Exploration Scans

Err, SCB's, yes - the B grade have more uses vs. the A so are often used in preference. And for the vehicle hangers then there is also an argument for using H as the reduced power draw can allow you to run a smaller power plant in some builds which can more than offset the increased mass of the H vs. G hanger. And that is without considering the massive cost jump from B to A for most modules ...

There's a massive cost jump from the Basic to Intermediate to Advanced Scanners though...

It just risks it becoming overly complicated.

I'd support it if they renamed them from Basic, Intermediate & Advanced to some other sensible naming convention for their capabilities.
 
It should work like 2.1, with new features just building on what's in 2.1, in other words:

* Honking a system shows all the planets in range (in other words, for the ADS, all of them) including the existing 2.1 thumbnails, so you can basically distinguish rocky/water/ELW/gas giants etc etc.
* Surface scanning does the same as it does in 2.1 but additionally reveals a detailed surface map.

Additions for surface scanning:

* A scanner that allows you to do a materials map (or any other map) by flying around the planet with the scanner active. If you ever had the Kethane mod for KSP think of how you made a satellite to scan for resources.

So for instance, if you're looking for one of the rarer materials, instead of aimlessly driving the SRV for hours, you can make it a directed search. You do an orbital scan which reveals where concentration of minerals are in the planet's detailed map. Think of something like the geological maps of your local area here on Earth. Then if, for example, you're looking for Arsenic, you can land in an Arsenic rich area that you found using the orbital scan, and you have a high chance of finding arsenic fairly quickly with your SRV.
 
I can see the appealing of each side. But the truth is, a DSS already is a time sink, and applying one of these methods, it can increase the time sink alot more.
Maybe DSS can be reworked on? Even if it's just a small buff to it. Like shortening the time to scan and increase it's scanning range. (hell make these scanners an Utility tool instead of a whole module!)

Immersion is good and all but lets not put it infront of fun, because if people are having fun, then they are immersed. And IMO forcing the player to spend even more time towards this mechanic will greatly reduce their fun and shatter their immersion right next.

- My two cents!
 
I would suggest keeping the system as it is but add more functionality to the detailed discovery sensor. The detailed sensor could reveal the general location of POIs. Not the specific location, though, to keep it interesting. Maybe the scan could give us an area in which we can search for things. The POIs could be anything and could be build upon in the future. For starters, the detailed scan could reveal:

  • Regions of tectonic activity
  • Geysers, volcanos
  • Settlements
  • Current POIs
  • Anomalies
  • Material deposits (this would improve the mining and material collection gameplay, e.g. for engineers)
  • Everytime you guys add something to planet surfaces, you could include it as a signal for the detailed scan.

Hope this helps! Best of luck guys and keep up the good work :)

But I may ask...what is interesting into not know the exact location of a POI? In my opinion what is interesting in a POI is the things we can find inside of it, its location is irrelevant. Give me the location of all POI's and I'll visit every single one of them to find out what I can see in them.

Hidden stuff is not so cool if you have in mind the magnitude of the game we are playing here. Is not just a mere sandbox (I play open worlds and always find all the stuff and secrets for the sake of it...I love to explore in open worlds and complete them at 100%)...but imagine doing that with 400 billions star systems with all its planets the size of real life actual planets. Impossible in this life.

I'm alright with secrets being secrets (like all this thing about the mystery around Thargoids...or not Thargoids), those should be hard to find after all, but the technology in the year 3302 should be advanced enough to actually help the player to find certain things in the game.

Actual gameplay moments occurs inside of our ship most of the time, or in the SRV (the SRV is one of the things that works right, its scanner has a purpose and it guides you quite nicely into finding something while keeping its "mystery") but inside of the ship most of the time I like to fly low and find things by myself (yup...with my eyes) since you either have to fly high to find those "blue marks" and then go down again, land your ship and use the SRV. How cool it will be to have a sensor quite similar to the one in the SRV but in the ship so you can also find those bloody POI's.
Okay perhaps it will make the SRV useless...but still if I want to take a closer look and interact with things, I will still need to land my ship and use my SRV. And to find materials the SRV is and still will be needed. (same will happen the day we'll have space legs...are they going to be useless because of the SRV? No, because probably we will be entering into ship-wrecks or installations where the SRV can't go...)


