2.2's Instant Ship and Module Transport - Yay or Nay?

[Robert Maynard]

I have 3 accounts. So three commanders active; one is for newbie streams, so I have two commanders in play.

So for me? Timers mean I now pinball between commanders because it's about all I can do, because how often am I going to go mining or trading or whatever before I eventually end up just sitting there waiting for some microwave to go *ding* and pop a ship out?

So yah, instead of having some time in one, some in the other and having flexibility and choice I'd be pinballing backwards and forwards to basically bypass what is ostensible a "hold queue" for my ship(s).

I really don't want to have to do this because how is that fun? And what does that achieve? We're now bypassing the delay by using another commander to fill in the time.

And for anyone (which is most) who only have one account, they can start a transfer, but must then either forcibly do other things, or sit and wait.

I think that that instead won't create a meaningful mechanic that's useful but instead create frustration as that delay starts getting old and people gravitate to idling, or just not using the mechanic at all because at least if you drive you are actively engaged in the game.

Compared to stopping what one is doing to travel to retrieve the desired ship (if it can even travel to the player's current location), a delay comparable to a one way trip by the ship in question would be a time saving. I find the idea that the player would sit doing nothing at all in their current location rather an amusing prospect - why was the player in that location in the first place? Presumably they were in another ship to engage in another role - the notion that they must stop doing that just because they plan to do something else when they receive their desired ship is a little strange to me.

Jump scooping at pace between two locations is not the most engaging of gameplay options - I'd prefer to be doing something else in-game while the summoned ship was in transit.

As a possible solution to the "lost in transit" ship, there could be an option, during the time when the ship is "in transit" for the player to request that the ship dock at the nearest station (determined by the game estimating the distance travelled in relation to transit time elapsed then picking the nearest station with a shipyard - but only requiring to make that estimate when specifically requested by the player) - then the player could travel to that station to pick up the ship - this would remove, in my opinion, any limitation relating to the ship's inaccessibility when in transit - and would add a compromise to the feature, i.e. stop short sooner but require to fetch it from there instead.

 

[kofeyh]

.... or, an even worse prospect, implemented the feature with no delay at all with no chance to remedy their mistake later.

People are so paranoid about this, that anything, no matter how desperate and game breaking, suddenly looks good. Panicking mobs generally don't make wise decisions. Humans either.

This thread is basically a 7000+ post knee jerk reaction that wants to solve the problem by adding simple timers. Rather than asking frontier if they can rethink the mechanic.

Because if people believe a timer suddenly means the developer will add more features to the mechanic, then I can only point at where they are used now. And that hasn't mean anything of the sort.

If enough people shout, it'll switch from instant, to delayed, with simplistic ship vanishes, ship appears. And everyone will still complain because that is unlikely to actually solve concerns, despite apparences.

 

[NeilF]

These are all just examples of arbitrary delay. I'm not sure what part of "arbitrary timer" is being missed here. But people having ships stuck in limbo between a and b is what this translates to.

Arbitrary: based on random choice or personal whim, rather than any reason or system

Huh? I'm wondering if the terms some people are using are what's causing mis-understandings and confusion?

I want the ship to be transfered to my current system. So it's a definite choice I'm making?

And once selected, it's then in transit for the time it will take to travel from A-->B as calculated by a simple bit of code.

Nothing arbitrary there?

And it all requires we must either do other tasks, or sit and wait. If the situation changes, we can't just go hop to some station in between and grab the ship.

All of these examples basically pull one or more assets out of the game and denies commanders the ability to use them again until X period expires.

This is really the fundimental problem of call to, versus send to. Call to becomes problematic as soon as you "lock" an asset because it's "transferring" to another station.

I'd rather frontier went back to the design desk, rather than be pressured in to some arbitrary delay to try and appease people.

So your problems is once in transit, it's the fact the ship is locked away from you for that period in time?

I understand now... So if you jump a couple of systems away, your ship is still enroute to your old system (where you asked for it to be transported to).

