The Galaxy - Is its size now considered to be a barrier to gameplay by the Developers?

[knowles2]

Slippery slope (fallacy)

Not when they say at the same time as announcing this feature, that this is the direction they want the game to go in. An we already seen a lot of moves to making flying and moving around faster, in fact I think in the last 3 updates have all produce ways to travel faster in this game. With hints in galnet articles even faster ways to travel being introduced in the future.

So yes we seem to be on the slippery slope to instant teleportation of players themselves as they "lower barriers to entry".

Not exactly desirable, but not everyone playing ED have strategic mind or play for strategic purposes.

Not every game have to be design to be played by everyone or fit everyone playing style.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

You still need to own a ship with cargo capacity for the mission, so the limitations are clearly not redundant.

Further. Missions are generated randomly, so you cannot plan for this and fly your cargo ship there in the first place. There are influencing factors on the random generation which make some system more likely to generate the sorts of missions you might want, but it's still "random". The fact that you can now bring the right ship for the mission to the mission location goes some way to addressing this already existing imbalance. Otherwise, you'd have to fly off and get your cargo ship, only to return and find a mission board full of combat missions instead. Yay.

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -


I insist they implement it! It's the single best QOL feature in this update. I insist they do not listen to you. Srsly tho, why not wait and see how it pans out in the beta before judging?

That is the thing, you do not need to plan for anything anymore. You have your didcated ships at your disposal at any time. It trivialises it. There are no consequence to the ship you fly anymore. It make it easy. Easy isn't fun. If you don't have the right ship for that mission, you either buy one there and then and take the time to outfit it properly or take another mission, now it is insta teleport ship and take mission. Easy not fun or interesting in any way. It is just a get rich quick button.

You take away all the consequences of flying that ship in the first place. You may as well just fly around in a modded Hauler and summon your ships when needed.

I hope it isn't implemented as planned, as I see it as the single most game breaking feature they are thinking about.

 

[nrage]

FD said about the lowering of barriers and delays to getting to undefined gameplay 'it's the direction we want the game to go...' therefore it's not a slippery slope fallacy, it's actually extrapolating what FD has said. Faster, more instant, is the way it wants to go. Player telporting for multicrew is the only way that can be implemented. If you won't wait while you can play for a ship, there is no way you'll wait for your mate to pop across from beagle point to be your gunner. Ergo...

Not when they say at the same time as announcing this feature, that this is the direction they want the game to go in. An we already seen a lot of moves to making flying and moving around faster, in fact I think in the last 3 updates have all produce ways to travel faster in this game. With hints in galnet articles even faster ways to travel being introduced in the future.

So yes we seem to be on the slippery slope to instant teleportation of players themselves as they "lower barriers to entry".

Slippery Slope
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope
"..a party asserts that a particular result will probably (or even must inevitably) follow from a given decision or circumstance.."

The assertion was that Frontier would add "instant transport of players", and that this follows inevitably from the decision to add "instant transport of ships" or "it's the direction we want the game to go" or "lower barriers to entry". The decision to make one aspect of the game less of a chore in no way implies they will inevitably do the same thing elsewhere. They might, but they also might not.

In reality the decision to add "instant transport of players" is a separate decision, and in no way linked to the decision to add "instant transport of ships".

Saying it is, is very clearly a Slippery Slope fallacy.

 

[JughedJones]

FD said about the lowering of barriers and delays to getting to undefined gameplay 'it's the direction we want the game to go...' therefore it's not a slippery slope fallacy, it's actually extrapolating what FD has said. Faster, more instant, is the way it wants to go. Player telporting for multicrew is the only way that can be implemented. If you won't wait while you can play for a ship, there is no way you'll wait for your mate to pop across from beagle point to be your gunner. Ergo...

Anyhow, space dragons it is. Oh, and an add one billion credits button, because who cares anymore about the stuff except 'gameplay'.

EDIT:

What you just posted is precisely what a slippery slope argument looks like.


I felt like the moderator needed to be moderated.

 

[nrage]

That is the thing, you do not need to plan for anything anymore. You have your didcated ships at your disposal at any time. It trivialises it. There are no consequence to the ship you fly anymore. It make it easy. Easy isn't fun. If you don't have the right ship for that mission, you either buy one there and then and take the time to outfit it properly or take another mission.

You take away all the consequences of flying that ship in the first place. You may as well just fly around in a modded Hauler and summon your ships when needed.

You missed my point entirely. The missions are currently random, you cannot plan. Given that, the option to react to the situation is a necessity. Thus, instant ship transfer.

