The Galaxy - Is its size now considered to be a barrier to gameplay by the Developers?

[RiotRabit]

I wonder why we get paid to move cargo around, then? It would seem that there s no need for traders to exist!

Same reason fighter jets, C-130s, and battleships aren't used to transfer most of the cargo across the Atlantic. The military has better things to do and the private sector has WAY more ships.

For lore purposes, these military-grade FSDs could have only been recently purchased, brought online, and run by the pilot's federation.

 

[Niamhy]

I wonder why we get paid to move cargo around, then? It would seem that there s no need for traders to exist!

we have System security ships, and stations with barrages of huge guns. There's no need for combat fighters to exist!! Mah immershion!!

If this game was realistic, when you get blown up you'd have to spend three months/years floating in an escape pod or lying on the surface of some moon before some kindly soul happened by, picked you up and took you back to a station. Where you would spend months in hospital, before getting out and buying a totally new ship and carrying on.

... yeah, that sounds boring as hell. Just give us an insurance screen, let us rebuy, and play on. No-one complains about that. Fitting a new engine on your ship should take days or weeks... nope, one click. No-one complains about that. Transfering another ship from a station 200ly away should take (at least) a few hours.. nope, one click. So why is THAT particular mechanic a game-breaker, and every other part of Elite not a game breaker? Most of the threads since gamecom haven't been "OMG fighers, so cool" they have been "OMG insta-transfer is killing mah immershion!!". Jeez. insta-transfer is good. it's sensible. I don't have 8 hours a day to play elite. I want to do my thing and get on with the next mission. Not stop playing for two days while a ship gets transferred. I want Insta-transfer. A delay adds to unplayability, not the other way around.

--

the size of the galaxy IS presenting problems for the devs, you can see that. We are constantly told "there are things out there that players have never seen!"... and, since we've explored 1% of the galaxy, there are things out there that we never WILL see.
Part of this is a gameplay problem: my phone has better mapping and discovery software than my 33rd century starship. It's difficult to find a POI even if you have the x&y co-ordinates. Which is ridiculous, if they are scientifically projecting. If there in a small alien ruin in some landable planet in the core, chances are it will never be found, even if we knew what system to look in. Which is a waste of dev time and effort. And leading to dev frustration, to the point that they are giving us clues as to these things, like.. "gah!! find them already!!". it will get worse when atmospheric landings become a thing too.

 

[Lucius-Darcia]

However, if it's for CG participation purposes, in my experience all the CGs run for several days do they not? A transit time of, say, 2-3 hrs still ain't going to be an issue as far as CG participation goes, in almost all circumstances. Insta-transport still makes no sense even if it's specifically to increase CG participation as it's unlikely a wait time would ever prevent that participation (unless someone's very late on the scene in joining the CG, in which case they should've joined in sooner). And you hit the nail on the head in one respect - this insta-transport aspect seems to have been requested (has it? I know ship transfer has, many times, but instant ship transfer?) by those who want to attend CGs but CAN'T BE BOTHERED ....that's right CAN'T BE BOTHERED because they find the need to transport their ships around tedious. I have to wonder why such people, who seemingly can't be bothered to go through a little effort, even play this game at all given it's 1:1 scale representation of the galaxy....

You're so right.
IMO for CG's it was never necessary to have instant ship transport. I had usually brought my combat/trade ship to the specific location only once for the combat/trade CG and if i wanted to fly home in this time i used a taxi t-6 or taxi-hauler. This made sense. Bringing your heavy equipment to the place where the action is and fly home with a light ship. It wasn't that hard to do this travel but for all who were to lazy for this...sry but you were to lazy.
Most CG's run at least a week. Is it really hard to bring a ship within a week to a place?

Another aspect is, wherever suddenly some action started, they players had some time to take part before the gankers brought there FDL to this place. For example Jaques station. Now the gankers beam their FDL simple and be as same fast at the action as all other players now.


edit:
and i can still hear the voices complaining about a bigger jumprange because it would shrink the galaxy and the experience of the space. But instant ship transfer is okay???

 

[Wobblin-Gobblin]

We will be given the ability to transfer any of our ships to our current dock in 2.2 - there will be no delay in this transfer as the Developers have done some testing and any delay at all was considered to be too much of an impediment to gameplay.

In the recent Gamescom streams a recurring theme was that of "lowering the barriers to gameplay".

It would appear that travelling back to the location of a stored ship to fetch it back to one's location takes too much time and is therefore a barrier to gameplay that is unacceptable in the eyes of the Developers (and a large number of players, of course).

In a game where we have been given, to the best of the abilities of the Developers, a 1:1 interpretation of the our galaxy - with hundreds of billions of stars it seems that the size of the galaxy itself would now appear to be a problem to solve in the eyes of the Developers.

It will be interesting to see what further concessions to convenience we are given in future releases that will facilitate the multi-player aspect of the game.

I think exactly the same. Give us a delay in fetching a ship or let us use passenger transports to get (the player) to his ship

 

[WeirdWizard]

The debate isn't about ship transfers or not.

It's about instant vs something else.

