2.2's Instant Ship and Module Transport - Yay or Nay?

[dreampage]

I think instant ship transfers are the good way to go. There wouldn't be any point making it delayed as long as it would take manually, because seriously, then you can go and take the ship yourself. If you have the credit, however, it's good to have the option to transfer ships and move them around without further annoyance. Also, it affects gameplay too. If you transfer a ship then you possibly need it for something. Now, if you have to wait for it to arrive, you wouldn't play until it does. So it's pointless to initiate a transfer only to watch a counter, or to log off until it arrives. That's not in the interest to anyone. This is a gameplay mechanic that should not be thought about much more. You click on the ship and if you have the money then it's there where you are, case closed. I would like this to happen. I'd probably buy more ships with poor jump ranges if this was an option. Waiting is not gameplay in my opinion.

 

[Ci7ru5]

For all people talking about realism and whatnot, just accept that Frontier is pretty arbitrary about what should be realistic and what should be game like. I mean, there are mining stations and refineries everywhere but we gotta travel the galaxy shooting rocks ourselves to get mats for engineers, we have state of the art computer systems and GalNet in our ships but we can only pin one blueprint per engineer, there is no travel log, and if you refuse to use eddb.io then you gotta play station roulette to find the things you want to buy. None of it makes any sense (don't even get me started on the harmless black holes).

That said, if it were up to me I would revamp internal compartments so each ship gets x amount of space total while modules take z amount of space. That way you can buy a ship transfer rack that will take up most of the internal space of a large ship like a Conda/Type-9 and stick one FDL sized ship into it or multiple smaller ships and haul them yourself. Then for modules you can get a module transfer rack that's not as big and heavy which makes things convenient for in bubble transfers where you can just buy another ship hull at your destination (or near it) to stick them in, but for people going all the way out to somewhere like Jacques and want an alternate ship to fly around in once they get there then they gotta haul the whole thing.

 

[redVENGEANCE]

We might as well have just 1 FSD now for our main ship that does the travelling. Everything else just transfers instantly.

 

[Wyaston Hypatia]

Just gone through the overnight posts. I think these below sum-up my feelings on the matter.
If it can't be done well with time delays I don't want it in the game.
I can just ignore it (if instantaneous) and that's what I'll do.
It will however feel like another capitulation to the dumbing down of a great game.

You know, the more I think about it, the more I think I don't want ship transfer at all.

I mean for me having to transfer a ship is at most a rare issue, but the inconvenience of a low jump range is so tied into ship balance that I'm really not sure allowing players to sidestep that is such a good thing.

Indeed, because if all you are using it for is to conveniently relocate a fleet to a new home system, then having the time be realistically in line with how long it would take a player to fly the ship from A to B (or even slower) would not be an issue. It's only an issue for those who want to "game" the mechanic. Making costs prohibitive only rewards grinders and creates a pointless feature for near everyone else. At a reasonable cost, but a realistic time frame, relocating a fleet of ten or more ships would still be worthwhile if going to a new home base is what you are after. All this will do is throw another wrench between players who grind credits and materials and those who play in any other way. This may even turn open into the very thing people have been complaining about (which really it isn't yet).

I hate the idea of an instant transfer and think it is very likely to at the least change the way any (most) people play the game, and will probably unbalance the gameplay.

I really don't see what the objection is to a timed transfer. For most people in the bubble this would be relatively short - 30 min, maybe a little more - and it's not like they can't be doing something else in this time.

Personally I'd require that the ship has sufficient FSD range to make the journey too because we don't have ships that carry other ships apart from fighters - so someone is flying your ship. And I'd have the amount you pay linked to the reputation of the pilot you hire to transfer the ship, with cheap options (i.e. more shady/desperate characters) carrying a risk of your ship being stolen (which could make for some interesting bounty hunting options). But this is just me, I can live without these bit, but instant transfer just doesn't sit right with me. It's a step too far away from realism IMHO.

I have tried to write this post so many times but each time my blood boils and I get mad thinking about how much Frontier continuously caters to a specific player group which I personally believe won't stick with the game longer than another year. I can't write it without saying nasty things. So i'll drop all that and stick to the facts.

