2.2's Instant Ship and Module Transport - Yay or Nay?

[Khelder]

Because ultimately, we're not using the microwave to experience a fully immersive microwave experience - we're using a microwave because it's simply a tool to deliver tasty pop corn.

Eventually, one stops really thinking deeply about the microwave. It's a tool for a task. Namely creating tasty popcorn. The actual goal and aim is to, preferably, enjoy the outcome, no? There is no 'journey' and no vast experience, because we are simply observing. The best part is when the microwave goes *ding* and there is what we actually want. The pop corn. Mmmm. Tasty.

And after a while; we won't sit there and cheer as the timer elapses, and the corn pops. We'll ignore the microwave and go get a cup of coffee, or queue up that netflix episode. So it no longer matters how exciting the microwave is - we just don't care.

Ship transfer is much the same. We're simply waiting for the pop corn. You can delay this, but that doesn't really enhance the outcome; because the goal is to eat tasty popcorn, not be enthralled by a timer, count down with it, cheer when the microwave chimes and so on.

This translates to people leaving the game, or sitting at the menu idle; this means any number of commanders are no-longer playing elite; they're just waiting for the popcorn. I think that's the message Frontier is trying to get across. Sometimes, it's more about the pop corn, than the microwave.

Exactly. We don't need to pay attention to the microwave. We know it takes time. It's not all day. Just a short period. We understand that and we go get a cup of coffee or queue up that Netflix episode.

Not everyone is going to stare at the microwave. People aren't going to stop eating popcorn because it's not instant. People aren't going to stop watching Netflix because they can't have instant popcorn. If people knew nothing other than the fact that microwave popcorn took a few minutes to cook, they would likely just be grateful that they were able to do such a thing in their own home.

Then you see an ad on the television for "instant" popcorn. You just buy it in a packet at your supermarket. Just grab it out of the cupboard and eat. Instant.

There will be some who will rejoice and say that all they wanted was some kind of snack they can stuff into their mouth while watching Netflix.

Others, however, will point out that what you're eating pales in comparison to freshly popped popcorn. While you may be able to get food to your mouth quicker, you are missing the overall experience of freshly popped popcorn. Some want to hold their overall Netflix watching experience to a higher standard.

 

[Robert Maynard]

Have you ever watched a microwave pop corn? It's performing an action. There is a timer. Is this immersive and engaging? How can you make microwaving popcorn, engaging? I mean it makes some noise, there is some steam. This is perhaps exciting and enthralling for perhaps one or two iterations. How about by iteration ten?

At some point, the realisation must occur that it's just a microwave, it's just exciting molecules and the act of doing this, isn't the actual goal. I don't really have to understand how a magnatron works, to pop corn; the lack of knowing doesn't prevent the action occurring, it will pop the corn regardless. Knowing how the 'magic' happens, doesn't really create a more fulfilling experience.

Because ultimately, we're not using the microwave to experience a fully immersive microwave experience - we're using a microwave because it's simply a tool to deliver tasty pop corn.

Eventually, one stops really thinking deeply about the microwave. It's a tool for a task. Namely creating tasty popcorn. The actual goal and aim is to, preferably, enjoy the outcome, no? There is no 'journey' and no vast experience, because we are simply observing. The best part is when the microwave goes *ding* and there is what we actually want. The pop corn. Mmmm. Tasty.

And after a while; we won't sit there and cheer as the timer elapses, and the corn pops. We'll ignore the microwave and go get a cup of coffee, or queue up that netflix episode. So it no longer matters how exciting the microwave is - we just don't care.

Ship transfer is much the same. We're simply waiting for the pop corn. You can delay this, but that doesn't really enhance the outcome; because the goal is to eat tasty popcorn, not be enthralled by a timer, count down with it, cheer when the microwave chimes and so on.

This translates to people leaving the game, or sitting at the menu idle; this means any number of commanders are no-longer playing elite; they're just waiting for the popcorn. I think that's the message Frontier is trying to get across. Sometimes, it's more about the pop corn, than the microwave.

Not everyone feels the need to watch the microwave as the timer ticks down - many, I would expect, myself included, get on with something else that they want to do while the microwave is doing its thing.

In this analogy, the person who put the corn on to pop could be eating / drinking something else while the popcorn is popping.

Given that there are players in game who, presumably, already move their ships manually (as that is currently the only way to do it), the argument that if ship transfer is not instant then players will leave the game seems a wee bit over-dramatic - any time / effort reduction in moving ships will be an improvement over what we already have - which suggests that the transfer need not be instant to be better than what we have now.

 

[Robert Maynard]

Instant trasfer doesn't give you anything more that is already in game.