 

[knowles2]

Yes, we accept insta-spawn along with insta-repair, insta-refuel.. restock, outfitting, cargo handling etc... None of these 'instant' mechanics affect gameplay like instant transportation of ships. Some people applaud these changes. Some people are more worried about this 'low priority' QoL feature being introduced in the proposed way.

Plus I always had a slight hope that insta-repair, -refuel and restock, outfitting and cargo handling would only be there until walking around stations and NCPs interactions on stations was introduce to the game. Then having a time delay, a few minutes, would be a gentle way of pushing players into exploring the stations.

 

[Yaffle]

EDIT:

What you just posted is precisely what a slippery slope argument looks like.


I felt like the moderator needed to be moderated.

I am, very much so. I'll stop now, but it's hard to explain just how silly the idea is and how disturbing, to me, the 'direction of the game' statement is.

 

[LoneWolf2183]

Plus I always had a slight hope that insta-repair, -refuel and restock, outfitting and cargo handling would only be there until walking around stations and NCPs interactions on stations was introduce to the game. Then having a time delay, a few minutes, would be a gentle of pushing players into exploring the stations.

I honestly wouldn't mind this.

Plus having cargo sent from and to the ship taking time as well.

 

[knowles2]

Now you're just trying to score points.


Michael

An he's scoring them like world class striker does.

 

[Kitster]

Please, explain to me oh wise one, how this feature which has only recently been announced, not seen in beta, whose mechanics have yet to be fully explained because they're still being discussed internally by the developers themselves, how instant transfer breaks the game. Please. Please explain to me how this breaks the game.

You know what the kicker is? It doesn't break the game at all. It breaks your immersion and it only does that because (and this goes for most of you) you have this sudden fear that someone will be able to do things better than you, that somehow the significance of your actions in a game/simulation of a galaxy where your actions alone mean next to nothing will be reduced to something less than the already infinitesimally trivial impact you, as a mote of light floating in a sea of darkness, provide.

This doesn't break exploration. Last I checked there is a single, one, uno, eins, lone station sitting out near the core.
This doesn't break trade, even though it's not trade that is at the core of 90% of the arguments against it, but profit margins of the individual player at CGs given the theoretical "abuse" of a feature we still don't know the basic mechanics of.

Classy response mate. I've looked again at the 50 or so words I wrote. I can't find a single reference to 'breaks game' or 'breaks immersion'. I've tried three or four times with no luck. Closest I can find is 'affect gameplay'. Is this what you're referring to? I'm almost quoting Mr Brooks when I said that.

The low priority is that it is a quality of life feature, as opposed to new gameplay, although in this case it does significantly impact gameplay.

Michael

 

[JughedJones]

I am, very much so. I'll stop now, but it's hard to explain just how silly the idea is and how disturbing, to me, the 'direction of the game' statement is.

No harm meant, brother. (I'm on the side of delayed transport by the way!)

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

You missed my point entirely. The missions are currently random, you cannot plan. Given that, the option to react to the situation is a necessity. Thus, instant ship transfer.

What, that doesn't make sense. Mission are not totally random, you will get certain missions depending on what state the system is in, so yes you can plan. But that is not the issue. The issue is that it trivuilise ship choice, and takes away any consequnces of flying a ship. As said, all it is is a get rich quick button.

All you will do is fly a hauler or other cheap hi range ship till you find something you want to do and magically teleport your ship/s in.

 

[Bomba Luigi]

We may very well talk about stuff that isn't the reason why its comin in the first place tough. The size of the Galaxy may have created a problem over time, that is more and more players hording more and more ships resulting in us creating bases and homes we stick a lot too and move around the Galaxy less. That I think could be seen as problem for the devs, as they want players to move around to see more they have stated before that players don't see a lot of stuff and then complain there isn't much and that is not the players fault, but theres because they have not enough incentives to go out and see other stuff.

Then comes 2.1 and a big need for module storage from the player base - Module S T O R A G E - yet more stuff hoarded in a place that creates yet more incentive to not travel around too much. Tough as it is with 2.1 and mods, the need for a such a storage is very valid and reasonable so they kinda have to do something and find themself confronted with the problem of how to make players not to stick to a place too much. Surley they don't wanna make it even bigger, so two birds with one stone with Ship and module transfar and being able to do it instant.

Makes lots of sense, I do think we talk about stuff that isn't the reason they implement this in the first place which makes it unlikley to have much effect on the choice tbh. They wanna give us Bananas and we talk about how we don't like Apples.

 

[Heater]

We like the potential effects this could have on interactions in the galaxy, and the benefit comes from instant transfer. We'll see in beta how it pans out.

