A Guide to Minor Factions and the Background Sim

[Abil Midena]

I've read through the last several pages (100 post/pg) to get up to date. I still have a couple questions on how it is now vs how it used to be before 2.1.

1. Is it still 15% to win War and 5% for Civil War?
2. When does the tick happen? Is state update synced, or when does that happen?
3. Are faction states still global, with impact being only local? (i.e. a faction in boom in one system is shown as boom everywhere, but the effects are only applied in the system where the boom is actually taking place).
4. Is there still an "extra day" for states after they are really over?
5. What happens after the 20/7 rule for expansion if those conditions can't be met? Does it go to 50/7 or does it just fail?
6. Where is the pop boundary for one commander to impact inf using 'trade for loss' (or profit I guess). It used to be a sys pop > ~ 20M couldn't be influenced by trade alone from one commander. Is this still true?

Thanks in advance. I know the BGS is a hydra in the fog, any info helps.

 

[Sentenza]

I've read through the last several pages (100 post/pg) to get up to date. I still have a couple questions on how it is now vs how it used to be before 2.1.

1. Is it still 15% to win War and 5% for Civil War?
2. When does the tick happen? Is state update synced, or when does that happen?
3. Are faction states still global, with impact being only local? (i.e. a faction in boom in one system is shown as boom everywhere, but the effects are only applied in the system where the boom is actually taking place).
4. Is there still an "extra day" for states after they are really over?
5. What happens after the 20/7 rule for expansion if those conditions can't be met? Does it go to 50/7 or does it just fail?
6. Where is the pop boundary for one commander to impact inf using 'trade for loss' (or profit I guess). It used to be a sys pop > ~ 20M couldn't be influenced by trade alone from one commander. Is this still true?

Thanks in advance. I know the BGS is a hydra in the fog, any info helps.

Several things have changed. I try to answer:

1) Threshold is now 5% for war and 3% for civil war
2) There is no definite time for the tick. Based on what I observed, I suspect it happens at the time the servers were last restarted (like, for a patch).
3) Impact is now global, except for conflict states. War appears to hit influence globally though.
4) Apparently yes, I can't see any state last less than four days
5) If first expansion fails, faction enters "investment" state then retries at further distance. If even this fails, sorry.
6) Don't know.

 

[_trent_]

- selling legal no demand-no profit goods was bad for the markets owner influence (i didn't test that in 2.1.)

I'd be really interested to know if that is still the case.

 

[goemon]

I'd be really interested to know if that is still the case.

do a test. go to a no-traffic system (at the edge of the bubble, low population, outpost >10000 ls from entry point), and sell something with a loss, like biowaste. do nothing else in that system, and record the influence changes over some ticks.

 

[Deleted member 115407]

I'd be really interested to know if that is still the case.

do a test. go to a no-traffic system (at the edge of the bubble, low population, outpost >10000 ls from entry point), and sell something with a loss, like biowaste. do nothing else in that system, and record the influence changes over some ticks.

The mechanic seems strange to me. If I'm able to sell something, then there is demand for it. If there's no demand, the sale isn't going to happen at all. If it does happen, it is going to be at an exceptionally low price, which is basically a gain for the buyer. I don't understand why that should cause a faction to lose influence.

 

[_trent_]

do a test. go to a no-traffic system (at the edge of the bubble, low population, outpost >10000 ls from entry point), and sell something with a loss, like biowaste. do nothing else in that system, and record the influence changes over some ticks.

Sounds like a plan. I'll give it a try when I get the time.

 

[Abil Midena]

Several things have changed. I try to answer:

1) Threshold is now 5% for war and 3% for civil war
2) There is no definite time for the tick. Based on what I observed, I suspect it happens at the time the servers were last restarted (like, for a patch).
3) Impact is now global, except for conflict states. War appears to hit influence globally though.
4) Apparently yes, I can't see any state last less than four days
5) If first expansion fails, faction enters "investment" state then retries at further distance. If even this fails, sorry.
6) Don't know.