I thought this debate was about the inconvenience of the galaxy scale... Nah just kidding I realise it's a duplicate of that other debate too But it is kind of absurd at this point for sure. Its a circular debate going round and round for the purpose of generating enough noise to force Frontier into making a change. Even though very few people have actually engaged with the core issues. A delay is essentially meaningless as a balance factor and so would only deliver an improved sense of realism. But either that delay will be trivial (still unrealistic) or it'll be long enough as to undermine the key usecase of the feature in the first place. Of course this should all be being said that other thread and it has been many times already.

 

[TheDayman]

Wow so much hostility in this thread - I'd almost think this was about PvP. Let's all relax, smoke some onion-head, and have a drum circle to beat it out. Last one to the Dweller has to bring Space Doritos (now with the added flavor of Imperial Slaves!)

 

[Bomba Luigi]

You're so right.
IMO for CG's it was never necessary to have instant ship transport. I had usually brought my combat/trade ship to the specific location only once for the combat/trade CG and if i wanted to fly home in this time i used a taxi t-6 or taxi-hauler. This made sense. Bringing your heavy equipment to the place where the action is and fly home with a light ship. It wasn't that hard to do this travel but for all who were to lazy for this...sry but you were to lazy.
Most CG's run at least a week. Is it really hard to bring a ship within a week to a place?

Another aspect is, wherever suddenly some action started, they players had some time to take part before the gankers brought there FDL to this place. For example Jaques station. Now the gankers beam their FDL simple and be as same fast at the action as all other players now.


edit:
and i can still hear the voices complaining about a bigger jumprange because it would shrink the galaxy and the experience of the space. But instant ship transfer is okay???

Giving all ships higher and equal jumprange would be much better, because then it would also mean you can go exploring with whatever Ship you like the look/sound/handling while having a good jumprange for sure.

 

[Siranui]

Giving all ships higher and equal jumprange would be much better, because then it would also mean you can go exploring with whatever Ship you like the look/sound/handling while having a good jumprange for sure.

Well if that's on the table, we should give all the ships the same guns and shields as well. That way I can go bounty hunting in what ever ship I like the look/sound/handling while having good guns. :|

 

[Sans Daring]

we have System security ships, and stations with barrages of huge guns. There's no need for combat fighters to exist!! Mah immershion!!

If this game was realistic, when you get blown up you'd have to spend three months/years floating in an escape pod or lying on the surface of some moon before some kindly soul happened by, picked you up and took you back to a station. Where you would spend months in hospital, before getting out and buying a totally new ship and carrying on.

... yeah, that sounds boring as hell. Just give us an insurance screen, let us rebuy, and play on. No-one complains about that. Fitting a new engine on your ship should take days or weeks... nope, one click. No-one complains about that. Transfering another ship from a station 200ly away should take (at least) a few hours.. nope, one click. So why is THAT particular mechanic a game-breaker, and every other part of Elite not a game breaker? Most of the threads since gamecom haven't been "OMG fighers, so cool" they have been "OMG insta-transfer is killing mah immershion!!". Jeez. insta-transfer is good. it's sensible. I don't have 8 hours a day to play elite. I want to do my thing and get on with the next mission. Not stop playing for two days while a ship gets transferred. I want Insta-transfer. A delay adds to unplayability, not the other way around.

Because you're treating the rules of narrative and immersion as a simple constant. That if you don't notice X you won't notice Y. Immersion and verisimilitude are not constants. Illusions of realism and the balance of flow don't work in such simple ways - otherwise film-making would be easy. If a woman gives birth on film, we see the act if we're told she's about to give birth. She doesn't go from dress to having a child in her hand. We require the transition (in most cases) from one state of narrative point to the next. However, we don't need to see genitals, fecal matter, small bloody real babies... we accept that the slightly large, slightly clean, and quite dignified birth as part of the illusion - it doesn't fit out of place in the "world" the story creates. It fits.

Well I say it fits, if it was a world where the verisimilitude was set to be very real, that the film was pushing for a realistic setting, that might be at odds. If we saw it all in that world, warts and all, a dignified "Hollywood" birth with gown draped between the legs so the doctor can't see etc would seem odd. Suddenly that wouldn't be so accepting the audience. It would be at odds with the verisimilitude of the world.

And this is where we are. There are no constants, beyond the verisimilitude we expect from Elite. We don't "die" in Elite. Well we do, but to maintain a feel of realism, Elite gives you a rebuy screen, to suggest insurance, to suggest realism. Not total realism, because Elite never pretends to be that, it's a half-way nod between a real, breathing world, and a game. That's the verisimilitude and that's what insta-transport breaks. There is NO nod at all, no half-way. To be honest, if they'd said there's a 30min wait for the ship to arrive, most would have said "okay, fine. Probably not REAL (they'd need to push the paperwork through, move the ship to a hauler, and even by the faster hauler in Elite duration you'd probably looking for a longer time than that depending on the distance), but there would be enough "nod" to the reality and enough concession to the fact, it's a game, to work.

We have none of that with this. There is NO nod to the Elite world's realism. It's PURE game-mechanics, and as such, it thereby breaks the verisimilitude of the game.

