The Galaxy - Is its size now considered to be a barrier to gameplay by the Developers?

[Soliluna]

To get back on topic - I wouldn't say it's an inconvenient - far from it. It is certainly a challenge though, but it's always been a core part of the design.

Michael

Michael - I always enjoy your team's ability to divide the community with how you implement features. I think back to the early interviews where you all spoke about what you would like to see in the future of Elite if possible and wonder whether this is the type of placeholder feature that you put in now but expand upon in the future if it makes sense.

Like - if we are ever able to walk around a station, I think it would be awesome to look in on the manufacturing process - witnessing the individual components of a ship being hastily fabricated by gigantic machines. If we're talking about near instantaneous availability I expect some dizzying dance moves from these machines.

The consistency issues irk me somewhat and I find cheap implementations suspect but understand that this is sometimes all you can do. Form should always follow function, I just hope that in the end it's the right decision for the game.

 

[nrage]

Then why cheapen it with instant ship teleportation. You are removing a part of that challenge.

The F..! Flying from A to B is no longer a "challenge" it's just time consuming, padding between actual challenges. After 1,200 hours (according to in game statistics) I think I've earned the right to do a little less of the padding between the real "fun" parts of the game.

This thread is why we never get anything nice, people crap all over it before it's even seen the light of day. Can we all just calm our proverbials and wait and see what the details are going to be, the devil is in the details as they say and those details will determine whether this "works" or "breaks everything" and Frontier will tweak it to ensure the former, and not the latter, no matter what some of the squeaky wheels on this forum think.

 

[Mephane]

But for the guys and girls who have problems with the instant thing... can't we simply pretend we gave the transfer order a few hours ago?

Yes, we can indeed, as long as there is no lore that contradicts this in the first place.

 

[CMDR ColD_ZA]

The personal perspective of the ship transfer (as in, it's your ship) is an interesting point (I meant to reply to it earlier), and the current fiction construct doesn't play well with that.

Michael

Hi Michael,

Firstly, Thank you for engaging with the community re this discussion,

My points raised in another thread reflect what you mentioned in this quote,

my constructive feedback can be found here (I didn't want to pollute this thread with a copying and pasting from another thread)

having said all I did in that post, I have had time to think about what I would do if I was an armchair dev and came up with the following.

Disclaimer to the community: Please read my linked post before taking what I am about to say out of context

introduce a "per ship" cooldown of a few hours (say 3-5hrs for instance), That will still allow players to get their ships to that CG they want to participate in, or conflict zone with their Vulture when they are stuck in their type 9

That will still allow us to have an instant transfer that can not be abused/exploited to become a new travel meta of jumping around the bubble.

Players can engage in the content they want right then and there with no delays, but can not use an asp taxi to tow their ship around the galaxy in unrealistic timeframes..

Players can still move whole fleets of ships to their new base of operations instantly, but can not jump back and forth from one side of the bubble to the other in a exploity manner

That will still keep multipurpose ships relevant as they will be the best option of hopping round the bubble while engaging in content, it will keep combat ships from becoming pokemon that we carry around from one end of the bubble to the next and back in 20 mins et al, but will still allow time poor players to call over their ships at a whim and engage in content they are nearby to whilst in their type 9's

I was in the camp of "muh immersion" etc, but I would much rather have the community have their instant transfer convenience, but with some anti exploit restrictions or at a credit cost that make it impractical to carry all your ships around in your back pocket

(Just to clarify, I am saying each ship will have a separate cooldown, so if you transfer you FDL from Sol to Maia, you can't transfer that same ship for the next few hours, but you can still call your other ships as they have their own separate internal cooldown)

Have a Great weekend!

 

[Lobstris]

Back to the OT, space can be big. Space can be as huge as it is. 1-to-1 even. In my mind the problem is the *bubble* is too big. If the bubble was smaller, there would still be all of that lovely space for explorers to go get lost in, but everyone else would be generally closer together, CGs easier to get to etc. This is one reason I still prefer FFE's gameplay over E: D, the Federation and Empire are pretty much on top of each other.

Also, for those Alpha and Beta testers still around, when did you have the most fun with multiplayer? Was it when we were confined to 5-systems, 20 or so, the 'pill'? For me it was the 'pill' - the density of players per system and the number of encounters felt fine then. Yes, or vision was still rose tinted by the (T-Tauri) stars of potential in the game, but the scale also felt right.

(NB: If anyone says 'aha! so you don't want to waste travelling then if you think it's better if things were smaller', then imagine me blowing a raspberry in your direction before saying 'far lesser of two evils, mate'. )

 

[AnnuverScotinExile]

TBH. Ship transfer strikes me as an issue of similar gravitas, with the same level of doom mongering, to the 'should players appear as hollowed out icons on the scanner issue?', that raged across (at least?) two megathreads back in the DDF days. It had (and still has IMHO) the same level of distortion on player behaviour. And, like that issue, with time it has become de facto accepted that players and NPCs look different.

