2.2's Instant Ship and Module Transport - Yay or Nay?

[saremun]

Yeah, slippery slope argument is a logical fallacy. Try again!

To add to this, how many people you think have stopped or severely limited their playtime out of the bad time sink level found within this game?

That was not an argument that was a fact, once we get the insta ship transfer in game me and many others will ask for the insta jump, its our right as customers and players of this game just like it is your right to ask for the insta magical ship transfer...

 

[Wolfechu]

It will be tied to ship value. "A nominal fee" indeed.

Absolutely. I mean, the insurance you pay for a new ship is 'nominal', but that's going to mean one thing to a hauler pilot and another to a guy with an anaconda.

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

Watch all the way to the end, listen to Adam say 'nominal'.

But, until it's in game we are simply guessing.

Well, they said conflicting things about cost - Adams seems to be on line for "costs nothing" although saying in a joking style, while Sandro explaining it will be percentage x of ship value times distance.

 

[Frambitam]

The only ones in that list that matter are persistent ones which would be the CG's, and they're put in by the devs as and when required. "Complex" missions are a case of IF>THEN, ditto for chained and branching (presuming they don't bug spectacularly), all of those are merely a matter of incrementing the mission lookup server-side that's attached to the pilot if they "pass" the conditions

I really do not see why timed ship transfer is more complex than this. A seemingly functional system has already been suggested by other posters and myself. What's wrong with this?

SERVER SIDE STUFF -
Instant transfer of ship asset to where you want it.
Timestamp associated with the asset is stored representing when it will be "delivered".
When client opens the shipyard UI, check if servertime>timestamp and return result
When client selects to use the asset, check if servertime>timestamp and return result

CLIENT SIDE STUFF -
Calculation of timestamp.
When shipyard UI is opened, ask server if servertime>timestamp.
If true, allow use of asset, if false display a countdown to "ship arrival".
When asset is selected for use, ask server if servertime>timestamp.
If true, allow use of asset, if false keep asset locked.

I mean, am I missing something here? Can you explain why this isn't feasible?

 

[X-Terminator]

What I can see as a Lore for this Instant Ship is this: -
You can Sell Any Ship in the Galaxy.
Then you Buy one at a Station near you and can go there to collect it.
It just happens to be that they had all your Upgrades and MODs built for you in the process.
BUT please don't make it an Instant Transfer if you are not at a Station which sells that Ship.

 

[xDreadnoughtx]

Instant transfer?

Rank idiocy.

Prime Kobe beef foolishness.

You spend years massaging this fine game into a tasty space meal, then liquidise and freeze dry it before we can savour the flavour.

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

That was not an argument that was a fact, once we get the insta ship transfer in game me and many others will ask for the insta jump, its our right as customers and players of this game just like it is your right to ask for the insta magical ship transfer...

Difference is Sandro and FD really (and yes, David is aware most certainly) decided it themselves. You can ask for insta jump, but frankly that's neither doable, nor reasonable. Ship transfer is there so you wouldn't to do flying twice, so you could discover combat zone, jump to nearest station and try your luck in it. You still have to fly there. You just save one trip which you already did.

 

[Roybe]

It is marketed as game, in fact massive multiplayer online game. None of Elite games have been "space sims".

And this is the issue being addressed.

This move the program up the sim---game slider towards the game level.

I like the idea of the ship exchange...because I play less because I can't be bothered to fly and get Ship A because I was 16 jumps away from home and only have 45 minutes to play. I will, and have, just played something else.

I'm not upset that I didn't play...this game takes a lot of time to play.

I just won't be playing it as much. <shrug>

This will also have a future knock on my purchases of content later on...since the less I play a game, the more likely I will be to spend money elsewhere.

In short, people like me, will have more reason to play as the time sink has been limited...without detriment to the overall game....or others...and helps increase the likelihood that people in the same position as myself will spend more time and money with the game.

 

[lysan]

Sorry, TLDR but just nope anyway.