Hmm..

3. Do you mean if you're at war in one system, only assets in that system are at risk of gain/loss, but you'll lose some (how much?) inf in your other systems just because you're in a War?

 

[jimbeau1571]

The mechanic seems strange to me. If I'm able to sell something, then there is demand for it. If there's no demand, the sale isn't going to happen at all. If it does happen, it is going to be at an exceptionally low price, which is basically a gain for the buyer. I don't understand why that should cause a faction to lose influence.

I ssupect the influence through sales works thus:

Sale is profit to Cmdr = Inf gain to market owner
Sale is loss to Cmdr = Inf loss to market owner

The size of the Gain/Loss is determind by the number of transactions made. It was proved some time back about the 1t transaction, and this was modified eventually by FD, but thats not to say it is no longer transactual based.
Afterall, Agricultural systems buying in metals and selling crops would never, on a day to day net margin ever make a profit.

 

[Deleted member 115407]

I ssupect the influence through sales works thus:

Sale is profit to Cmdr = Inf gain to market owner
Sale is loss to Cmdr = Inf loss to market owner

Gain/Loss is determind by the number of transactions made. It was proved some time back about the 1t transaction, and this was modified eventually by FD, but thats not to say it is no longer transactual based.
Afterall, Agricultural systems buying in metals and selling crops would never, on a day to day net margin ever make a profit.

And that's what I mean about Supply and Demand. If there is no demand for something (e.g. 183 tons of Gallite at an AG colony), then the colony should just refuse to buy it. And if they do buy it at a loss for the CMDR, then they are essentially buying it at a gain for themselves. That doesn't make them chumps, it makes them shrewd businessmen who tend to maintain their influence and power.

Perhaps the effect should be "sell something at a loss, lose trade rank" instead.

 

[jimbeau1571]

So the tick has gone through for today, and more Famine has appeared.

A faction has gone into Famine, having previously never been in it. It's % is now 6.7, having been 3.5% just 4 ticks previous. The only reason it has risen is because my faction is currently expanding from this system and is losing its % during the expansion. The faction is also present in another system, where it now shows as Famine too, and its % remains at the 24.9% it has been at for the last 7 ticks.

I am at a complete loss now as to what the driving forces of what brings about Famine and Outbreak. There appears to be nothing consistent between a faction going into Famine, or a system containing factions going in to Famine or already in it.

Anyone have a hypothesis to offer?

Surely we can get this cracked.

 

[Walter2]

So the tick has gone through for today, and more Famine has appeared.

A faction has gone into Famine, having previously never been in it. It's % is now 6.7, having been 3.5% just 4 ticks previous. The only reason it has risen is because my faction is currently expanding from this system and is losing its % during the expansion. The faction is also present in another system, where it now shows as Famine too, and its % remains at the 24.9% it has been at for the last 7 ticks.

I am at a complete loss now as to what the driving forces of what brings about Famine and Outbreak. There appears to be nothing consistent between a faction going into Famine, or a system containing factions going in to Famine or already in it.

Anyone have a hypothesis to offer?

Surely we can get this cracked.

Thinking out loud.

Universal States: Boom, Bust, Expansion, Famine, Outbreak
Local States (which have a universal effect): War, Civil War, Election
Not sure, never had personal experience: Lockdown, Investment

As far as I can see (and that may not be far) the only Universal State that can be ascribed to a specific system is Expansion. How is it going to be possible to track down the source(s) of the other States?

 

[Sentenza]

Hmm..

3. Do you mean if you're at war in one system, only assets in that system are at risk of gain/loss, but you'll lose some (how much?) inf in your other systems just because you're in a War?

Yes, exactly. Loss can be huge, 10% or even 20% if not countered, and even countering it requires hard work, assuming someone else do not work against you. I assume it is intended to put a brake to reckless expansion, as now larger territories become harder to defend.

 

[jimbeau1571]

Yes, exactly. Loss can be huge, 10% or even 20% if not countered, and even countering it requires hard work, assuming someone else do not work against you. I assume it is intended to put a brake to reckless expansion, as now larger territories become harder to defend.

