UAs, Barnacles and other mysteries Thread 8 - The Canonn

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Kerrec Snowmane

K
Allant Doran said:
They make those claims because there are more numbers than the one '10' so it is more likely.

However, given a value we know nothing about, in this case aliens, it is impossible to determine.

You are completely right that people should not say it seems too human. That is currently an assumption based from bias.
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I watched a televised series on Netflix about "the history of mathematics" or something like that. It explains how math (counting) evolved across civilizations and time.

The concept of ZERO was invented in INDIA. Prior to this (if I'm remembering correctly), Babylonia had a base 60 system. They used both hands to count in the following way: With one hand, the THUMB is used to count knuckles on the other 4 fingers. 3 knuckles per finger, across 4 fingers = 12. On the other hand, each finger and thumb were used as multiplier. This resulted in a system that counted up to 60. 12 * 5 = 60. It was a very GOOD way to count because 60 can be divided in many ways: By 5, 10, 15, 20 and 30. It made a lot of complex math at the time easy. That system is also believed to explain why our time system is based on 60 (60 seconds in a minute, 60 minutes in an hour). The Babylonian method of counting died out because they didn't have the concept of zero or negative (how much do you owe me?), ortherwise today we would probably have 59 unique numbers + zero.

Egyptians had a counting system based on symbols. Mayans had their own system. Asian civilizations used sticks and are believed to have "conceptualized" the concept of base 10. They just didn't have "zero" in their vocabulary.

Anyway, my point being: Over the evolution of mankind, we have created SEVERAL different ways to count and do math. We have EVOLVED our mathematics and settled on a convention with 9 unique numbers and the concept of zero, resulting in a system called BASE 10.

If humans went through many different systems of counting and settled on this one, why does anyone think an alien civilization would happen on the same convention? Especially if they didn't have 10 digits like we do?
 
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brianpansky

B
Ozric said:
How do you know that base 10 is a human convention? How do you know that there aren't other civilisations in other parts of the universe that also use it and have been doing so for far longer than us? I find people saying things are too human and not alien enough a very bizarre argument as no one knows what they would use. They just ascertain that it has to be different from what we use. Why?
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Well, many things are possible, but it's important to notice whether or not they are probable. I think it's improbable in real life that the first intelligent aliens we encounter would use base 10. Pick a random base out of a hat, what are the odds it's base ten? Fairly low.

But this is a game, many things in it are improbable or unrealistic in various ways!

You ask "how do you know that base 10 is a human convention?" because it is a human convention. Or, more accurately, it is the convention of some humans, but not all. There are examples of human cultures using other bases instead. This is a real topic you can look into:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decimal#History

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decimal#Other_bases
 

aelemental

aelemental
So excited to the new UPs!! refreshing this page madly waiting for a new picture ^_^

I also wanted to share a couple of images to help visualize the sonogram on a sphere.
I really don't think there is any other "location" to find other than the barnacles, if it does point to the surface, IMHO, its to where something else needs to be done ..

but perhaps this might help visualization of some theories related to surface location, and i havent seen any posted of the sort yet ..

http://imgur.com/a/ZAvz3


//so curious almost refreshes before posting this
 

Matt

M
Base 10 is supposedly based on the fact we have 10 fingers making it easy to do the sums. Insects have 6 legs (at least earth ones do), so would thargoids be base-6?

Interestingly though, on the message we only see two symbols - & |. If it was a higher base than base 2, we'd need other symbols to denote the other digits. It could just be coincidence that we don't see those other digits in this message though ... I find that a bit of a stretch. For me, the fact that little endian base-2 interpretation gives us Pi AND that it matches the Voyager probe exactly is just too much of a coincidence to ignore. It could totally be in another base, but so far the odds are against it until we see new digits (e.g. digits for 2, 3, 4, 5 etc to replace - & |)
 

Ozric

Volunteer Moderator
Ozric
brianpansky said:
Well, many things are possible, but it's important to notice whether or not they are probable. I think it's improbable in real life that the first intelligent aliens we encounter would use base 10. Pick a random base out of a hat, what are the odds it's base ten? Fairly low.

But this is a game, many things in it are improbable or unrealistic in various ways!

You ask "how do you know that base 10 is a human convention?" because it is a human convention. Or, more accurately, it is the convention of some humans, but not all. There are examples of human cultures using other bases instead. This is a real topic you can look into:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decimal#History

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decimal#Other_bases
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But mathematics is a human concept. Zoltan's mate Hocck'nsl'pz'a has a similar principle but they have decided to call it literacy.

Nit picking maybe, but the point remains vaid. To say that another species couldn't possibly use something which we have created, is rather egotistical. There's nothing to say that either they may have followed a similar evolutionary path (in the culture/philosophy sense), or more probable, they are in fact the influence of our own path.
 

Colonel Kenney

Colonel Kenney
Anyone consider "They are in the wild" means they are landed on the surface?

UP's point to planets - maybe those are the final destinations?
UA's point to stars - maybe they are meant to travel between stars.
 

Soban

Soban
LordZoltan said:
What if the image didn't represent a circle, but a sphere/hemisphere, with the viewpoint slightly from above the plane made by the equator?