Instant transfer should never have been presented as an idea. Period
1. Goes against the general game architecture of having to build yourself up from nothing.
2. Yes it is completely immersion breaking as are other things in the game which we accepted as game play balance (do you really want a permadeath?)
-In no way does instant transfer make sense. The rebuilt argument is not correct. If you can't even buy that ship there normally how do you just magically construct one out of thin air to mirror one from across the galaxy.
-Engineer upgrades... how does Joe Blow ship builder in Sol accurately copy the modification that a crazy scientist engineer did with rare materials.... (This ties in with the death screen too.

But forget immersion the problem is gameplay
1. Obsidian Ant has a good video on it but first effect is dumbing down the scale of the galaxy let alone the bubble. As a DWE explorer I laugh my head off at you people that are asking for warp gates for inside the bubble too. Like 100 Lys is even far. I've traveled from alliance space to imperial in an eagle with no money and a C class FSD, get over it. It's space. It's big. It's empty.

2. Instant transfer only benefits aforementioned player group. Everyone else can easily get screwed over. As everything in Elite it runs off of news reports of the fastest way to make money, rank, whatever. Someone says hey come here do this thing and profit. Everyone goes there. Griefers hear about head that way. but instead of having to take their combat outfit the distance now they can effectively get there faster than others by taking a hauler taxi and performing the black magic that is instant transfer. Then the players that would normally benefit say they are traders or whatever bringing in their slower poorly armed ships are now met with a blockade of causal corvettes. <- This is the gameplay balance we are talking about.

I firmly believe the people voting for instant transfer are the only people that would benefit where as the rest of the elite player base will be screwed by it. As such the poll is already showing this at the time of me writing this that there is a 60/40% for delay vs. instant.

Final thoughts: I want ship transfer but with a time delay. It needs to have a REAL cost whether it be time and money or loss of engineer upgrades and money. I prefer time and money. Just money is of no consequence in Elite we've got many multi-billionaires in the game.

If you can't afix a true cost to transfer I don't want transfer at all. Of all the things you decided to sacrifice immersion and game play this is what you picked Fdev?

The problem, one of them anyway, with this line of reasoning is that it won't be long before other aspects of the game are simplified for us, too. How long before we just have a button press to land our ships on planetary surfaces a la' NMS, for instance? This design decision is being floated to pander to the casuals, and it's the opposite of what I hold dear about ED in the first place.

If it ties into multi-crew, and you can crew then disembark and insta-teleport any ship to where you're at, you'll have a mechanism to move gank fleets around at will. It'll also massively increase profits per hour on the Sothis and other runs, FSD size becomes irrelevant in anything but the AspX you use to travel then summon, and we can teleport ships but not cargo and still can't get market data from one system over (which you could write on a note and teleport).

It's inconsistent, trivialises the scale of the bubble (or multiple bubbles), unbalances the game where loadouts are concerned, changes Powerplay (as you can now summon gunboats to respond instantly) and breaks FD's long held, VERY insistent stance on what ED should be.

It's really poor from a game design perspective.

That's what I thought they'd do. Have set distances, you can't take module cargo, a price, and a reasonable timer. You want your Python sent to the other side of the Bubble? Well there's a price to pay for that simplistic function, your second/third ship is effectively taken out of play for some time. You can do what you want in the meantime knowing as a bonus, that your other ship is being moved to a brand new location - slowly, as it would.

The benefits? Well, you don't have to do the trek and maybe, that FDL would take a damn long time to do, so while you work on other ventures, and make a faster amble across the bubble, your FDL will be on its way too as cargo on a ship with a better jump range than it has.

Issue we have now is that ship movement isn't a small benefit to allow players to shift their goalposts a little with a little less strain, it's a game mechanic changer, totally and utterly. And I agree, it weakers the role system, it damages the requirements of Engineers on a fleet, and more over it simplfies game interactivity. It's essentially, a legitimised cheat code. From what I see here, people advocating it are really advocating it in the same right as using a cheat code - they know it has no in-game rationale, that the use has little to no draw backs, only massive time and strategic benefits - and they want those benefits to the game. That to me is a cheat code ideology - all benefits, no drawbacks. And no, I don't see money as a drawback here, not with many players with hardcore cash reserves, and again, even if we did agree that the cost was the drawback, it still doesn't take away from the fact it breaks every rule of the universe - it has no rationale to it. How ever you pitch it, beyond player-entitlement, it has no reason.

