What Are Your Anti-Griefing Ideas?

[c00ky1970]

This thread has a long ongoing discussion on Crime and Punishment and includes anti griefing

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/226764-Yes-PVP-is-unfair

It has has comments from FDev in it and some suggestions that could keep all parties happy but give clear boundaries to where good and bad things can happen.

Apart from weapon passes in 2.2 beta I didn't see mention if any of the discussed points being deployed for 2.2

Mayhap with a lot of lobbying from players this might see something for 2.3 Beta?

 

[Sunsol]

So I've been playing GTA V ... and that game has a passive mode. In Passive Mode, other players cannot kill you ... targeting a player in passive mode disables your gun so you cannot fire on them.

So I gave some thought as to how this could work in Elite Dangerous. I wondered how you could enter passive mode and then thought, what if your ship has no weapons? If you have no weapons, you are playing as a non-combatant. This would mean that you could still be interdicted, but anyone trying to open fire on you, would find their weapons simply won't fire. Ramming would cause no damage to either ship.

The most obvious consequence from this would be with piracy ... well, I say "piracy", what I really mean is "interdicting you to demand extortionate amount of cargo and then kill you anyway" types of play that occur too much in open mode. Yes it would negate piracy, but the piracy mechanic is being abused at the moment anyway. If however, the passive player's ship is unable use an FSD, there is still a way for pirates to demand cargo. The player cannot simply run away. Being unable to jump would be down to being mass-locked by the ships around you (let's say the ships computer can't calculate a FSD jump with all the ships nearby).

The passive mode would protect new players who don't have ships fitted for combat. It would protect players who want to trade, while still allowing piracy. It would allow some games that don't involve weapons.

Having given this some thought, I really believe that if such a passive mode existed, where any ship without any weapons cannot be fired upon, then there would be justification to only have open mode and remove private and solo modes.

I'm sure I've missed out something in this idea, so what do you all think about it?

EDIT: Just realised I missed something ... This only applies to players ... NPCs can still attack you (but not hired NPC fighters) and you can still attack NPC unarmed traders

GTA was a terrible comparison. Passive mode is exploited by greifers all the time.

Just making security response faster in the inner bubble would work and making murdering players a serious offense outside of anarchy systems and combat zones.

 

[Crimson Kaim]

Won't happen. Let's make Elite not easier than it already is.

/thread

 

[deleteduser]

anti-grief activities -

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...ur-only-hope?p=4639264&viewfull=1#post4639264

 

[alierum]

Griefing is subjective.

For me, implement some sort of crime and punishement system so that killing folk has some sort of repercussion.

As it stands you can sit there blowing up unarmed players for months on end and nothing happens. You'd have though the Pilot's Federation at least would be interested. Don't they represent traders in some form, what with the official trade ratings they dish out?

In my opinion, it should be impossible to be interdicted and/or killed in a high security system. Either because police keep clean the system of wanted ships or react instantaneously against interdictions. Of course, in medium and low sec, incomes should be higher to encourage traders to go there, and bounty hunters too.

o7

 

[babelfisch]

- massively buff security in low-high sec systems, making it impossible for a base of operations for criminals
- Anarchies will be the new griefing arena
- Add incentives for non PvP players to visit Anarchies by massively increasing mission payouts and trading profits

Should fix all problems.

 

[Spiridon]

Griefers will grief, no two ways about it. There are no anti-griefing solutions. You have some very simple choices right now:

If you play Open, face the music.

Or join some of the Groups, or play Solo. It's exactly the same game as in Open, minus the griefers.

Or wait for/if ever they introduce much needed Open PvE.

 

[Ian Doncaster]

You've all given great replies ... so if my idea isn't an answer to griefing, what would you all suggest?