If there is no check that the ship being transferred could actually reach the destination (i.e. jump range may be too small to make a necessary jump in the route) then instant transfer would give something that is not in game - the ability to summon a ship to a location that it could not reach if the player piloted it there themself.

 

[Patrick_68000]

If there is no check that the ship being transferred could actually reach the destination (i.e. jump range may be too small to make a necessary jump in the route) then instant transfer would give something that is not in game - the ability to summon a ship to a location that it could not reach if the player piloted it there themself.

And this is here the problem which activates the anger at many commanders

 

[NeilF]

You guys are going around and around in circles and you'll never stop.

The devs have spoken. The feature is in. It will be tested and adjusted during beta. It is (assuming from comments) not a limitless / effortless / costless feature.

No matter how many people you argue with or bring around to your point of view or even collude with to come up with some lore / immersion satisfying middle ground, it will not change a thing.

I've hit a number of points I'd not thought of before while discussing the matter on this thread.

It can do no harm to discuss it, and may well raise some issues/considerations that have merit.

Just stop.

If the threat is concerning you. Unsubscribe?

 

[Weps]

All this talk about popcorn...

But yeah, bagged popcorn is bad. Even the microwave kind is not satisfactory. I go the trouble to get my own corn seed and pop it on the fire rather than in the microwave. I know the oil/butter will be fresh.

I guess that makes me the kind of player who would like not only for ship transfer to take time, but also options to micromanage the NPC pilot doing it. "Don't take that route, that goes through an Anarchy sector! If I find so much as a cig butt in my cockpit, I swear...."

 

[Agony_Aunt]

Sometimes i'm a bit slow at catching on to things. This morning it struck me. I'm wanting to upgrade the Engines on my T9 with Palin (rank 5). That means taking it some distance.

I'm so glad ship transfer is coming! Instant or not, don't care. Just so i won't have to do silly things like make all those jumps in a T9 to get that mod. And then return!

Of course, i'm also impatient, so i'll probably actually go ahead and take my T9 to Palin before 2.2

Still, i'll go get the rank 5 FSD upgrade first, at least that should make it a bit less painful.

 

[kofeyh]

In this analogy, the person who put the corn on to pop could be eating / drinking something else while the popcorn is popping.

I think you missed that this will most be occurring outside of the game, not in. Because much like anything else; the first time is fun, the twentieth time it's repetitive wasteful action. Eventually, like using the microwave, you won't care. You aren't going to do things in game. You'll just do something else.

When the best we can do is encourage people to not actually play the game, but instead merely endlessly wait for it, it might suggest there's a problem. If you can't see that, no problem. I respect your views and position, I am afraid however, I cannot agree.

 

[Robert Maynard]

I think you missed that this will most be occurring outside of the game, not in. Because much like anything else; the first time is fun, the twentieth time it's repetitive wasteful action. Eventually, like using the microwave, you won't care. You aren't going to do things in game. You'll just do something else.

When the best we can do is encourage people to not actually play the game, but instead merely endlessly wait for it, it might suggest there's a problem. If you can't see that, no problem. I respect your views and position, I am afraid however, I cannot agree.

Again, any time / effort reduction compared to manually transferring the ship will be a QoL improvement - to suggest that non-instant transfer will discourage players from playing the game also suggests that they don't play the game already if they want to change to another ship (as it takes time and effort to travel to the stored location and then on to the destination).

 

[charognard]

Well, just using a microwave is stupid, sry guys, you d better throw it by the window (check if anybody under your windows first) and stop using something really bad for your body... A pan, little oil, and you'll have a good popcorn, not some industrial ^^. It's the same in ED, good manual things and gameplay is all we need !

Playing since Beta, sometimes 10h a day, and i have never loocking a film, or netflix during my play time, i have all time something to do... I think i'm a very strange guy...

 

[kofeyh]

All this talk about popcorn... https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/02/84/f6/0284f639a10b9f6d1f8254c583812e69.jpg

But yeah, bagged popcorn is bad. Even the microwave kind is not satisfactory. I go the trouble to get my own corn seed and pop it on the fire rather than in the microwave. I know the oil/butter will be fresh.

I guess that makes me the kind of player who would like not only for ship transfer to take time, but also options to micromanage the NPC pilot doing it. "Don't take that route, that goes through an Anarchy sector! If I find so much as a cig butt in my cockpit, I swear...."

I prefer pan fried popcorn as well, in lightly salted butter; however at the end of the day, no matter how it's prepared, the end goal is still the popcorn. How it's prepared, is down to personal preference. The developer is only ever going to go so far, for that preference.

 

[kofeyh]

Again, any time / effort reduction compared to manually transferring the ship will be a QoL improvement - to suggest that non-instant transfer will discourage players from playing the game also suggests that they don't play the game already if they want to change to another ship (as it takes time and effort to travel to the stored location and then on to the destination).

