A Guide to Minor Factions and the Background Sim

The problem is he can't, he doesn't know how it happens nor can he confirm it actually did happen in the third case.

my concept for something like that ("bug-feature hyperexpansion") happening is again about the sequence things get picked up by the bgs algorythm.

we do know, that the BGS algorythm gets two times or more to the same system around the same "tick" (which is in fact a "tick-wave").

in above case, this would mean, the BGS algorythm would visit a system two times, and calculate an expansion two times. haven >90% influence would add to that.

but there is no way of controlling the sequence the algorythm visits a system we know of. i'm not even sure whether it visits systems everyday in the same sequence.
 
my concept for something like that ("bug-feature hyperexpansion") happening is again about the sequence things get picked up by the bgs algorythm.

we do know, that the BGS algorythm gets two times or more to the same system around the same "tick" (which is in fact a "tick-wave").

in above case, this would mean, the BGS algorythm would visit a system two times, and calculate an expansion two times. haven >90% influence would add to that.

but there is no way of controlling the sequence the algorythm visits a system we know of. i'm not even sure whether it visits systems everyday in the same sequence.

With regards to the wave, I concur as I seem to have caught it half way through my systems as they are more in a line than a sphere area wise on the map. A few times I have seen some updated and others not. Wait 10 minutes and the rest were done. And the further from the middle, the later they were done. So it appeared.
 
Last edited:
It doesn't need 90% to happen. The theory was disproven already.

there is a difference between "add to that" and "necessity".

what does the BGS algorythm do?

from my observations during a tick, it roughly

1) collects actions and calculates states (buckets), sets them pending/active

2) it moves on, and does the same for the next systems

3) it comes back and calculates influence, and states from influence - sets them pending/active

... so, that is why @irongut was able to get an expansion active and break it with a conflict the same tick.

algorythm drops by, sets expansion active, algorythm goes on, comes back, calculates influence, sets war active, breaks expansion -> faction expands.

for a double expansion this would look like:

- algorythm drops by, sets active expansion to recovering, faction expands

- algorythm goes on to other systems

- algorythm comes back to system, calculates influence and states from it, sets expansion active again.

? - algorythm breaks expansion because expansion was active? or because of a conflict?

i would look for a structure along those lines, if it isn't a bug.

maybe my observation from succession of updates by the bgs algorythm isn't correct.

but it is necessary, that the BGS algorythm comes to each system more than once - a) to collect actions and calculate states b) to calculate influence effects of states, and to calculate states from new influence values.
 
from my observations during a tick, it roughly

1) collects actions and calculates states (buckets), sets them pending/active

2) it moves on, and does the same for the next systems

3) it comes back and calculates influence, and states from influence - sets them pending/active

I saw the system calculate influence several times on several occasions during the tick observation. Which most likely has to do with the action gathering from ALL servers. The data doesn't seem centralized before the calculation.

1) It cleans old states that ran their course, activates guaranteed states (like war etc.). Happens roughly 15 Minutes before 4 pm server time and general tick.
2) It starts to gather action data from all servers and continiously adds them to the influence calculation. Not for all systems at once, so it can take time for all to be changed in influence completely. It also revises the calculation for each gathering of server data. (I saw % change up to 2-3 times in a system during a tick so currently I always wait 1 hour to check the endresult.)
3) Once calculated, it checks for new conflicts and % locks. Sets up new pending states accordingly to buckets and is done.

We use the speed expansions as well. Many factions do by design or accident. This might be because it prioritize setting up expansions/retreat states before war. It certainly is not because it does it several times. As I said I saw factions flip to war after pending even before % were calculated. It happens before the calculation. So it seems independant of a double-check.

Also our system was not held up or pushed up, so it was in the 60% range during expansion. There is NO CHANCE of misinterpreting the % to expand twice. That was the theory before, but as it happens without 90% - and didn't in tests with 90% - it is clearly false.
 
I saw the system calculate influence several times on several occasions during the tick observation. Which most likely has to do with the action gathering from ALL servers. The data doesn't seem centralized before the calculation.

that's an interesting idea.

i still think, the algorythm needs to come back to a system at least two times - because the active states has an effect on influence values of actions retrospective (for exampel: a boom going active doubles trade actions of the last 24 hours).

it surely does not a) collect all info, b) calculate all effects c) calculate influence.