I can't say I'm happy with how icons on the scanners turned out, (wither transponders Sandro? wither transponders? ) but the game still exists!

Funnily enough, that's the only other topic that I spent as much effort in keeping updated on the threads and commenting. I did not partake of the Open vs group vs solo thread, largely because without the transponder, and in a galaxy full of people with lots of guns trying to force me to play their way, it was inevitable that I would eventually stop playing in open. No transponder + lots of players not playing my way = go hide in solo or a group. So sad.

 

[Robert Maynard]

Also, for those Alpha and Beta testers still around, when did you have the most fun with multiplayer? Was it when we were confined to 5-systems, 20 or so, the 'pill'? For me it was the 'pill' - the density of players per system and the number of encounters felt fine then. Yes, or vision was still rose tinted by the (T-Tauri) stars of potential in the game, but the scale also felt right.

That very much depends on one's definition of "fun" - I would expect that those who relish PvP liked it better when the bubble was small whereas those who didn't preferred it when the pill was bigger.

 

[Kitster]

The F..! Flying from A to B is no longer a "challenge" it's just time consuming, padding between actual challenges. After 1,200 hours (according to in game statistics) I think I've earned the right to do a little less of the padding between the real "fun" parts of the game.

This thread is why we never get anything nice, people crap all over it before it's even seen the light of day. Can we all just calm our proverbials and wait and see what the details are going to be, the devil is in the details as they say and those details will determine whether this "works" or "breaks everything" and Frontier will tweak it to ensure the former, and not the latter, no matter what some of the squeaky wheels on this forum think.

It's the padding and narrative that seperates ED from CQC.

 

[Weps]

But for the guys and girls who have problems with the instant thing... can't we simply pretend we gave the transfer order a few hours ago?

You'd be pleased to hear that many in the other threads (perhaps even the majority) have either proposed or accepted this as a viable compromise. As long as you can actually give the transfer order in advance through an option in the game.

Apparently though such a feature is too hard to implement for 2.2 or would cause disruptions in development.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

The F..! Flying from A to B is no longer a "challenge" it's just time consuming, padding between actual challenges. After 1,200 hours (according to in game statistics) I think I've earned the right to do a little less of the padding between the real "fun" parts of the game.

This thread is why we never get anything nice, people crap all over it before it's even seen the light of day. Can we all just calm our proverbials and wait and see what the details are going to be, the devil is in the details as they say and those details will determine whether this "works" or "breaks everything" and Frontier will tweak it to ensure the former, and not the latter, no matter what some of the squeaky wheels on this forum think.

Well thats pleasent. I personally find flying my ship great fun myself whether I am getting another ship or not, no matter where I go. So yes it is all part of the challenge and the experience for me.

So yes removing that cheapens it for me. That is why I came up with a compromise if you bothered to look which will still make the transport instant but expensive and has some kind or lore attached to it as well for the immersion folks.

Here it is:

I don't think anyone likes the 3D printing thing, its just wrong. I am all against instant transfer, but I see some people want it, how about this:

Story and Lore, the basics:
A scientist has discovered a way to teleport stuff using quantum entanglement and witch space, maybe they are not sure how it works properly, you can get some good story ideas from this.

It doesn't work on organic material very well, so putting someone through the process will likely kill them. Well it did with all the test subjects/slaves.
You can only get this service at Hi-Tech systems as they are the only ones with the tech and the knowledge and money to put it into place.
It is also very expensive, so cargo running is still by far the cheapest way to move goods (so doesn't destroy the use for cargo ships in one fell swoop if you can just teleport or 3D print everything instantly).

The reasons for the high price, is that it will make people think about what they want to do. Something is kicking off nearby, I can jump to the nearest Hi-Tech system and transfer my ship which has to be at another Hi-Tech system or do I not pay that price and go get the ship myself.

It stops breaking the mission system and the the BGS, gives the players options and allows them to think what is the best option is for them, stops players having a swiss army knife of ships in their pocket at most times. Ships will still need their jump drives etc.

But their are limitations to the system.

It will give players options instead of the automatic go to button, which everyone will use. Options are good, both have their good and bad points, one takes time, the other a lot of credits.

If you can't afford the transfer system, it give you an incentive to play the game and get credits. Credits now have another reason to get instead of just ship upgrades.