Michael

Michael..... You keep referring to the beta.... can we have it now Please

 

[Arubeto]

Heya Mike,

I assume by the current 'fiction construct' we're thinking about '3d printing' our ships in their hangers or some such. I have to admit that I liked the idea of NPCs transporting our ships in say Lynx Bulk Carriers. Give them an 'advanced' (and crazy large) drive which explains why they can jump so far, so fast. (Possibly the same drive that Capital Ships have, since we see their jump is is incredibly different from our own.) This doesn't fully explain why it is instant, since even if the jump itself was instant the ship being transported would need to undock, fly to the Carrier (parked up near the station), land and then the same in reverse. I recon that'd take me 5 mins easy to do, but frankly I am happy to call 5 minutes 'instant' for the sake of gameplay. Even if we just keep it fiction with no in game representation, having a theoretical carrier would let me pretend that it is still MY ship. Possibly more importantly down the line, it is still my dirty underwear in my cabin in my ship! This is why she has all the bangs and dents she has and she isn't some pristine freshly printed anonymous and replaceable component. Naturally later down the line we could see Bulk Carriers at stations with ships flying to them which would give more life to the space around stations and potentially it could add even more gameplay down the line.

Sincerely, Ben - aka Cmdr Eid LeWeise

+1 from me, to. This would be the best and most satisfactory way to implement such an important feature, IMHO, even if it takes more time and effort to develop.

 

[nrage]

I am, very much so. I'll stop now, but it's hard to explain just how silly the idea is and how disturbing, to me, the 'direction of the game' statement is.

Fair enough.

To me, the existence of this thread and the amount of traffic it has gotten is what is "silly" and "disturbing". Frontier have the power to giveth and taketh away. You can bet that if the feature is actually game breaking then they will remove it. They are not afraid to make changes and really do want to create the best game possible. People need to have a little more faith, IMO.

I suspect that so long as it's not game breaking then whether it remains, or not, and the details of cost/distance will be a subjective call and not everyone is going to agree.

If it remains instant then the people concerned with lore/realism are going to be upset, but there is nothing that can be done about that. The rest of us will be happy. You cannot please all of the people all of the time.. yada yada.

 

[Kicks]

+1 from me, to. This would be the best and most satisfactory way to implement such an important feature, IMHO, even if it takes more time and effort to develop.

Well, for the moment it's zero-cost for development. Visuals can be put in at a later date. It's just a decent lore-friendly explanation that isn't printing things out.

 

[Cynaqq]

FD said about the lowering of barriers and delays to getting to undefined gameplay 'it's the direction we want the game to go...' therefore it's not a slippery slope fallacy, it's actually extrapolating what FD has said. Faster, more instant, is the way it wants to go. Player telporting for multicrew is the only way that can be implemented. If you won't wait while you can play for a ship, there is no way you'll wait for your mate to pop across from beagle point to be your gunner. Ergo...

Anyhow, space dragons it is. Oh, and an add one billion credits button, because who cares anymore about the stuff except 'gameplay'.

Way to prove something isn't a particular fallacy by committing the same fallacy not once but, what 3 times if counted that right. Nice one...

This post is brilliant. It could very well be put into books as an example under the definition of slippery slope argument.

 

[JuicerPrime]

Anyhow, space dragons it is. Oh, and an add one billion credits button, because who cares anymore about the stuff except 'gameplay'.

Come on, Yaffle - it's not nearly that bad if you consider that we already have instant cargo loading, repairing, refitting, reloading, and refuelling. All of these things should take time, probably quite a lot of time in the case of repairing and refitting, and no-one complains about them so far as I know. On top of that we don't know yet what conditions will be attached to ship transfer - personally I'd like a shipping/printing cost, even if it's instant - so cranking up the hysteria before anything is finalized seems a bit premature all things considered.

 

[nrage]

What, that doesn't make sense. Mission are not totally random, you will get certain missions depending on what state the system is in, so yes you can plan. But that is not the issue. The issue is that it trivuilise ship choice, and takes away any consequnces of flying a ship. As said, all it is is a get rich quick button.

All you will do is fly a hauler or other cheap hi range ship till you find something you want to do and magically teleport your ship/s in.

You can plan to some degree, but not always RNGesus will inevitably screw you over, is that fair? Not really, and ship transfer will alleviate that. IMO, this is the issue.

There is no issue of "ship trivialisation". You/I will still fly the ship we want to fly, we're not going to fly a hauler everywhere. Sure, someone is going to do that, but firstly "so what"? I don't care if they do, it's not a competition. Secondly, they're ultimately only hurting themselves. They'll get interdicted and killed some of the time and the rest of the time .. the hauler is not all that fun to fly.

So, the only change I expect to see once this goes into beta/live is that some of the time I will transport a ship to take advantage of a mission/situation. The rest of the time I'll be flying my engineered Python - because it's badass.