I may be misunderstanding you here but I don't believe that is true, and my spreadsheet seems to back this up.
The red and blue underlined %'s are the same factions in 2 systems.
The bottom underlined section is the system they are in C/War in.
As you can see the %'s didnt change in the CW system, yet did in the top system due to my activity (TR reports are empty bar my movement). When 2.1 first dropped we seemed to experience an 'In Conflict' loss even with no action taken. This appears to have stopped, my spreadsheet backs this up.

Having exited CW, those same 2 factions have just entered War again, being on the same % still. I will have a quick dabble in the CZ for on side, and look for a change in the other system, but i'm not expecting one.

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[Don Alvarez]

Anyone happen to know the min/max lengths for retreat state? Are they same as expansion (3-5 days)?

 

[Sentenza]

Well I can tell you that it has been confirmed by the developers, even if not officially announced (as many things in the BGS):

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/273347-Influence-tanking-when-in-faction-WAR-state?p=4296406&viewfull=1#post4296406

The first iteration of this was bugged as hell (who thought?) and actually extended WAR state to all systems without giving any way to counter, causing massive drops, you will find many bug reports about that. This was fixed in 2.1.05 and now war state remains confined to actual system in war, but effects spread everywhere even if in a lighter and somewhat counterable form.

In fact, being right now in an argument with a faction, I am seeing this all day. Just today saw a war state end with an average 10% loss on most systems... and I don't even talk about exploiting it!

 

[Moritz Norman]

Sorry for the noobish question: So our faction hit expansion, is there any way to tell where we expanded to?

We thought it would be to the system next door since it only has six factions but that doesn't appear to have happened. Do we just have to comb out from the system we expanded from?

 

[jimbeau1571]

Well I can tell you that it has been confirmed by the developers, even if not officially announced (as many things in the BGS):

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/273347-Influence-tanking-when-in-faction-WAR-state?p=4296406&viewfull=1#post4296406

The first iteration of this was bugged as hell (who thought?) and actually extended WAR state to all systems without giving any way to counter, causing massive drops, you will find many bug reports about that. This was fixed in 2.1.05 and now war state remains confined to actual system in war, but effects spread everywhere even if in a lighter and somewhat counterable form.

In fact, being right now in an argument with a faction, I am seeing this all day. Just today saw a war state end with an average 10% loss on most systems... and I don't even talk about exploiting it!

Well it might just be region/faction specific as my spreadsheet shows you I am not suffering this in my systems now, and haven't since one of the first patches to 2.1
Be interesting to know what the Devs said in acknowledging the issue.

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Sorry for the noobish question: So our faction hit expansion, is there any way to tell where we expanded to?

We thought it would be to the system next door since it only has six factions but that doesn't appear to have happened. Do we just have to comb out from the system we expanded from?

If you have just gone into Expansion, you have about 5 days to wait at which point a notice will appear in the system news at a station.

 

[Sentenza]

Sorry for the noobish question: So our faction hit expansion, is there any way to tell where we expanded to?

We thought it would be to the system next door since it only has six factions but that doesn't appear to have happened. Do we just have to comb out from the system we expanded from?

Just look at system newspapers, they will tell you everything

 

[Moritz Norman]

Oh, so we don't expand instantly? It will be sometime within five days after we go from Pending: Expansion to State: Expansion? (I did search, some older posts indicate it happens instantly).

People are telling me that there's nothing in the newspaper yet. I'm trying to coordinate this from vacation on a work laptop that can't really run Elite.

 

[jimbeau1571]

Oh, so we don't expand instantly? It will be sometime within five days after we go from Pending: Expansion to State: Expansion? (I did search, some older posts indicate it happens instantly).

People are telling me that there's nothing in the newspaper yet. I'm trying to coordinate this from vacation on a work laptop that can't really run Elite.

research would make you think that, as it used to be the case but changed with 2.1 Engineers.