 

[orfeboy]

Sorry Orfeboy, but you have lost me on this. The 3D printing we are talking about is not about the fighters stored on board your ships (it does in a round about way and agree that the fighter should be flatpacked as well), we are talking about the insta teleport of you main ships as in the fact that the 3D print them at the shipyard on request instantly, including all of your engineered modules etc. I can't really imagine an annaconda being flatpacked transported, and then unpacked at the station.

Yep, I can see that now!

ha, ha

Sorry, I got this mixed up with another thread I was replying to about the same thing

So many of these damn threads all talking about the same stuff!

 

[Lobstris]

That very much depends on one's definition of "fun" - I would expect that those who relish PvP liked it better when the bubble was small whereas those who didn't preferred it when the pill was bigger.

True. I can only speak for myself, and I've never shot another player since beta ended (well there was that one incident a couple of weeks back when my Cutter's turrets... let's not go there...), but it just 'felt' better to me (vague I know). Gah! Getting nostalgia for a beta, so sad! I really must get out into the real world...

 

[LoneWolf2183]

The F..! Flying from A to B is no longer a "challenge" it's just time consuming, padding between actual challenges. After 1,200 hours (according to in game statistics) I think I've earned the right to do a little less of the padding between the real "fun" parts of the game.

This thread is why we never get anything nice, people crap all over it before it's even seen the light of day. Can we all just calm our proverbials and wait and see what the details are going to be, the devil is in the details as they say and those details will determine whether this "works" or "breaks everything" and Frontier will tweak it to ensure the former, and not the latter, no matter what some of the squeaky wheels on this forum think.

I remember a thread where the OP wanted FD to make it where we couldn't land on planets of any kind. Because it would take away from the space sim feel of the game.

So by the looks of it. Ppl are gonna have a fit over anything the devs do.

 

[Robert Maynard]

I do not see how this thread is any different from the "Cmdr teleport" one as it covers the same topic in essence.

Good point - I've closed it.

 

[jprelph]

So I've just caught up with the thread. Thanks for everyone's input, as I've said before we do keep it in mind. There will be further discussions on the feature, although I do still feel that adding a time delay weakens the feature more than it solves any problems. One issue does resonate, and that's how far the jump can be, so we'll look into that. We still reserve the right to disagree with you

I see that people don't get that printing thing, which is a shame as it is used quite a bit anyway - for example food cartridges. We can review and change if needed, to be honest the feature is what is important in this instance. Yes, I appreciate the difference in scale, and as I mentioned before we're not talking about a single machine that just spits out a ship, it combines more economical processes as well.

The cost of the feature is also a balance, one that we'll refine through beta. Obviously we need to keep it accessible.

Michael

Hi Michael,

Thanks for taking the time to respond. One thing I want to query is whether there would be any re-balancing of PowerPlay if this feature is implemented, as it would enable fort/prep to be shipped considerably faster? That's one thing that adding a delay would solve - a 5 minute delay of shipping a vessel 100ly means that someone running fort to a distant system isn't really going to be saving time waiting for their taxi to be delivered each time.

Even a basic setup of assuming a base time of 1 minute plus 1 minute per 50ly and a linear SC scale would seem fair, and it would be explainable in a number of ways (specialist cargo transports/lifters who can use a nav beacon at the shipyard to cut SC times).

My big concern going straight in with instant ship transfers is that once something is in the game it's significantly harder for a feature to be removed. It feels like it would be better to start with delayed ship transfers, see if they improve things from your perspective (ie. make people use more ships I assume) and then you always have the option of cutting that time down or removing it. If you go straight in with instant transfers I would assume that would never be changed.

 

[EidLeWeise]

The personal perspective of the ship transfer (as in, it's your ship) is an interesting point (I meant to reply to it earlier), and the current fiction construct doesn't play well with that.

Michael

Heya Mike,

I assume by the current 'fiction construct' we're thinking about '3d printing' our ships in their hangers or some such. I have to admit that I liked the idea of NPCs transporting our ships in say Lynx Bulk Carriers. Give them an 'advanced' (and crazy large) drive which explains why they can jump so far, so fast. (Possibly the same drive that Capital Ships have, since we see their jump is is incredibly different from our own.) This doesn't fully explain why it is instant, since even if the jump itself was instant the ship being transported would need to undock, fly to the Carrier (parked up near the station), land and then the same in reverse. I recon that'd take me 5 mins easy to do, but frankly I am happy to call 5 minutes 'instant' for the sake of gameplay. Even if we just keep it fiction with no in game representation, having a theoretical carrier would let me pretend that it is still MY ship. Possibly more importantly down the line, it is still my dirty underwear in my cabin in my ship! This is why she has all the bangs and dents she has and she isn't some pristine freshly printed anonymous and replaceable component. Naturally later down the line we could see Bulk Carriers at stations with ships flying to them which would give more life to the space around stations and potentially it could add even more gameplay down the line.