Well:-
1) Hard luck
or
2) The game let's you ask for it to be transfered to your current location, and a simple recalc is down working out where it is now. Fairly simply done IMHO.


But yes (2) is a lump of new considerations that I doubt FD are even contemplated given they are going "instant".

But if that's your concern I understand it now, and I agree being able to transport your ship to your current location, no matter if its at another station or in transit would be nice... And I don't see the coding as very much more complicated IMHO.

 

[Weps]

I understand now... So if you jump a couple of systems away, your ship is still enroute to your old system (where you asked for it to be transported to).

The game let's you ask for it to be transfered to your current location, and a simple recalc is down working out where it is now. Fairly simply done IMHO.

Imagine the frustration of that poor NPC pilot transporting your ship:

COMMANDER NEILF

"Would you like to earn a bonus, pilot? Well get this ship to its new destination within the allotted timeframe and I'll pay you one."

ADDITIONAL

OPTIONAL TIME 2H 35M
LEFT

OPTIONAL 45612 CR
REWARD



Now imagine his frustration with instant ship transfer:


COMMANDER NEILF

"Would you like to earn a bonus, pilot? Well get this ship to its new destination within the allotted timeframe and I'll pay you one."

ADDITIONAL

OPTIONAL TIME 0H 0M
LEFT

OPTIONAL 45612 CR
REWARD

 

[kofeyh]

So your problems is once in transit, it's the fact the ship is locked away from you for that period in time?

I understand now... So if you jump a couple of systems away, your ship is still enroute to your old system..

We are used to being able to grab our ships at any time for any reason. So yes we have to fly about but they are always readily available.

Delaying transfer means they are now not readily available and instead are completely unavailable until they arrive where we called them. This is fine if we don't leave. It's a problem if we trade or go do missions instead, to fill in the time and then we have to drive back to the original destination to uplift.

Which sort of defeats the purpose if ships just end up being transferred to where we were, not potentially are. Because unless we just sit at the station and wait, or log out, is pretty much exactly what is probably going to happen.

Because this QoL improvement is more likely to be valuable over longer ranges where the time saving is greatest. This equally means it's more likely the delays will be greater, than not.

I can do a lot in half an hour; many can. May not be anywhere where near the original destination by then. This ends up being a game of leap-frog.

So now do I call it where I am and stay put in the station, or do I do "other stuff" as has been endlessly explained, and find myself elsewhere and having to drive back again?

And it's just one example, just one, where timers perhaps don't quite work the way people might expect.

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

Imagine the frustration of that poor NPC pilot transporting your ship:

COMMANDER NEILF

"Would you like to earn a bonus, pilot? Well get this ship to its new destination within the allotted timeframe and I'll pay you one."

ADDITIONAL

OPTIONAL TIME 2H 35M
LEFT

OPTIONAL 45612 CR
REWARD



Now imagine his frustration with instant ship transfer:


COMMANDER NEILF

"Would you like to earn a bonus, pilot? Well get this ship to its new destination within the allotted timeframe and I'll pay you one."

ADDITIONAL

OPTIONAL TIME 0H 0M
LEFT

OPTIONAL 45612 CR
REWARD

I think people are expecting more of this mechanic than frontier would be willing to put in. No offence. Is your example even on the roadmap as a feature in any way shape or form?

 

[Mephane]

We are used to being able to grab our ships at any time for any reason. So yes we have to fly about but they are always readily available.

Delaying transfer means they are now not readily available and instead are completely unavailable until they arrive where we called them. This is fine if we don't leave. It's a problem if we trade or go do missions instead, to fill in the time and then we have to drive back to the original destination to uplift.

Which sort of defeats the purpose if ships just end up being transferred to where we were, not potentially are. Because unless we just sit at the station and wait, or log out, is pretty much exactly what is probably going to happen.

Because this QoL improvement is more likely to be valuable over longer ranges where the time saving is greatest. This equally means it's more likely the delays will be greater, than not.