Frontier are pretty clear that interdicting, and/or shooting and/or killing a (locally)-Clean ship, is not only not against "the rules" but is in many circumstances at least somewhat encouraged:
- bounty KWSed from another jurisdiction
- piracy (especially if you're not very good at carefully disabling drives)
- PowerPlay
- assassination missions (players don't yet end up as targets for this, but they were talking right at the start about two players being able to take roles in the same mission, and don't seem to have given up on doing that someday)
- combat zones
- BGS effects
- Anarchy systems
- that guy who flies right in front of you in a RES while you're shooting a pirate
- first-strike against potential aggressors while running escort
- etc. etc.
That being the case, really harsh penalties for getting a murder bounty (enough people with itchy RES trigger fingers complain about the existing trivial one) are unlikely to be imposed. Financial penalties are unlikely to do much good, given how fast the latest earner of the month gets people credits if they wish to use it.

Next, ship build has a massive effect on combat strength - a pure combat ship gains as a minimum probably 3 internals and 1 utility on a pirate, 5 internals on an explorer, 3 or more on a trader, and 4 plus weapons on most miners. The attacker, of course, often has the ability to pick targets to avoid fair fights, if they wish. No plausible amount of NPCs can take on a pure combat ship once engineered.

Finally, determination of the aggressor is in many cases not straightforward - the existing mechanisms are certainly exploitable, but on the other hand, in the real world, thousands of hours of lawyers time are spent determining fault in case of collisions ... no-one should expect some automated rules to make a correct instant decision every time.


My preferred long-term "solution" would be to significantly increase the danger - and likelihood of death - from NPCs, by making their attacks more frequent and skilled, and by reducing the maximum toughness of any one ship. At the same time, reduce the consequences of death for non-combat players through means such as cargo insurance, some means of exploration "checkpointing", etc. so that deaths more than once every few months can be a normal part of the game rather than something which risks wiping out all progress. Once the NPCs - as in the previous games in the series - are killing everyone, then a player occasionally doing the same is hardly a problem. Everyone can then go around in Open/Group/Solo as their current desire for sociability and high-res screenshots suits.

... but for a lot of players it's not "being killed by a player" that's the problem, it's "being killed", so that's not going to help.
... and it'd require such a massive rewrite of so many game mechanics I think it can't be reached from here anyway.
... so in practice, I think the "solution" is "stay away from obvious hotspots in Open if you don't want the risk"

 

[X-Terminator]

OPEN PvP = damages only where if your Ship is disabled then NPC Recovery send you back to last dock 1hour later OR your Distress Beacon can attract Player Rescue to either Tow/Stowe your Ship back to nearest dock OR Steal it to Sell OR Repair to keep!

 

[Riverside]

I don't want anything to be impossible, but I don't want there to be anything that has no (or only one) counter.

I generally play in Open, often unarmed. My kind of PvP interaction generally revolves around out-thinking the hypothetical ganker, and in order to that to be a challenge there must be the opportunity for the ganker to out-think (or out-manoeuvre) me.

For the most part my solutions revolve around the popularity of a system (the traffic reports are the ones I pay most attention to), and provided I pay attention, I can travel relatively freely throughout the galaxy and regularly do.

Travelling without weapons is not, for me, an indication that I do not want to be shot at (although of course my plan very much revolves around not getting shot), it is to make it as plain as possible to the 99% of players that do not gank, that I am not a threat to them. Similarly I never habitually carry an FSDI on any ship. If I need one for a specific task I fit one, and remove it again after the task is complete.

I am friendly, I am not an immediate threat, there is no need for you to combat log or emergency drop If I o7 you.

Gankers are my content. Crime & punishment specific to PvP, sure but don't make it impossible. I respect the lateral thinking of anyone able to think their way to a solution, and will work on a counter solution, even if that means simply not going to wherever they are.

 

[jasonbarron]

Gankers are my content. Crime & punishment specific to PvP, sure but don't make it impossible. I respect the lateral thinking of anyone able to think their way to a solution, and will work on a counter solution, even if that means simply not going to wherever they are.

What a refreshing attitude! I love it. Have some rep, my friend

 

[Lordfrith]

the best solution is find a player group that fights pirates and team up and kick their asses!

failing that i've found going somewhere else tends to work

FDev are looking at the crime and punishment system: station defences will get boosted, new hatch breaker limpets will mean theres actually a reason not to KOS.

i'd like to see a reaction in the BGS to a good murderous rampage though. Kill enough unwanted players and you will start to become infamous, barred from hi sec systems, cheered into pirate ones, on the run from the law.