Sincerely, Ben - aka Cmdr Eid LeWeise

 

[nrage]

Well thats pleasent

Seems to fit this thread quite well, and you ought to know I restrained myself. To be clear, my ire is not actually directed at you, but is a result of reading this thread. Your post was just a convenient hook to hang my post. Sorry, if I/it came across badly.

I personally find flying my ship great fun myself

As do I, this is why I play Elite and not NMS.

.. if you bothered to look ..

Lost in the big bad thread. Never attribute to malice that which can be attributed to laziness.

I don't think anyone likes the 3D printing thing

I do, assuming we're talking fighters now?

Makes perfect sense in that case. We can already 3D print houses - google it - the "printer" does the large sections and then you install pre-fab fittings. The Fighter 3D printer would operate on the same lines. The "restock" loads the complicated pre-fab electronics and hull-ink and then the 3D printer's job is to print the hull itself and with robotic arms etc install the pre-fab components.

If you were talking about 3D printing our main ships as an explanation for ship transfer then see below.

I am all against instant transfer, but I see some people want it, how about this:

Personally, I don't need a "lore" reason for it, this is a game, we all know it's a game. For the sake of the game itself the transfer should be instant.

The mechanics are really all that concern me. If it's too cheap, for too long a distance (note "too" used here is a relative/subjective term and we're not all going to agree) then it will "break" the game. If they get the balance just right then it will slot into the game and in 3 months no-one will think any more on the subject.

As an aside..

I cannot believe the lack of faith some people (not you) have shown Frontier in this thread. It boggles the mind that anyone would assume Frontier are trying to make a bad game. It boggles the mind yet further that people can accuse them of "not listening", here's a tip for those people; it is not that they're not listening, it's that they don't agree with you! Or, there is a very good technical, or other reason why it cannot be done "right now".

Many of the features in 2.2 are either things they always wanted to add, but had to schedule behind more important features, or they came from player requests. It just takes time for these to percolate through the development process. People need to realise that making games is hard, no matter how easy they make it look sometimes.

 

[CMDR ColD_ZA]

Heya Mike,

I assume by the current 'fiction construct' we're thinking about '3d printing' our ships in their hangers or some such. I have to admit that I liked the idea of NPCs transporting our ships in say Lynx Bulk Carriers. Give them an 'advanced' (and crazy large) drive which explains why they can jump so far, so fast. (Possibly the same drive that Capital Ships have, since we see their jump is is incredibly different from our own.) This doesn't fully explain why it is instant, since even if the jump itself was instant the ship being transported would need to undock, fly to the Carrier (parked up near the station), land and then the same in reverse. I recon that'd take me 5 mins easy to do, but frankly I am happy to call 5 minutes 'instant' for the sake of gameplay. Even if we just keep it fiction with no in game representation, having a theoretical carrier would let me pretend that it is still MY ship. Possibly more importantly down the line, it is still my dirty underwear in my cabin in my ship! This is why she has all the bangs and dents she has and she isn't some pristine freshly printed anonymous and replaceable component. Naturally later down the line we could see Bulk Carriers at stations with ships flying to them which would give more life to the space around stations and potentially it could add even more gameplay down the line.

Sincerely, Ben - aka Cmdr Eid LeWeise

+1 rep 100% agree

 

[Kicks]

Heya Mike,

I assume by the current 'fiction construct' we're thinking about '3d printing' our ships in their hangers or some such. I have to admit that I liked the idea of NPCs transporting our ships in say Lynx Bulk Carriers. Give them an 'advanced' (and crazy large) drive which explains why they can jump so far, so fast. (Possibly the same drive that Capital Ships have, since we see their jump is is incredibly different from our own.) This doesn't fully explain why it is instant, since even if the jump itself was instant the ship being transported would need to undock, fly to the Carrier (parked up near the station), land and then the same in reverse. I recon that'd take me 5 mins easy to do, but frankly I am happy to call 5 minutes 'instant' for the sake of gameplay. Even if we just keep it fiction with no in game representation, having a theoretical carrier would let me pretend that it is still MY ship. Possibly more importantly down the line, it is still my dirty underwear in my cabin in my ship! This is why she has all the bangs and dents she has and she isn't some pristine freshly printed anonymous and replaceable component. Naturally later down the line we could see Bulk Carriers at stations with ships flying to them which would give more life to the space around stations and potentially it could add even more gameplay down the line.

Sincerely, Ben - aka Cmdr Eid LeWeise

This gets my vote also!

 

[Barking_Mad]

David is very involved in the development of the game - he sits behind me

As for me having no soul - that's probably true.

Michael

I always wonder what goes through posters heads when they make comments like this