Here are just two things that instant ship transportation make completely pointless:

- Shipyards and Outfitting: we no longer need any shipyards or outfitting except the good ones. Location is no longer a factor. Any shipyard that doesn't stock everything or offer a discount is now completely irrelevant.
- FSD jump range: in fact just scrap FSDs altogether on any ship apart from the entry level Hauler, the Asp, DBX, and Anaconda. No one needs to ever travel anywhere in any other ship except these.

It's dumb, it'll always be dumb, and there's no justification for it other than dumbing down the game.

You Sir. won the Internet prize of brilliant comments!

I salute you..

 

[CMDR-AD]

So one thing i see argued in this thread is the concept of "well that person that has the FDL will be able to instantly get their FDL out at jaques, it will create a whole new meta!!" Realize this is not an argument against INSTANT ship transfer, this is an argument against ship transfer in general. Realize that if ship transfer took as long as it takes to reasonably jump, if i got out to Jaques in my super anaconda, then called an FDL out, lets say it takes 20 hours. I log off for the night, when i log back in the next day i have my FDL.

The only argument that stands up is that it just doesn't make sense. From a simulation perspective, i agree, it make very little sense.

My argument against the instant transfers (as I have heard them described) is that there was no indication that the ship being moved will be checked to see if it could actually complete the route. Consider an FDL to Jacques...

Is the FDL fitted with a fuel scoop? If yes, it's taking a decent dent to a full combat build for a usable scoop. But without any check on that capability... no fuel scoop is required to reach Jacques, or even Beagle Point if Jacques had succeeded in arriving there?

Is the FDL outfitting capable of making every jump range required for the trip? Meaning, can I leave the stock, low performance E rated FSD in the ship (good for like 6LY jumps) and have it still make a trip that requires 10+LY jumps?

Can such an FDL even make a trip from SOL to Lave?

Even forgetting the "instant" movement element... That is my real concern. That ships which a player could not actually fly on the desired trip from inside the cockpit, would be able to somehow complete the impossible journey.

If, at a bare minimum, the ship's jump range and fuel logistics for the route are considered, then at least the play mechanics remain valid for basic needs of ship outfitting, balancing FSD range and ship weight, and fuel concerns.

For builds that can't complete a route due to too low FSD range, or no fueling options... The move request is declined. I can't imagine how that would cause server loading. The ship's outfitting is known, just plot a route with those specs on the client computer star map and see if a valid arrival can result.

 

[Boomer Kay]

Difference is Sandro and FD really (and yes, David is aware most certainly) decided it themselves. You can ask for insta jump, but frankly that's neither doable, nor reasonable. Ship transfer is there so you wouldn't to do flying twice, so you could discover combat zone, jump to nearest station and try your luck in it. You still have to fly there. You just save one trip which you already did.

A completely trivial trip, which really only takes some time spent doing not much.

 

[Roybe]

That was not an argument that was a fact, once we get the insta ship transfer in game me and many others will ask for the insta jump, its our right as customers and players of this game just like it is your right to ask for the insta magical ship transfer...

Do as you like. You might actually convince them to do it! I never argued for or against the instaship transfer. I just like the idea now that it has been implemented...it will let me play the game more.

 

[saremun]

Difference is Sandro and FD really (and yes, David is aware most certainly) decided it themselves. You can ask for insta jump, but frankly that's neither doable, nor reasonable. Ship transfer is there so you wouldn't to do flying twice, so you could discover combat zone, jump to nearest station and try your luck in it. You still have to fly there. You just save one trip which you already did.

So they respect your time and not mine?, my time is equally important as yours so flying 400k lS while exploring systems is time consuming.

 

[Sans Daring]

I really do not see why timed ship transfer is more complex than this. A seemingly functional system has already been suggested by other posters and myself. What's wrong with this?

SERVER SIDE STUFF -
Instant transfer of ship asset to where you want it.
Timestamp associated with the asset is stored representing when it will be "delivered".
When client opens the shipyard UI, check if servertime>timestamp and return result
When client selects to use the asset, check if servertime>timestamp and return result

CLIENT SIDE STUFF -
Calculation of timestamp.
When shipyard UI is opened, ask server if servertime>timestamp.
If true, allow use of asset, if false display a countdown to "ship arrival".
When asset is selected for use, ask server if servertime>timestamp.
If true, allow use of asset, if false keep asset locked.