At any time I can go to a location, and fly an owned ship. If the ship is in transit, because I want to use that ship, I'm not going to "make myself busy to fill in the time" like a good little soldier. I will log out and do something else. Or not bother with any ship management until the end of the session. Or at all.

This is almost certainly going to become the defacto, because I am not going to endlessly "fill in time" because the best we can do is artificially delay commanders.

So that's what I'll be doing. Not playing the game, because it forces me to not play the game. And before you say "well just don't use travel" I should remind you this is like saying "don't use shields" or "drive without a seat belt", which is just as illogical.

I bought ED to experience the game, not wait for the game's experience.

 

[V'larr]

People are discussing micro jumps, related to the recent GalNet meta drive article.

Oooh? I'd be interested in that...some part of me will regret the time I've spent supercruising and the fact it will break most of the novelty of the Hutton Run - but I mean, there's places in Elite where you can jump between stars that are closer together than the ones in Alpha Centauri anyway, so might as well go ahead, says I.

That assumes you have a ship there to do the thing you want to do.

Not really, just don't limit the things you want to do in the game and you'll be fine!

Barrier, balance, justification, however the devs wish to sort it out. Discussing cost at this point is largely irrelevant, there will be some cost, the devs say it will be based on ship cost and transfer distance. Cost and instant transfer are simple to adjust, as the Michael and Sandro have mentioned. I imagine most of the cost issue will be sorted out on the beta. If 5-15 minutes is such a small time, why have it at all? Sandro makes this point as well.

All true, but it remains a very real concern to me that the cost not be prohibitively high and that cost is NOT used as the means of "balancing" the feature.

As for "why have it at all"? Because ship travel in every other regard within Elite dangerous takes time, and magically handwaving it away now and reducing ship ownership to having a "magic bag of holding" inventory is ludicrous.

Instant transfer is instant gratification, plain and simple. And that's not a good thing in the context of travel, not without well-reasoned limits - e.g. star gates that only exist in the most populated systems within the human bubble - heck, they could make a CG to start building them, and build one for Jaques, too!

But, the timer sounds like a lot less work and effort to me and it really won't have an adverse affect on the usefulness of the feature. I promise!

But travel in and of itself isn't gameplay.

Oh, how I disagree! You can see so many wonderful things when travelling, if you look - and there's much to be said for the experience of successfully planning and getting from point A to point B, especially with unfamiliar roads!

There is my ship. Time has elapsed. I don't have to wait. I can go do the things.

This is the exact same way things would be with a timer. You wouldn't have to wait. You'd have to plan ahead. You could do whatever things you liked in the meantime.

Multiplayer is opt-in anyway. And you can opt-out anytime during combat by logging out to avoid all consequences. The integrity of fairness went our the airlock a long time ago.

Um, no, that's wrong. If multiplayer were strictly PvP combat, then yes. But that's not even close to being all that "multiplayer" encompasses. Just the fact we all share the same background universe that is affected by each and every player makes it multiplayer, even in "solo". You just can't see the other players in that mode.

I don't know if you saw but they confirmed that the ship transfer thing wouldn't be mandatory or compulsory.
So if you enjoy flying all your ships back and forth or whatever, you can still keep doing that.
Hope this helped clear it up.

As in the other thread - you show me where they'll put the switch to turn the feature off so I don't see it ingame, so it doesn't affect the BGS through other player's actions, so it doesn't affect PvP, and so on.

Til then, it is indeed as mandatory as any other piece of the patch notes, as I don't get to play an older version of Elite Dangeorus if I want.

I may be off base here but I sincerely, very sincerely doubt that David Braben or anyone from the team making ED is going to come to your house and bust in the door and kick over your furniture and scream and shout and put a pistol to the side of your head and tell you to use the ship transfer thing.

Now you're just being utterly ridiculous.

Sometimes i'm a bit slow at catching on to things. This morning it struck me. I'm wanting to upgrade the Engines on my T9 with Palin (rank 5). That means taking it some distance.
I'm so glad ship transfer is coming! Instant or not, don't care. Just so i won't have to do silly things like make all those jumps in a T9 to get that mod. And then return!
Of course, i'm also impatient, so i'll probably actually go ahead and take my T9 to Palin before 2.2
Still, i'll go get the rank 5 FSD upgrade first, at least that should make it a bit less painful.

Well, I put it to you, as a seemingly unbiased voice here - would it kill you if you changed ships, ordered your Type 9 to be transferred to Farseer/Palin/whatever, jumped there in a higher jumprange ship, and then went on with your day?

Or even if you're already at the Engineer but in another ship, would a couple minutes - during which you are free to do anything you like - just ruin your day?