"lso our system was not held up or pushed up, so it was in the 60% range during expansion. There is NO CHANCE of misinterpreting the % to expand twice. That was the theory before, but as it happens without 90% - and didn't in tests with 90% - it is clearly false." - i think you are misunderstanding what is happening through succession of that algorythm. it is not about misinterpretation, but about an active state being active and being "cleared" twice. the strange thing of expansion is, that if gets cleared, "it happens".

the question is, how does it get cleared twice? is it active twice times of the tick (e.g. is active - gets cleared - gets active again - is cleared), or does the clearing the first time not happen for some reason?
 
i think you are misunderstanding what is happening through succession of that algorythm. it is not about misinterpretation, but about an active state being active and being "cleared" twice. the strange thing of expansion is, that if gets cleared, "it happens".

No I don't. I concur with the point of "When it is cleared, it happens." But you used the 90% statement before as well. So I wanted to take it out again to avoid confusion. The Hyperexpansion (Or Double Expansion) is independant of % at the time it happens.
 
No I don't. I concur with the point of "When it is cleared, it happens." But you used the 90% statement before as well. So I wanted to take it out again to avoid confusion. The Hyperexpansion (Or Double Expansion) is independant of % at the time it happens.

okay, so, what does it depend on?

- one the two expansions happening has its maximum duration?

- one of the two expansions is cut short by a conflict?

- an expansion is cut short by two conflicts?

? --- combined with succesion of servers? systems/distance from center? or ?
 
I can only speak for our Hyperexpansion for ALL circumstances, but there is one constant with the other 100% guaranteed instance. It might be unrelated, but both times one of the expansion targets was a Horizon System (only planet stations).

In our case it was also cut short by a conflict.
 
okay, so, what does it depend on?

- one the two expansions happening has its maximum duration?

- one of the two expansions is cut short by a conflict?

- an expansion is cut short by two conflicts?

? --- combined with succesion of servers? systems/distance from center? or ?

You can answer don't know to all those, or won't currently divulge the latest theory.
 
You can answer don't know to all those, or won't currently divulge the latest theory.

You can add:

Stop being a ... to that statement. I talk with Goemon, not you. I also told SaliVader the important details per PM. The reason I do so might be because of their personal conduct compared to yours.
 
Last edited:
After gathering so much information from this thread I am happy to be able to contribute to it, too.
I was trying to get all stations in the system for the faction (A) I support. The last station to gain control over was in the hands of the faction (B) with the least influence. Instead of going for CW, I tried to push them into retreat to see who is going to be the station's new owner after B was forced to leave the system.
B was pending retreat after going below 2.5 % influence for 2 ticks. Since I did not check all of B's systems, I regard this as an upper limit. The state itself lastet for 4 ticks and B was gone after the 5th tick. Station ownership was taken by A which was the strongest and the system controlling faction at that time.
So owning a station does not hinder retreat. However, since this was only one occurence, it is still unclear whether it is the controlling, the most influencial or a random faction the station goes over to.
 
Last edited:
You can add:

Stop being a ... to that statement. I talk with Goemon, not you. I also told SaliVader the important details per PM. The reason I do so might be because of their personal conduct compared to yours.


Well actually you talk to all as your expressing your opinions in an open forum for all to read and respond to. That's the nature of forums. If you don't want to receive opinions which may be contrary to yours, I'd suggest you post in total in PM.
Secondly, you were conversing with me on the subject firstly, and in failing to say 'no more thank you jimbeau' I assume it is still open for me to converse on the subject.

And in the fact you actually stated that it happened when you didn't expect it too actually confirms what I said in that you can answer 'don't know' to all of goemon's questions. Otherwise you would know how to repeat it. Do you?

Skeptic ... that's my conduct. Skeptic. Nothing more. And it's a common theme, not just for you.
 
So owning a station does not hinder retreat. However, since this was only one occurence, it is still unclear whether it is the controlling, the most influencial or a random faction the station goes over to.

I personally still have to try it, but others in Discord had the same observation, so it seems solid. It also always seems to be the controlling faction of the system that gets it.
Of course this maneuver is impossible against home factions.

Secondly, you were conversing with me on the subject firstly, and in failing to say 'no more thank you jimbeau' I assume it is still open for me to converse on the subject.