Then the lines would be slightly inconsistent between top and bottom, as one half would be slightly squished relatove to the other.

Also, if you can explain why it is the vertical thickness of the outer glow on the bottom and top portions of the circle is consistent only when displayed logarithmically, i.e. by saying why it's right that it should be inconsistent as it is in linear view, then I might accept the idea of the 'correct' view being that of the egg.
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Hi LZ, if i understood correctly Kerrec's point, his post is not about Log vs Linear.
It's about the symbols surrounding "teh circlegg" being binary or not, and using explanation of what the log scale is to illustrate :
Log scale used here is based on base10 numeric system, therefore there's no apparent reason for the symbols surrouding "teh circlegg" to use a base2 numeric system, so it must be something else than binary.
 

ilo

ilo
Ozric said:
But mathematics is a human concept. Zoltan's mate Hocck'nsl'pz'a has a similar principle but they have decided to call it literacy.

Nit picking maybe, but the point remains vaid. To say that another species couldn't possibly use something which we have created, is rather egotistical. There's nothing to say that either they may have followed a similar evolutionary path (in the culture/philosophy sense), or more probable, they are in fact the influence of our own path.
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or they might have just came up with a base 10 for any reason, including just luck.
 

Agony_Aunt

Agony_Aunt
Guys, someone linked me a recording of what i think is the recording of the UP.

https://soundcloud.com/user-536207472/voice

If you just listen, you can hear at the start something like "We are, we are, we are"

Is it just imagination. Has anyone actualy tried listening to the sound at different speeds, or like you know, hidden messages in rock LPs that when played backwards told people to worship the devil... :p

Has anyone tried listening to a reversed recording? Has anyone tried reversing the recording and then sampling it?
 

ilo

ilo
Colonel Kenney said:
Anyone consider "They are in the wild" means they are landed on the surface?

UP's point to planets - maybe those are the final destinations?
UA's point to stars - maybe they are meant to travel between stars.
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definitely, if the words were "in the wild" could be anywhere, as ambiguous as expected. I don't buy yet the "free floater" UP (like UAs) unless we have one or we have more accurate words.

PS: when I read "in the wild" for the first time I thought they are alive and are not crafted by someone/something.
 
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Lordxenu

Lordxenu
Colonel Kenney said:
Anyone consider "They are in the wild" means they are landed on the surface?

UP's point to planets - maybe those are the final destinations?
UA's point to stars - maybe they are meant to travel between stars.
Click to expand...

Mb did mention that the ua up mystery is space based and planetary stuff is next (cant find the original post) im not saying that means mb says no planets its just the hint suggested theres more to discover in space.
 

SubsonicFever50

SubsonicFever50
The latest Frontier update shows a picture of the image and mentions strapping on protective goggles.

Has anyone tried looking at the image with 3D glasses?
 

Ozric

Volunteer Moderator
Ozric
Agony_Aunt said:
Guys, someone linked me a recording of what i think is the recording of the UP.

https://soundcloud.com/user-536207472/voice

If you just listen, you can hear at the start something like "We are, we are, we are"

Is it just imagination. Has anyone actualy tried listening to the sound at different speeds, or like you know, hidden messages in rock LPs that when played backwards told people to worship the devil... :p

Has anyone tried listening to a reversed recording? Has anyone tried reversing the recording and then sampling it?
Click to expand...

With the best will in the world I now take anything Gypsy says with not a pinch, but a bag of salt.

Also those cases were proven in court to be untrue :p
 
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brianpansky

B
Ozric said:
But mathematics is a human concept. Zoltan's mate Hocck'nsl'pz'a has a similar principle but they have decided to call it literacy.

Nit picking maybe, but the point remains vaid. To say that another species couldn't possibly use something which we have created, is rather egotistical. There's nothing to say that either they may have followed a similar evolutionary path (in the culture/philosophy sense), or more probable, they are in fact the influence of our own path.
Click to expand...

Your point is what I already said: it's possible.

Mathematics is a human concept, I guess, sure, but that doesn't seem relevant. If we ever find alien communication about quantities, and the relationships between quantities, humans will call it mathematics/math because that's just what the word mathematics means.
 

Matt

M
Regarding numerical bases, I have put together a small google sheet to view what the numbers would be in other bases (e.g. base 6 or whatever) up to 20, assuming that we simply have not seen any other digits apart from 0 and 1 yet this is what we could expect to see and so we can finally put this one to bed and all agree that it is clearly base-2 following the occam's razor principle (i.e. we accept the simplest explanation for the data)

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/11QeB67-40-4ytwAy32fy9I6A4kLBD_icEYW2xcixzVo/edit?usp=sharing

(hope I got the maths right!)


--edit
Minor maths screwup = now fixed :)
 
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Ozric

Volunteer Moderator
Ozric
brianpansky said:
Your point is what I already said: it's possible.

Mathematics is a human concept, I guess, sure, but that doesn't seem relevant. If we ever find alien communication about quantities, and the relationships between quantities, humans will call it mathematics/math because that's just what the word mathematics means.
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Yes indeed, but to write off one way of them determining the relationships between differing quantities because they're a human convention, is wrong.
 
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