PS: Went little bit out of topic...but hopefully you got my point. Whatever helps the player to not waste time in a massive open world such as this, should be very welcome by all. If I wanted fully realistic space simulation, I'll probably be playing Rogue System as of now.
 
Obviously, honking planets systems with the discovery scanner should reveal the surface map straight away.

- Will it negatively affect gameplay for anyone? No.
- Will it improve QOL for the maximum number of players? Yes.
- Will it break immersion for any but the most pedantic of players? Of course not.
 
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My preference, likely a repeat, ...balance old way and new features

...However the 3D surface map was originally touted as a general QoL improvement in the 2.2 reveal livestream(s) - there was no mention of it'd be hidden behind a surface scanner time-wall, because effectively that's all it is. It's pointless because all you need to do it fly close to the planet in order to see its surface - a few seconds longer than the scanning distance.

It's just pointless. It would be less pointless if the surface scan distance was lengthened by an order of magnitude. Alternatively, just make it available after a Space Honk.

There has to be a *reason* to get a surface scanner, or else why bother with the extra slot? (For that matter I'm also a fan of offering an Exploration Scanner that combined Advanced + Surface into a single slot, but that might be too greedy.)

Balancing prior gameplay with head-canon, plus allowing for some future enhancements for fun, I get:


  • Honk with stellar scanner finds bodies and identifies as unknown within range, as before, with basic to advanced giving different ranges for initial identification. Having a DSS doesn't alter the honk behavior at all.
  • Without a DSS, the scan on selection and approach to proper range identifies body type (star type, planet/moon type) and any planetary sites likely to be beaconed such as installations. System view shows a representative image for the body type (icy, metallic) - heck your cockpit HUD already knows if you've selected a stellar, 'rocky' or 'gas' type body with different hologram icons - but surface map just shows the grid with the installation locations. After all this can occur from light-seconds away, while you can 'see' part of the planetary face you sure as heck haven't orbited it enough to generate a whole image. You also don't get the list of available surface mats without DSS. Yes, this means the new "QoL" improvement isn't available to those without DSS (YET, read on).
  • Full map detail on surface can occur at this stage (selection scan at range) WITH a detailed surface scanner, as can available mats. That's one of the rewards for having a DSS...it's some sort of long range 3D imaging neutrino detection thingamabobby that sees right thru planets.
  • Without a DSS going all the way into orbital flight of a populated planet or landing at any planetary outpost assumes downloading a map as part of traffic control handshaking, similar to scanning a solar-orbit beacon gives you access to bodies in system. Drop a message in our HUDs at the 'info' window to tell us 'surface map received' or something likethat. Surface view in system map thereafter shows it all even without a DSS and the QoL improvement is there for pilots regardless, but on inhabited planet only. Still no available mats listing though.
  • With or without a DSS, purchasing the system info gives you all bodies and full surface maps as alternative to having to land on or even orbit bodies as well. You're buying an ephemeris after all. It should even have the mats data for everything.
  • Enhancement probably beyond the scope of 2.2: I would like DSS users to have another opportunity to perform an intentional scan of some sort at much closer than usual select-and-scan range, maybe forcing you to fly at least a couple different orbital planes, to identify and locate additional persistent POI's on the planetary surface that show on your the detailed surface map, both for systems in and outside the bubble. Maybe you don't know "what" they are just that it's a 'unidenfied surface anomaly' until visited. This is over and above what we get now with vague blue circles you can only 'see' at the right magical altitude range. You can do the dynamic 'refining position' search to us on actual approach like in some of the missions sometimes (doesn't make sense for city-scale ruins, might for finding the actual largest intact chunk of a crash site though). And there is no alternative to get these into your personal database without a DSS, as incentive to having one. I don't want extra compensation for these on sale of exploration info necessarily, I want the opportunity to visit them and bookmark. For gameplay reasons with mysteries like the alien ship crash site I'm ok with some persistent features 'resisting' this scan capability so they aren't accidentally discovered too easily (cloaking or camoflage field, whatever).