 

[BigBANGtheory [VR]]

I think players in Open should be free to play how they like as long as they aren't cheating or exploiting things to the detriment of others. I do strongly believe there should be a consequence to ones actions though so if a player decides to go on a murder spree fine but expect some response from the game.

If anything I'd be in favour of killers getting something in return like rare materials or some criminal rep that buys them favour in anarchy systems. Just so long as there is a consequence in the lawful systems such as being harassed by security forces or their position being given away to bounty hunters.

 

[White Shark]

Passive mode I don't think is a good idea for Elite. Solo mode exists for that reason. If you want to see other player ships, then you should be able to interact with them and vice versa.

What should exist is a bounty system that is player affected. E.g. I'm flying a system, minding my own business. No wanted level. No illegal cargo. Completely clean player. I get attacked by a griefer, or say even a pirate. The second one of their bullets strikes my shield or hull, that instantly unlocks an option for me to set a bounty on their heads. This would work in a way that I can set a bounty from 1000cr - 1,000,000cr. Once I set this, the credits instantly leave my account, and are set on the enemy Cmdr, until he is destroyed by another enemy Cmdr, or destroyed by an NPC. If, of course and enemy Cmdr get's to him first, he claims the bounty.

For player ships, the higher the bounty, the more attractive the target is. For NPCs, the more interdictions occur etc.

This would help to some degree I think make Cmdrs think twice about randomly attacking clean players.

 

[Marak]

My anti griefing measure is to make lots and lots of money.

And say Meh.. when I rebuy.

I've done it twice so far and it's working

 

[Spacecat]

That sounds incredibly boring.

 

[White Shark]

In addtion, there should be some sort of Law Enforcement faction in the game you can join and accept missions for. Bounty Hunting is one thing, but exists seperately. A Law Enforcement faction would be heavily anti-pirate, and in particular for player trolls, anti-griefer. Clean players who are attacked and unlock the option to set a bounty, also unlock an option to report the Cmdr to the Law Enforcement faction using an in-game mechanic. The griefer's name would appear on a bulletin board at Starports, and those who have joined the Law Enforcement faction can be given updates as to what system the Cmdr is currently in (if in Open play). Maybe even lock it, so that "wanted" griefers can only play in Open play, and Solo play is locked for them until they face justice.

 

[Lordfrith]

Once I set this, the credits instantly leave my account, and are set on the enemy Cmdr, until he is destroyed by another enemy Cmdr, or destroyed by an NPC. If, of course and enemy Cmdr get's to him first, he claims the bounty.

i really like this idea but... player leaves pirate wing, kills exwing man splits profit. the more outrageous you are the higher the bounty the higher the profit. next thing you know until FD implement player money transfer there will be a blockade at all CG's etc etc

 

[Spiridon]

In addtion, there should be some sort of Law Enforcement faction in the game you can join and accept missions for. Bounty Hunting is one thing, but exists seperately. A Law Enforcement faction would be heavily anti-pirate, and in particular for player trolls, anti-griefer. Clean players who are attacked and unlock the option to set a bounty, also unlock an option to report the Cmdr to the Law Enforcement faction using an in-game mechanic. The griefer's name would appear on a bulletin board at Starports, and those who have joined the Law Enforcement faction can be given updates as to what system the Cmdr is currently in (if in Open play). Maybe even lock it, so that "wanted" griefers can only play in Open play, and Solo play is locked for them until they face justice.

Just the opposite. You kill a clean commander, you get a week in Solo.

 

[White Shark]

i really like this idea but... player leaves pirate wing, kills exwing man splits profit. the more outrageous you are the higher the bounty the higher the profit. next thing you know until FD implement player money transfer there will be a blockade at all CG's etc etc

True true. You'll always get people abusing in-game mechanics. Therefore the Law Enforcement faction reporting would probably work better as it wouldn't have a monetary focused function in it.

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Just the opposite. You kill a clean commander, you get a week in Solo.

Yep, even simpler! Time-out step!