, but they've had 20 years to get their processes absolutely correct, batttle-hardened across an average of one game per year. Releasing the first alpha bug-free on time was a remarkable achievement no matter what compromises they did behind the scenes, which can only come after many years of practice. CIG are a young company making their newbie mistakes, and offering transparency about those mistakes could help backers understand future kickstarters better, becoming more effective backers of the projects they follow in future.

I appreciate your point but there are many good practices, like setting realistic expectations, that are more to do with common sense and respect for your customers rather than needing to be a 20 year veteran development shop.

In addition some of these problems seem to be self-inflicted wounds due to bad decisions that are clearly not in the hands of developers.

For instance it must have been apparent even before this latest delay announcement that the selection of the 29th was best dismissed as date driven by marketing one-upmanship rather than product readiness.

As I have stated before it seems self-evident that the decision to not have us all flying around in a one ship DFM long ago, but instead prioritise a full showroom of ships and fish tanks can only have been driven by marketing rather than any kind of conventional software development wisdom. Or at least I hope so because the alternative speaks of incompetence given they may well hit a show-stopper forcing them to rework all these ships.

When you step back and look at the timeline of events going back to last year the picture is clearly one of a company lurching from one crisis to another. Here we are with them engaging in yet more crisis management. With the only difference being the cracks are becoming increasingly apparent to the community and the wider gaming community.

As a group of senior managers, I sincerely hope that rather than dismiss, they treat the appearance of threads demanding money back as a clear sign they need to take a long hard look at how they are carrying on.

 

[Steve O B Have]

Lets not be getting into mockery and labeling of SC fans please. Have a little more mutual respect. (...as a general comment about the thread tone shift - not targeted at anyone in particular.)

More importantly - this is games development. Set backs occur, dates are pushed back and deadlines missed. When you rush the job and shovel the work out the door in an unfinished state you get a massive day one patch and 'early adopter' issues. It's not the end of the world and it's not basis for throwing around accusations of ineptitude.

 

[[VR] Mad Mike]

The delay is not a few days, it's getting on for 6 months.

Yeah and we were meant to be playing release ED in March

 

[Philip Coutts]

Yeah and we were meant to be playing release ED in March

It's a computer game and delays happen. I've yet to see a Kickstarter game that has run even remotely to schedule regardless of the budget. I'm not that invested in SC, I want to see it do well but I'm not that disappointed by delays because it gives me more time to play ED.

 

[Toumal]

Yeah and we were meant to be playing release ED in March

If we hadn't asked them to include a seamless travel mode (FSD) and a ton of other things via the DDF then they probably would've stuck to that date - or at least had much less of a delay. Really, it's apples and oranges.

 

[Alric]

Yeah and we were meant to be playing release ED in March

True true. And no more will Frontier get everything right than RSI or any other developer. But with ED it's the difference between finished and not finished. With SC it's the difference between something and nothing, which is a big one.

 

[Toumal]

With SC it's the difference between something and nothing, which is a big one.

Well they did create a lot of assets, which I would not call "nothing". It is not however a playable game yet. So a more fair comparison is "playable core game + core metagame" on the Elite side, and "principal assets showroom" on the SC side. And in a few days, we'll hopefully get to experience the "playable core game" of SC too, with the metagame still some ways off.

 

[Bains]

More importantly - this is games development. Set backs occur, dates are pushed back and deadlines missed.

True. I would even back up your statement by saying that given the risks and arcane nature of the beast it's also fair to say that almost every single project has its fair share of obstacles to navigate.

However it's also fair to say not all projects are equally well run. And in the case of SC the evidence suggests rather than dismiss the concerns of backers, they would do well to treat them as cause to re-evaluate how, from a senior management team stand point, they are carrying on.

I trust this doesn't read as unreasonable.

 

[AnnDroid]

Star Citizen DFM delay shucks...

Well id been waiting up all night anticipating the Arena hookup on Star Citizen, and darn, theyve only just gone and delayed the launch, gawd knows for how ong.
Anyway i thought that this juicy bit of news will have cheered you all up no end, he he, maybe i cant fly my Hornet any time soon, but im secretly having a little chuckle, hehe

 

[Steve O B Have]

Mod hat off for a mo.

Yeah I'd agree only up to the point that it's a game of numbers - if they had a significant number of backers demanding money back then they'd have something to address. IMO with one of two of the vocal minority throwing their metaphorical toys, I don't think that there is cause for concern nor a need to restructure their approach. Even here there has been one or two people creating threads demanding that something gets fixed or they're taking their money and walking. Stamping ones feet and waving around threats does little to help anyones case and people seem to forget that the internet stays around and how one behaves leaves a quasi permanent track record for all to see.

 

[Andrew Sayers]

Well they did create a lot of assets, which I would not call "nothing".

Continuing my series of holier-than-thou armchair analyses, web developers rejected the argument that "we have a lot of assets we can't show you yet" was worth a hill of beans a while back, opting instead for a continuous integration model. See for example Google's "perpetual beta" products, which for all their flaws are doing something useful for people when a traditional shop would still have them locked behind closed doors.

This model is one of the big reasons web development moves at such breakneck speed, and IMHO is why the likes of Farmville present a much greater threat than they would if their only advantage was their inherent quality as a game. CIG are actually really well-placed to try out the continuous thing - they need only release the dice-and-paper simulation of the economy and see what their players do with it. At a minimum it will give a subset of the community something better to do than sit about on the forums stirring unrest.

 

[Memnoch]

I can completely understand their reticence to release the DFM, and I am glad to see they chose not to regardless of the demands of their backers. Whether they like it or not, and whether it is fair or not, it is going to be compared to the ED launch and the earlier Alpha's. And the last thing they would need on their plate right now is an unfavourable comparison.

Hopefully the delay won't be too long and they release something that keeps their backers happy and engaged.