 

[Robert Maynard]

At any time I can go to a location, and fly an owned ship. If the ship is in transit, because I want to use that ship, I'm not going to "make myself busy to fill in the time" like a good little soldier. I will log out and do something else. Or not bother with any ship management until the end of the session. Or at all.

This is almost certainly going to become the defacto, because I am not going to endlessly "fill in time" because the best we can do is artificially delay commanders.

So that's what I'll be doing. Not playing the game, because it forces me to not play the game. And before you say "well just don't use travel" I should remind you this is like saying "don't use shields" or "drive without a seat belt", which is just as illogical.

I bought ED to experience the game, not wait for the game's experience.

Of course it is up to the player whether they stop playing while ships are in transit - we are free to come and go from the game at any time after all.

To suggest that there is nothing else to do while the ship is in transit, however, is hyperbole.

 

[kofeyh]

Well, just using a microwave is stupid, sry guys, you d better throw it by the window (check if anybody under your windows first) and stop using something really bad for your body... A pan, little oil, and you'll have a good popcorn, not some industrial ^^. It's the same in ED, good manual things and gameplay is all we need !

Playing since Beta, sometimes 10h a day, and i have never loocking a film, or netflix during my play time, i have all time something to do... I think i'm a very strange guy...

I am glad you have 10 hours a day to fully immerse. I will instead spend much more of the time I have available, now waiting for things to happen, instead of achieving them. Thank you. This is indeed, a big quality of life improvement.

Don't agree. Will see what beta brings.

 

[charognard]

I am glad you have 10 hours a day to full immerse. I have perhaps 1-2 a day; perhaps upwards of 5-8 hours during a weekend. I will spend much of that now waiting for things to happen, instead. Thank you. This is indeed, a big quality of life improvement.

Don t misunderstand me, if sometime i play 10h, it s 10h where i'm not sleeping ! As many of us i have a job, Child and whife, but if you need Netflix in order to kill some time on ÉD, i think you are doing something bad....

 

[kofeyh]

Of course it is up to the player whether they stop playing while ships are in transit.

Quite. I'm sure this is something Frontier has also considered. I am afraid I can't agree and will respectfully cease from engaging in this topic. It's not a healthy debate and instead it's just attempting to force an encumbrance to solve a mechanic flaw. I can't ever agree with that. Sorry.

Fly safe. o7

 

[Robert Maynard]

Quite. I'm sure this is something Frontier has also considered. I am afraid I can't agree and will respectfully cease from engaging in this topic. It's not a healthy debate and instead it's just attempting to force an encumbrance to solve a mechanic flaw. I can't ever agree with that. Sorry.

Fly safe. o7

Fly safe, Commander. o7

 

[NeilF]

At any time I can go to a location, and fly an owned ship. If the ship is in transit, because I want to use that ship, I'm not going to "make myself busy to fill in the time" like a good little soldier. I will log out and do something else. Or not bother with any ship management until the end of the session. Or at all.

This is almost certainly going to become the defacto, because I am not going to endlessly "fill in time" because the best we can do is artificially delay commanders.

So that's what I'll be doing. Not playing the game, because it forces me to not play the game. And before you say "well just don't use travel" I should remind you this is like saying "don't use shields" or "drive without a seat belt", which is just as illogical.

I bought ED to experience the game, not wait for the game's experience.

So I want to go to Xythius, and will need my Python there. I consider my two choices...
1) I can fly there in my Python, taking 20mins. When I arrive I will have my Python so can use it.
2) I can fly there in my Anaconda taking 10mins. When I arrive I can order my Python. It will take about 18mins (for example)...

So I consider these two options, and do (1)...


Instant transfer will of course mean I'll most likely do any journey of any size in my Anaconda/Asp for ever more, and then teleport my real ship of choice over. This just feels wrong to me, and feels like some roughage is being taken out of the game.

But I can fully understand in reality FD may be right, and when actually playing instant transportation is what's needed to make the gameplay smoother. Guess we'll see...

 

[Agony_Aunt]

Well, I put it to you, as a seemingly unbiased voice here - would it kill you if you changed ships, ordered your Type 9 to be transferred to Farseer/Palin/whatever, jumped there in a higher jumprange ship, and then went on with your day?

Or even if you're already at the Engineer but in another ship, would a couple minutes - during which you are free to do anything you like - just ruin your day?

Me, unbaised?

But nope, won't kill me, and actually, i'm looking forward to it.

As I recall though, its not the ability that is the problem for most people, its mainly just a lot of arguing about whether instant transport is a problem or not.

For me, i'm kind of meh. If its instant, ok, i can live with it, i can separate gameplay from game lore in my head. If it takes time and more lore friendly, i can live with it, and go run some missions or something until my summoned ship arrives.

In general I feel this thread is largely much ado about nothing, since majority seem to agree that ship transfer in general is a good thing.