I mean, am I missing something here? Can you explain why this isn't feasible?

I think from watching the stream, they think it's a popular idea allowing instant role-switching that benefits the player. So I agree, I think it can be implemented, and I suspect, either before or after beta, some delay will be implemented, because the feedback on this is certainly more engaged that the Engineers. And that's on what, day two or three? They have to see that they can't implement teleportation of such massive assets in a game that has been systematically constructed to convey realism wherever possible. Regardless of the practical exploit and reductive elements this brings to fleets, ideologically, it's utterly against what Elite tries to convey.

 

[MadDogMurdock]

Actually this is a good point.

You think this a decision influenced more with dealing with the 2.3 issue of coordinating people and not causing a major headache, though on (d) the cost the player would incur feels a bit unfair.

Though I'm thinking with multicrew some compromise to realism simply will have to be made regardless, and I prefer option (a), I think it would likely be perceived in the same way you can jump right to orbit by switching from Horizons to base ED. ie Just a necessary compromise.

And whatever compromise they choose, be it a-d, given it's a necessity for multi-crew, I don't see any good reason why whatever solution they come up with has to compromise other parts of the game.

Convenience vs. immersion again when it comes to multi-crew.

The hard immersion way is to make everyone meet-up to form a crew, but you have to drop the crew back at that location again.
Or, crew can get off at a station and summon their ship - back to instant vs. time delay again.
Or, crew can leave and end up back at their ship - like dying.
Or, just forget any coordination requirement at all and let crew 'teleport' to their pilot's ship and back when they're done.

For whatever reason, I'm completely fine with the last option even though I think instant ship transport is a total joke.

 

[Lobstris]

Why it is suddenly about others? I thought it was *you* worried about your immersion. Even with others arguments are close to moot.

Suddenly? Keep up! I started with 'immersion' sometime yesterday as my initial reaction. Then became a little more concerned as time progressed with the general state of how this affects the game generally, then moved on to resignation and acceptance that what we're doing here isn't going to change anything, and we need to see what Frontier are proposing for costs for instant transfer in the beta. Indeed since Wolfechu, Bitstorm and ThatFuzzy have been chatting, I've mostly been thinking about how 2.3 is going to warp all of this further, and allow even more chances for explotation, depending on treatment.

 

[MadDogMurdock]

Well in yeah it probably will, like Wolfechu says multicrew is likely going to mean that compromise other wise it becomes a huge pita.

I'm actually ok with teleportation for multi-crew as long as you end up back where you were when you're done.

 

[Kayweg]

The gameplay values it adds are called strategy, planning, and tactics.
These are the things that generally separate great games with longevity from the rest.

Choice of ship is the most important aspect of the game. Removing any need to ever compromise on that removes a lot of gameplay.

The 'don't use it' argument is weak.

It certainly is.
If only that wisdom was applied to other cases, like PP, CQC, Engineers etc.
It's never a valid argument, it's only purpose is to gag critical voices in a condescending way.

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

So they respect your time and not mine?, my time is equally important as yours so flying 400k lS while exploring systems is time consuming.

You don't have to fly to and scan system twice, have you?

 

[VerticalBlank]

Sorry, TLDR but just nope anyway.

Here are just two things that instant ship transportation make completely pointless:

- Shipyards and Outfitting: we no longer need any shipyards or outfitting except the good ones. Location is no longer a factor. Any shipyard that doesn't stock everything or offer a discount is now completely irrelevant.
- FSD jump range: in fact just scrap FSDs altogether on any ship apart from the entry level Hauler, the Asp, DBX, and Anaconda. No one needs to ever travel anywhere in any other ship except these.

It's dumb, it'll always be dumb, and there's no justification for it other than dumbing down the game.

Nailed it very succintly.