I know we're making assumptions here on how it will work on little data, but this really needs to be advocated now and give time for any changes between here and beta, as what they've done is highly self-destructive from the info we have.

Quite frankly, I'm changing my vote. If this is how it's implemented, I'd rather not have this mechanic at all. I've done okay without it thanks. Keep it all Dangerous instead.

 

[Kayweg]

I admit that i haven't read through the entire thread, or followed gamescom.
However, this "summon ship" feature does at first glance appear to be a pretty drastic "solution", even though we'll have to wait for the actual implementation.
As someone who never has more than 2 ships at any given time, it will not really effect me.
But some of the concerns and scenarios posted here do seem to have some merit, and prior experience let's me doubt that FD always thinks through what they're implementing.
The ED game world is huge, it may even be too big for it's own good, so the "shrink" argument doesn't concern me, we'll be fine.

What surprises me is this, the emphasis always seems to have been on "flying your ship", and FD have tried to add more reasons and ways to "fly your ship".
Therefor this "summon ship" feature, if i understood it correctly so far, seems to be a change of "doctrine" (yes, i know, terrible word).
I think, perhaps an eve-like solution would actually have been more in line with the "gist of the game".
Remove all modules, weapons and cargo hold contents from the ships you want to move. Disassemble the vessels, which puts them into a transportable state, and load them onto a hauler or freighter.
Then fly them to where you want them.
That way the "fly your ship" philosophy would have been kept intact, a logistics element would have been added, and when moving your ships you'd still be subject to the hazards of the game world (interdictions, pirates etc).
At the same time it would satisfy the calls (and need) for this QoL improvement, namely the ability to move your ships.
Of course, all of what i described would require player storage at stations, something FD appear to be determent not to let happen.

Well, curious where this goes when it's finally put into the game.

 

[askavir]

This kind of stuff is what happens when Braben goes out to give an interview about the science in the skyforge and leaves Sammarco in charge. Ship teleportation, 3D printing combat spaceships, peek-a-boo planetary POIs, healing lasers, engineer spin&win, fragile but ship disabling skimmers, etc....

-Everyone who had been scrambling to mod the FSDs of their ships since 2.1 has just been given the middle finger only 2 months later after 2.1 released (glad I didn't spent much time with engineers)
-Different ship jump ranges and everything involving travel planning have been thrown in the trash. Move around in your ta(sp)xi and cast "summon ship" when you need it.
-Ships, especially power-hungry ships have just been given a bonus: no more need for decent FSDs = more power available.
-The outfitting diversity of the bubble has been negated. Inner, core, richer systems had better outfitting and shipyards than outer, frontier poorer systems. But now you can be out in the butt-end of the bubble and simply cast "summon 6A fuel scoop", "summon class 3 gimballed beam laser", or "summon class 4 refinery". Basically everything will be available everywhere, through summon spells. Go to a LYR system, buy everything at a discount, and cast summon from everywhere.

I hope at least they don't make the cost for the summon spells trivial, or this will get even more ridiculous very fast.

 

[NeilF]

Really appreciate the transfer - but instantaneously is right back into the "magic insta-repair/refuel of the SRV" area.

it's surely no different to rebuy? That creates a ship at any station instantly.

However, my original proposal for this mechanic (see sig) did propose a realistic delay in ship delivery. In fact it proposed you'd even be able to sit outside at the ETA and see your ship arrive.

I have mixed feelings about instant delivery. I suspect it's been done as it's the easiest mechanic. And instead of a time penalty we'll get a large CR one instead. We'll need to know what that expense is to comment on it.

Personally I think a delay would give a better dynamic to delivery.

 

[bitstorm]

Aye having slept on it, I think my feelings are that I'd rather ship transfer just not be in the game.

I know it's really easy to look at the feature and immeditaely say "oh yeah of course I want that"..

But whichever way it's implemented it seems to undermines ship jump range as a balancing factor.

And let's be honest, has ship transfer really ever been that much of an issue for anyone that it's worth fundamentally breaking balance in this way?

Sure, nice feature, but in the end the cost is too high.

 

[Ozram]

Aye having slept on it, I think my feelings are that I'd rather ship transfer just not be in the game.

I know it's really easy to look at the feature and immeditaely say "oh yeah of course I want that"..