I can do a lot in half an hour; many can. May not be anywhere where near the original destination by then. This ends up being a game of leap-frog.

And it's just one example, just one, where timers perhaps don't quite work the way people might expect.

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -



I think people are expecting more of this mechanic than frontier would be willing to put in. No offence.

Actually, we expected less. We expected just a tool that allows us to relocate our parked ships, without having to resort to throwaway taxi ships and ferrying them by hand all day long. Nothing more, nothing less.

Instead what we get makes any ship instantly available at any station with a shipyard, so that the very concept of having a defined base where one stores the ships dissolved entirely. You just have an inventory of all your ships everywhere, and a price for switching to another ship depending on how far away it was when you used it the last time.

 

[Joe Akeem]

Actually, we expected less. We expected just a tool that allows us to relocate our parked ships, without having to resort to throwaway taxi ships and ferrying them by hand all day long. Nothing more, nothing less.

Instead what we get makes any ship instantly available at any station with a shipyard, so that the very concept of having a defined base where one stores the ships dissolved entirely. You just have an inventory of all your ships everywhere, and a price for switching to another ship depending on how far away it was when you used it the last time.

I got tired of hammering that message in. Thanx for picking up the hammer.

 

[NeilF]

We are used to being able to grab our ships at any time for any reason. So yes we have to fly about but they are always readily available.

Delaying transfer means they are now not readily available and instead are completely unavailable until they arrive where we called them. This is fine if we don't leave. It's a problem if we trade or go do missions instead, to fill in the time and then we have to drive back to the original destination to uplift.

Which sort of defeats the purpose if ships just end up being transferred to where we were, not potentially are. Because unless we just sit at the station and wait, or log out, is pretty much exactly what is probably going to happen.

Because this QoL improvement is more likely to be valuable over longer ranges where the time saving is greatest. This equally means it's more likely the delays will be greater, than not.

I can do a lot in half an hour; many can. May not be anywhere where near the original destination by then. This ends up being a game of leap-frog.

And it's just one example, just one, where timers perhaps don't quite work the way people might expect.

OK... Understood...

So you're talking about a possible annoyance (if I can term it as such) with the delayed transport mechanics, in that your ship could be in transit and you want it, or want it delivered elsewhere.

However, I would suggest if we could ask for a ship in transit to be requested to be taken elsewhere (eg: to your new current location) I don't see how that's now not resolving the matter.

eg:
- I'm at system X and request my Viper is delivered to me from 250LY away. It's going to take 40 minutes...
- I get on with some stuff, and now 30 minutes later I'm at system Y and realise I need the Viper there. It's closer to where the Viper originated from, and the ETA there will be 7 minutes as it's nearer to Y than X.
- For some bizarre reason I immediately move to system Z. My Viper now arrives at Y (the game tells me), and I ask for it to be sent to me at Z. 2 mins later it's with me.


ps: During none of my calculations of ship ETA getting to stations have I ever considered distance of station from star... Hmmm... Should it be?

 

[Weps]

I think people are expecting more of this mechanic than frontier would be willing to put in. No offence. Is your example even on the roadmap as a feature in any way shape or form?

Dude, chill, it was just a joke in regards to the mission destination change feature and the 0H 0M bug some people were experiencing.

 

[jmp470]

Instant transfers is the only way it should work. All else is ridiculous and just adds waisted time to a game full of time delays.

 

[kofeyh]

Actually, we expected less. We expected just a tool that allows us to relocate our parked ships, without having to resort to throwaway taxi ships and ferrying them by hand all day long. Nothing more, nothing less.

They did that. It is less. It's press a button. That's all it is. The mechanic is just a tool to relocate ships without having to resort to throwaway taxi ships and ferrying them by hand all day long.

It just turns out that simple mechanic is actually simplest when it's instant. So instead of it being a simple quality of life change. I have read everything from delays, to autopilot, to commanders driving ships on behalf, to representations in gal map as to where my ship is in real time to emergent content where my ship is ganked half way there and blown up.

They gave us simple. People hate it. Go figure.