Then how about you DO. That answer of yours was useless. Also that something occurs "unexpected" does not equal "without information". Of course you can compare instances. How about you follow the idea of a knowledge generating dialogue instead of a permanent "But" scepticism. Nothing useful is gained from permanently demanding answers.
JOIN the theory instead. One can hardly describe your attitude as a socratic dialogue.
 
Last edited:
It's this that finds the holes in theories. And when there is no more holes, it goes from theory to Law.

....
....
....

Until someone finds another But.

In other words it criticizes the other party until the day they a) give up or b) somehow prevail against all flak. Which makes it destructive criticism.
Scientific dialogue would work with a theory and try to disprove it. Not question the content until it runs dry. That is not how it works. That is also not a good conduct. And it also does not put you into the position of a contributor, but into the position of a judge of the old elites.
I personally do not condone such behaviour, it is unhealthy.
 
In other words it criticizes the other party until the day they a) give up or b) somehow prevail against all flak. Which makes it destructive criticism.
Scientific dialogue would work with a theory and try to disprove it. Not question the content until it runs dry. That is not how it works. That is also not a good conduct. And it also does not put you into the position of a contributor, but into the position of a judge of the old elites.
I personally do not condone such behaviour, it is unhealthy.


In scientific terms, it's called Peer Review. You called it criticism. And as we don't know the theory, its hard to contribute to the research.

Let's look at it from an FD perspective, and go back to pre 2.1

We had a Expansion mechanism that was blocked by Boom, and that could only be cleared by generating a conflict.
The Expansion put you into systems where there was no more than 5 factions present. (This is the accepted and proven on this thread. Bug reports were raised by people where it didn't fit, and from those reports I read, it was bugged expansions or human error). This meant, some factions were quickly pushing beyond the 25Ly -30Ly distance from home, in angular fashion as opposed to a spherical form of influence. There was examples of failed expansions, lost expansions as once it got beyond 30Ly it was a) very difficult to find where or b) not understood what was happening. What ever was happening, it wasn't understood or at least nothing stood the test of time from what I read here.

But Expansion was becoming an issue for FD. It was happening far to fast. And becoming problematic for them, as they introduced more and more PMF's to the game. Toes were beginning to be trod on when inserting PMF's. And the list of PMF's was getting longer all the time. And that didn't include those who adopted in game MF's. So they had to do something to curtail it.
The first change - Expansion was now into systems with less than 7 factions. This meant more systems close in became available, and therefore spherical expansion became more likely if you expand from the same system. Angular directed expansion could be argued became a longer if not staying the same process.
The second change - Retreat was added. So if you don't keep on top of things, you could be ejected. What they added in was a inability to eject from your home system, and once a system contained three or more MF's, ejection would stop at 3.
The third change - Investment state added. So if you Expansion fails, youll enter Investment and go longer. I don't know of anyone hitting this state in the bubble yet.

So, you have to ask your self a question now. Why would FD introduce a feature that would increase the speed of Expansion following 2.1, having introduced mechanisms to curtail it some? They wouldn't obviously.
So that means it's not an intended 'feature'. And that means it's a bug. And they need to be reported. For the good of the game in the long run.

And so, you can go ahead and criticise the above, pick the holes in it, or maybe even Peer Review it. I'm open to all.

But be prepared for me to do the reverse to anything you respond with. Or don't bother.
 
That was a well conducted summary of history. Well done.

I mentioned it in ' ' form the get go and with the added note of a "Bug with Benefits", at least for all of us that conduct expansions with care, reason and much less greed. It saves US time.

It also either first started with the new spheric border system or was easier to be observed than ever before. Yet, it remains extremely rare, which marks it as a really special circumstance. That is why I got two theories left after the 90% theory was disproven. I will of course research it on later chances.
That being said, you added the report for FD, so now they can monitor the process and in the end decide if a rare 1% anomaly really threatens their stability plans for the BGS. I doubt it.
 
Last edited:
I can hereby confirm a third case of Hyperexpansion. This time it was our Otohime that decided 2 new systems are better than 1 and grabed HIP 11886 and Khemaraui.

This 'feature' ("Bug with Benefits") is as elusive as weird.

Kind of lost as to why you posted this now, seeing as you have 2 theories left but won't openly tell anyone what they are and how they work and give them the chance to test and help.

And yet you don't like someone doubting what you say.

I hereby terminate this conversation Gemai.
Good day to you.
 
Back
Top Bottom