But whichever way it's implemented it seems to undermines ship jump range as a balancing factor.

And let's be honest, has ship transfer really ever been that much of an issue for anyone that it's worth upsetting the balance in this way?

I honestly don't think so.

Certainly of all the ways to do it, the suggested path is among the worst.

 

[wulfson]

Aye having slept on it, I think my feelings are that I'd rather ship transfer just not be in the game.

I know it's really easy to look at the feature and immeditaely say "oh yeah of course I want that"..

But whichever way it's implemented it seems to undermines ship jump range as a balancing factor.

And let's be honest, has ship transfer really ever been that much of an issue for anyone that it's worth fundamentally breaking balance in this way?

Sure, nice feature, but in the end the cost is too high.

I also think that ship transfer undermines the core mechanics and balance of the game for questionable benefits. Anyway who will transfer those ships? If the ships transfer by themselves automatically then there is really no reason not to have automatic exploration vessels, full autopilots for everything and the game can play by itself. For me this undermines the fundamentals of Elite and I probably would abandon it.

 

[Patrick_68000]

Transfer is great. To the transfer time, a small fraction of the manual time will be reasonable (40%?). instantaneous transfer makes a little cartoon

 

[[VR] Marrs]

Not really any difference to sending your ship ahead and instant transport is there? The same amount of time passes either way? You send your ship's, then you make the trip. Oor you make the trip and port your ships over.

One breaks immersion, the other does not.

 

[Gotterdammung]

o7 CMDRs

I voted For transfer as long as manually. Because, when You look at it from normal point of view, that time is very short. I`m suprized that most of the people that want instant teleport claim that they don't have time to play and they do not want to wait. But if the ship transfer timer will run also when the game is turned off i really dont' see any problems. You will simply "tap" transfer ship at the end of Your play session, and next time You will turn the game on (since You dont't have too much time for gaming) You will have everything waiting for You, so in Your actual game time You lost absolutely nothing. 22 hours should be enough for transfer to Jaques Station.

Mine opinion

 

[[VR] Marrs]

We might as well have just 1 FSD now for our main ship that does the travelling. Everything else just transfers instantly.

Yes, instant transfer is practically no diferent to having 1 ship that can magically transform into any other ship. So why not just have all ships have unlimited max module slot? Makes as much sense.

 

[Emmdee]

Ship transfer: Hell yes!
Instant: No thanks; but better than nothing

My suggestion/preference: do it via the new NPC crew lounge as an order to collect the ship. (They would travel to it by passenger liner).
Time taken could be optionally compressed, perhaps proportionally to the rank of the NPC crew eg. Harmless = real time/cheapest; Elite = eg 20% of real time & most expensive

Supplementary: Would also be cool to have missions to transfer ships (so also a chance to fly ships you can't afford or with challeging load outs) and/or to travel as a passenger to collect the ship yourself (so you can log out and have arrived in the next session). Obviously the passage could be a costly option.

 

[Parmo]

I think David Braben had better rename Frontier Developments to Instant Developments.

 

[NeilF]

Aye having slept on it, I think my feelings are that I'd rather ship transfer just not be in the game.

I know it's really easy to look at the feature and immeditaely say "oh yeah of course I want that"..

But whichever way it's implemented it seems to undermines ship jump range as a balancing factor.

And let's be honest, has ship transfer really ever been that much of an issue for anyone that it's worth fundamentally breaking balance in this way?

Sure, nice feature, but in the end the cost is too high.

All I can say to that is for me at least it has reduced my ability to play the game and enjoy it at times.

Two examples...

1 - working at a cg and wanting to participate in another local one but being put off by the jumps back to where my fighter is, followed by even more jumps bringing it back.

2 - encountering some trolls and wanting my combat ship instead of my cargo ship. To go and get it again would take too long.


That said I'd still like a delay as a nod to realism.

 

[Patrick_68000]

It would be nice to have to plan a bit ahead and get to have a ship ordered some where

My thoughts exactly

 

[znôrt]

If we can 3d print fighter drones then surely stations can 3d print ships. (i.e. directly copy the layout of your owned ship)

so one nonsense justifies another. cool

wait, not cool. ¬¬

 

[Crimson Kaim]

I think it has already pointed out but as they said it is work in progress so I expect there will be some delay upon release. I am not worried at this point.