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

Dude, chill, it was just a joke in regards to the mission destination change feature and the 0H 0M bug some people were experiencing.

I actually thought it was a darn fine joke based on sad reality. I did appreciate it.

 

[jmp470]

You're right of course. Instant ship transport would basically like a magic pocket that somehow carries all your ships, instantly available at any station.

And how is that different than the magical engineering we have now?

 

[Angus]

Frontier, just pull the darn mechanic.

Timers suck. They are not a stand in for proper handling of ship transfer. There is nothing positive about a forced timer where assets are now stuck in limbo until they end.

Hmmmm.... the thing is, if you got to an airport to wait for an aircraft, you stand there looking at a timer. So why does a timer represent a problem?

 

[Weps]

And how is that different than the magical engineering we have now?

I'd venture a guess that a lot of the people who oppose the instant ship transfer are not that fond of magical engineers either.

 

[Angus]

People are so paranoid about this, that anything, no matter how desperate and game breaking, suddenly looks good. Panicking mobs generally don't make wise decisions. Humans either.

So you would be the wise man with vision, pointing in vain to the answer, and the paranoid and panicking mobs, that would be everybody who disagrees with you........ okay.

It seems to me, that your tactic in the face of overwhelming opposition has become to generate non-arguments presumably in an attempt to divide and water-down that majority's viewpoint.

I don't think it will work, but without any compelling argument I suppose your options are limited.

 

[charognard]

all i see is, 25% want instant, 75% don't. Now FD, make a good system ready to be test in the 2.2 beta. Pro instant, thx for your participation, you can move on now.

 

[kofeyh]

Hmmmm.... the thing is, if you got to an airport to wait for an aircraft, you stand there looking at a timer. So why does a timer represent a problem?

That's not my aircraft, it's the airlines.

What do you think people who own the aircraft they fly do? They schedule, check the weather, submit a flight plan, go through customs if it's international and then leave.

If anything, it's send to that would align most. Because people don't ask for an airline air aircraft to come to them. They go to it.

If I was a passenger of a ship, not the pilot, you might have a point. I might be waiting. But the plane won't wait for me. It goes where it is going regardless.

 

[jmp470]

Hmmmm.... the thing is, if you got to an airport to wait for an aircraft, you stand there looking at a timer. So why does a timer represent a problem?

This is: Why would I go to the Airport to play a game???? That makes absolutely no sense to me. When I want to go fly, I go to my plane, do a pre-flight inspection, then go...

Are you now suggesting that we should load the game, do a 20 minute pre-flight inspection, file a flight plan (if not VFR), Talk to clearance, talk to ground, taxi, talk to tower, depart area, then transfer over to FSS????

If you are.... I say, don't play a computer game, go get your pilots license and fly a real plane!!!!

I'm not attacking you, just pointing out that Elite Dangerous is a video game.

 

[kofeyh]

So you would be the wise man with vision.

Please don't. I said the developer should be able to do better than static timers. Instant is easiest. I never said it's the best or what I want. I'm not a wise man. I just believe adding arbitrary timers to somehow solve the situation, doesn't solve it.

I'd prefer frontier review options. I'm open to alternatives. I just don't see how yet another timer in a game that has a few of them, is somehow improving the situation. I don't even like instant. I just hate it less than interruptive timers.

Don't really see how attacking someone improves the outcomes, either.

 

[Vorxian]

But if you're the passenger the point isn't valid. If you're a passenger:

Flights will depart if you're there or not. Akin to catching a train. You're either there to get on it or you're not.

If my Cutter is automatically flying around the bubble, and I have to schedule to be at a specific place at a specific time to get to it... I'd probably light a giant reefer and cry.

Basically it's the same mechanics that bring your ship to you when you call it, that instant fuel is transported into your tanks, or immediate assembly of a huge lazer or something.. You'd hate to lose a ship whilst waiting for 500 ants, to assemble the parts and fit your components.. you need it there and then, and thus the game circumvents chronology to help you out.