TL;DR = if getting paid for a scan lvl 3 only occurs with a DSS...I see no reason a detailed surface map view wouldn't have similar limitations, but I offer some alternatives for the QoL improvement to have wide appeal regardless.
 
Obviously, honking planets with the discovery scanner should reveal the surface map straight away.

- Will it negatively affect gameplay for anyone? No.
- Will it improve QOL for the maximum number of players? Yes.
- Will it break immersion for any but the most pedantic of players? Of course not.

Honking planets or honking systems?

I'd prefer you have to scan planets, but I wouldn't mind if you get it on honking a system, just as long as we can use the DSS in this fashion:
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I think there are solutions where we can all get our scanner types with different scanner models. There is no need to try to "win" here. We can all win if we work together to find a good suite of options that works for everyone.

Having different options is a bad solution unless the rewards of exploration are different for each type of scanner, or the player will be penalized for not using the adv scanner.
 
I have played with exploration both in 2.1 and 2.2 beta with the sole intention of finding surface features such as geysers, fumaroles and other interesting things (alien ruins anyone?). The functionality of the ADS up until beta 7's black blobs, which I understand was a bug, was a wonderful addition to exploration. I see the "you must go to DSS range to get detailed surface map" as a purely "this is the number of planets/moons I have scanned, I have scanned the most therefore I am the winner" mechanism. It is purely point scoring, I see no value in it at all. I could add "it isn't proper exploration until you go down to the planet surface and spend three days finding geysers" argument but that's snide and uncalled for even in response to others using that same argument against the 2.2 scanners mechanism.

The end result is this, there are different types of exploration.

1) Jump into system, honk, DSS main star, jump to next system. That's a valid form of exploration and for them zoomable detail maps make no difference, they aren't going to use it.

2) Jump in, honk, DSS main star, use system map to identify likely ELW and WW, fly to them, use DSS, jump to next system. That's a valid form of exploration as well. For them the system map as used in 2.1 is fine, they aren't looking for anything else.

3) Jump in, honk, DSS main star, SC to each and every planet and moon to use DSS, but I am not going to close because the gravity well makes it to long to fly out again, jump to next system. That's a valid type of exploration and again the 2.1 functionality is fine, even the black blobs are fine because they are going to fly to each and every one regardless.

4) Jump in, honk, DSS main star, examine detailed surface map of each landable body for surface features, canyons, discoloured areas, features that may indicate geysers or interesting topographical anomalies, SC to the most likely candidate. Take away the detailed surface map and all you have are coloured balls with no guidance whatsever.

The fourth group are the ones who will be affected by rolling back the functionality, they may spend hours or days scouring a moon for geysers, but if they jump into a system with 30 or 40 landable bodies there may only be three or four good candidates for surface exploration. The hours spent flying to each and every body is basically wasted time, it's not useful, it's not productive, it's simply not fun, it's not necessary, and it's not immersive, that isn't, and never will be a good argument.

A game is about good game play, immersion is almost never about good game play.
 
So i guess one of the things we're asking for in this thread is: what kind of more fundametnal changes to exploration and sanning would folk be interested in seeing?

Since I don't explore for credits in the game I was pretty excited when the new system map was shown; as people have already said it was really cool that you get to see a preview and decide if you actually want to go visit that place or not.