Simply put, it sticks out like a sore thumb where simple speed mechanics of refuel or repair, do not. Repair and refuel are ONLY done in dock. They have a noise. They are giving "world" nods while being a gaming mechanic. That's part of the Elite verisimilitude. This has zero of that.

So people, please, whether you want this or not, don't try and justify it by using other comparisons. There are none. If there were, the verisimilitude of Elite would be different and we would not be (mostly) up in arms.

 

[Bomba Luigi]

Well if that's on the table, we should give all the ships the same guns and shields as well. That way I can go bounty hunting in what ever ship I like the look/sound/handling while having good guns. :|

True dat, we should do it.

 

[Niamhy]

Personally, I think people feel threatened by insta-transfer. You can't gun down that trader in the Type 9 anymore, cos he will spawn in dock, get in his Anaconda, and hunt you down. Your air-superiority is threatened by it, not your immersion hehe

 

[warbaby2]

True dat, we should do it.

Yea! Funk meritocracy, every ship is equal, every player is equal, every playstyle is equal! Weeee!!!

 

[bladerunner900]

Personally, I think people feel threatened by insta-transfer. You can't gun down that trader in the Type 9 anymore, cos he will spawn in dock, get in his Anaconda, and hunt you down. Your air-superiority is threatened by it, not your immersion hehe

A very good point. [praise]

I used to do that early on, when I first started this game (2014). Do some A-B-C-A trading, then switch to my A class Cobra III to clear out some persistent NPC pirates that got annoying.

 

[Bomba Luigi]

Yea! Funk meritocracy, every ship is equal, every player is equal, every playstyle is equal! Weeee!!!

You can always Imagine they are not, no problem here

 

[buellpilot]

So why is THAT particular mechanic a game-breaker, and every other part of Elite not a game breaker?

None of the other mechanics you mentioned, CMDR respawn, module fit out, etc effect anything else they are purely time savings.

Instant transfer of ships removes the need for the jump range mechanic in ALL ships. Travel in a TAXI build ship and instantly appear in your warship.

In a community goal scenario players weighed down with cargo will always be the second wave, the first wave of players to arrive will have travelled in empty TAXI ships and will now be waiting with battle ready built ships.

Even if that doesn't happen, it is how the situation will be interpreted. If instant transfer goes ahead it wont break the game as people with get on with playing their way. But it might break Community Goals as those who used to make the effort to go won't bothering going, and those that need the instant gratification of instant transfer won't stick around to complete the Community Goal.

 

[Sans Daring]

Personally, I think people feel threatened by insta-transfer. You can't gun down that trader in the Type 9 anymore, cos he will spawn in dock, get in his Anaconda, and hunt you down. Your air-superiority is threatened by it, not your immersion hehe

So you're suggesting a good 80% of the forums are griefers who are fed up they can't bully trade ships? Classy!

 

[RiotRabit]

Personally, I think people feel threatened by insta-transfer. You can't gun down that trader in the Type 9 anymore, cos he will spawn in dock, get in his Anaconda, and hunt you down. Your air-superiority is threatened by it, not your immersion hehe

I disagree. I think people are annoyed by it, not threatened by it. And heck, most pirates I know welcome a challenge.

 

[Niamhy]

see, i don't see it like that. Insta-transfer will come in, and people will carry on playing more or less as they have been. As for CGs, it will enable MORE participation. Mining CG at Jaques? instead of 5 players with mine-ships doing it, everyone at Jaques will be able to do it. Near a Combat CG in your Type 9? Jump in your Corvette and get involved. So it will add to participation, not stop people bothering.

 

[Roybe]

You must have missed all of the threads where players air their opinions that having to spend a (potentially large) percentage of their available play-time merely getting to a specific location or travelling to meet up with friends for some Wing gameplay spoils their enjoyment of the game.

It doesn't 'spoil the enjoyment'...it means time restricted people just do not play very often. I would love to travel to a CG and play there for a few nights...but traveling home...changing ships...then traveling to the CG means that it might be over before I get there...so, I don't pay any attention to CG's. Same thing for any other part of the game. All I generally have time for, currently, is a handful of missions to move the BGS around with. I'm happy doing that...but it would be nice to do some of the other 'things'....like help some group become a Power, etc.

To address the original post, size matters because it directly relates to time invested. The large a map is, the longer travel times are. If there is little to do during travel, other than the travel itself...long travel times become punishing. The shorter your time to play, the more punishing the activity feels. That's the real problem the game is having. When I could play 5-6 hours a day...the travel time was fine...I had nothing else to do...and gave me a great sense of place and action.

Now that I have less than 5 hours a week to play any game...I see a different side of the discussion...and see where the game is probably losing players. Of course there are stronger reasons...but this one compounds all the others...

 

[WeirdWizard]

see, i don't see it like that. Insta-transfer will come in, and people will carry on playing more or less as they have been. As for CGs, it will enable MORE participation. Mining CG at Jaques? instead of 5 players with mine-ships doing it, everyone at Jaques will be able to do it. Near a Combat CG in your Type 9? Jump in your Corvette and get involved. So it will add to participation, not stop people bothering.

A rare breath of sanity. Though still about ship transfer not Galaxy size inconvenience thing, what ever it was...