As you know, currently the "explorer profession" (as in the activity that makes you moneys) is pretty mindless and boils down to "honking and pointing at planets for random amounts of time"; I did it for a while then decided I could not any longer. In light of how it currently works, I don't see how that was being affected by the new feature; people could always just look at the simple 2D and listen to the audio cues and pick'n'choose the most lucrative targets to point their ship at and wait. The delay in acquiring the 3D representation however affects people who explore like I do: just looking for cool sights and geologically interesting landable planets. So if anything it works against actual exploration.

To make the "profession" interesting then IMO some things need to be addressed:

- What are my planetary scanners actually detecting? Is it radiation? Is it gravity wells? Is any of these together with the distance involved and the speed I am moving at affecting the speed/efficiency with which they work? Depending on these, their interactivity could be expanded and potential exploration mini-games can arise.

- My surface scanner detects elements (which is a good addition); shouldn't it be able to detect areas of element concentration and potential places of interest? And since people are bringing up the 3D representation being overkill for a "simple scan": how is the surface scanner scanning the whole planet and not just the area it's pointed at? What if one surface scanner minigame involved getting your ship in a sort of high speed orbital cruise mode; your ability to do so efficiently and quickly (and perhaps the quality/state of your equipment) would dictate the speed and detail of your surface scan data.

- Actually visiting the planet's surface should yield more (or increase the precision of the already collected) data about it.

- What is happening with the data and how relevant/useful is it? At the time and age of Elite there are people traversing the whole galaxy in matters of days and there is no actual way for them in-game to share their findings; in fact I have found that selling my exploration data to a station does not make it available to other players trying to buy it from the same station. So what exactly is it good for? Maybe specific types of data would be more valuable to specific types of systems, organizations or stations. Scientific-oriented organizations would care more about peculiar/rare/non-directly-profitable things than corporate organizations. Put some strategy in to offloading data to the correct recipient by having it categorized instead of just returning from a trip to a station and pressing "sell this page" over and over.

- Further, in terms of the pecuniary: how is an untouched minable planet chock full of rare elements at 50Lys from the nearest colonized system worth the same as one 30000Ly away when knowledge of its existence for a mining outfit would mean it just needs to hop next door and start mining vs organize a long and arduous expedition to the other side of the galaxy? This should be a factor that plays a role in the previous step of data categorization and getting it to the correct hands.
 
I'd rather the Disco Scanners keep their normal functionality instead of having unrecognizable black blobs for a couple of reasons: first off, removing a functionality just because is rarely a good gameplay decision and secondly because when I'm out in the black I'd like to see if there are any interesting planets just after the honk so that I can either find something valuable without bothering with other planets or find planets with interesting features (namely rings) that I can fly into to take nice pictures.

I would suggest keeping the system as it is but add more functionality to the detailed discovery sensor. The detailed sensor could reveal the general location of POIs. Not the specific location, though, to keep it interesting. Maybe the scan could give us an area in which we can search for things. The POIs could be anything and could be build upon in the future. For starters, the detailed scan could reveal:

  • Regions of tectonic activity
  • Geysers, volcanos
  • Settlements
  • Current POIs
  • Anomalies
  • Material deposits (this would improve the mining and material collection gameplay, e.g. for engineers)
  • Everytime you guys add something to planet surfaces, you could include it as a signal for the detailed scan.

Hope this helps! Best of luck guys and keep up the good work :)
This is a good idea for expanding the Detailed Surface Scanner so that it provides an added benefit to the functions it already has, tying in nicely with the old and new Horizons mechanics.
 
Sorry but just to clarify, is the exploration mechanic going to be;-

1. Class 1 scan (The Honk) : this will review the system map to the range of the scanner and every planet in range, you'll see a thumbnail of planet (not a black sphere) but drilling down on the planet will show the gird view.
2. Class 2 scan : By flying close to the planet, the discovery scanner will show basic details of the world and the grid view will be replaced by the 2.2 visual representation of the body’s surface.
3. Class 3 scan : By flying close to the planet with the additional surface scanner module will give you all of the class 2 details, the mineral breakdown and more money when you trade it in?

not had enough coffee this morning.

Well to me that look bang on.
 
Personally I think a system scan with only the discovery scanner should only reveal the wire frame planets. A scan of a planet at close range (no surface scanner) should reveal the detailed surface.

A system scan performed with the discovery scanner and the surface scanner should reveal the detailed surface up to the range of the discovery scanner.
 
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Plagiarizing several ideas:
- Basic Discovery Scanner - honk provides the legacy full color representation of bodies within range (which is increased to 5000 ls). Fits a utility slot.
- Intermediate Discovery Scanner - honk provides the legacy full color representation of bodies within range (which is increased to 50,000 ls). Fits a size 1 internal compartment. Aiming at a body within the 50,000 ls range and performing a scan provides a 3D map of the surface.
- Advanced Discovery Scanner - honk provides location and a 3D map of the surface of all bodies within the system (infinite range). Fits a size 4 internal compartment. So this means it will require a ship at least the size of a Cobra Mark III to fit this scanner.
- Detailed Surface Scanner - scan provides location of settlements and defenses, mineral content, etc. Range increased to 10 ls. Fits a size 1 internal compartment. Also provides a 3D map of the planet if not already available (required for Basic Scanners, 3D mapping only needed for Intermediate if an aimed scan wasn't performed).

Missions to scan a system or systems to bring back information on mineral content. Espionage missions to bring back location of settlements and their defenses.
 
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Hi Sandro,

I have an account I use exclusively for exploration. I just passed 4,400 systems visited and 6 weeks of total game time played. I like exploration and feel I can speak authoritatively on the subject.

Last night (2.1 Horizons) I passed through 39 systems at a total of 987 LY traveled. That's a typical distance for each sitting. Took me about an hour and a half to scan the heavy metals, water worlds and the sole ELP I found along the way.

Of the 39 systems, 9 had multiple suns with the secondary star a minimum of 4-500k ls from the sun. When I arrived in those systems and used the adv. disco scanner, I could see, at a glance, that the distant bodies were all ice balls and could skip them. If you are telling me that in the future I have to travel 15-20 minutes extra in each system to get to the secondary star, then scan every single planet and gas giant moon just to see if it is worthy of scanning, I'll flipping lose it. That is a tremendous step backwards, effectively tripling the amount of time needed to explore over today. How is that an improvement?

To the players who don't want to see surface planet detail; don't zoom in on the planet or moon. Sorted. Those of us that want to, can. I like the new surface detail anims.

Keep the scanners the way they've always been. The beta graphic issues on the system map were a glitch, fix it and move on. The slim minority who want a challenge can take a basic disco scanner and go nuts exploring unknown systems in 500 ls circles. See how long the thrill of that lasts when they are 27,000 LY out.

I go exploring to get away from all of the issues caused by recent tweaks to combat, engineers and AI that have been introduced. Turn exploration into an unnecessary and punishing time sink and I'll be spending a lot more time on other games.
 
I'd change the mechanic in two ways:

First part:

Basic scanner:​

Initial scan causes 500ls to show as 2.1 rendering. Past 500ls is black bodies that are untargetable. This would give an indication of the content but not reveal past the scanners abilities.​

Advanced scanner:​

Initial scan shows 5000ls as 2.2 rendering and past that 2.1 render of remaining bodies.​

2nd mechanic:

Introduce a timer that start after initial scan with the effects:​

Basic scanner:​

After 1 minute of initial scan of objects within 500ls the render changes from 2.1 to 2.2 full render​

Advanced scanner:​

After 1 minute of initial scan of objects within 5000ls the render changes from 2.1 to 2.2 full render​

Conclusion:

This could open up development of new scanners with more range. Possibly could have the timer continue running and do the expansion of the detail the longer in the system vs distance from object.​
 
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