Engineers stifles the game.

[jasonbarron]

SDC in general are the ones who know best how engineers work because of their laser focus on combat ships. What's been made clear is that the grind pays off in such a way that it's not just an edge it gives in combat, but rather an unscalable wall. The trouble with engineers is that it becomes the entry price for anyone willing to engage in pvp. It's too high a price, meaning that's either your sole in game focus or you can do other things. This further widens the chasm between playstyles to the point where they are incompatible. Once your ship is modded to the bare minimum required to face other players in pvp, pve content loses all challenge. Right now my Conda can wipe out any NPC wing (don't care what it's composition) without my giving it much attention. Literally I can watch Netflix in a Combat Zone and I'll be fine. Against a single modded fdl pvp player I break about even.

Coming up against SDC in the recent Farewell To Walter CG was the first time I've ever felt the true disparity between NPC's and a highly skilled and meticulously modded CMDR, especially the one's who've drilled in wing combat. No doubt about it, if you want to engage in PvP, or travel to popular CG's in Open, being modded up to the hilt is absolutely essential, and even then might not be enough to save your bacon.

With that said, having my teeth kicked in and losing a lot of my spare cash in rebuys to SDC pilot's has only stiffened my resolve to continue sharpening my own modules, as well as my own piloting skills. My own foray into the world of engineering has yielded amazing results, even if I haven't pursued the "meta." In just the few hours of play that I've had since last week I've literally rebuilt my ship from the ground up, and I highly recommend that everybody who likes playing in Open does this, even if their goal is simply to be more "survivable." One thing to keep in mind about the engineers, and I mean this especially for people who feel negatively towards them...they aren't going anywhere, and like it or not, there are CMDR's out their constantly honing their build.

 

[Cmdr Esteban]

SDC in general are the ones who know best how engineers work because of their laser focus on combat ships. What's been made clear is that the grind pays off in such a way that it's not just an edge it gives in combat, but rather an unscalable wall. The trouble with engineers is that it becomes the entry price for anyone willing to engage in pvp. It's too high a price, meaning that's either your sole in game focus or you can do other things. This further widens the chasm between playstyles to the point where they are incompatible. Once your ship is modded to the bare minimum required to face other players in pvp, pve content loses all challenge. Right now my Conda can wipe out any NPC wing (don't care what it's composition) without my giving it much attention. Literally I can watch Netflix in a Combat Zone and I'll be fine. Against a single modded fdl pvp player I break about even.

Only when PvP is the sole focus do other play-styles become incompatible. This isn't a PvP-focused game. You can do PvP, sure. But the size of the galaxy and the P2P instancing makes it pretty clear that PvP is, and always will be, a sideshow. Time for SDC to put their egos and cyber-machismo to one side and get on with playing the rest of the game.

 

[avow555]

If you are into grinding, who's fault is that? Don't like the game? Leave. I find it wonderful. So many ways to play.

Not even remotely into grinding.

 

[jasonbarron]

Not even remotely into grinding.

Then I have good news for you, OP: you don't have to to end up with some very nice mods

 

[Ozram]

And before Engineers you were struggling against the AI in your pvp ship? I doubt it. PvP and PvE have never been balanced in ED, a PvE ship had never any chance in a PvP encounter and a PvP ship was always massively OP in PvE. What 2.1 changed is this: the people already on top of the hill had to climb some more.

Difference between struggling with AI and taking on any wing the AI throws at you is pretty big. The difference is not as minor as you suggest. Also, that's not what's changed. It wasn't a raising of the ceiling so much as a huge wall at the entry point and a widening of the gap.

 

[Tataboj]

I dunno, I usually don't do things I consider awful.

 

[Conflictus]

What's bizzare is that jumbled mess you wrote right there. Empirically wrong on many levels. It was a real eye roller.

You are illogically conflating ideas. As a socialist, the problem is that massive amounts of public funds are being privatized into a small number of hands and those are the people who are wealthy. It's socialism for the capitalist cronies and slavery for the rest of us.

Last word is that all engineered weapons and such are gone, but it wasnt specified if they have a modded PD for example. Its all pretty academic, you can kill high-ranking NPC in big ships just fine with a small ship whether they have modules noone notices or not. As said, thermal/impulse doesnt mean mods, its just that people now start to notice these regular things exist. Engineers is important for PvP, for PvE its totally optional.

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None of that makes any sense. Pro tip: dont start labeling things as 'socialist' if you dont know what it means. It reduces the chance people think you are a Trump supporter.

What's bizzare is that jumbled mess you wrote right there. Empirically wrong on many levels. It was a real eye roller.

Last word is that all engineered weapons and such are gone, but it wasnt specified if they have a modded PD for example. Its all pretty academic, you can kill high-ranking NPC in big ships just fine with a small ship whether they have modules noone notices or not. As said, thermal/impulse doesnt mean mods, its just that people now start to notice these regular things exist. Engineers is important for PvP, for PvE its totally optional.

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None of that makes any sense. Pro tip: dont start labeling things as 'socialist' if you dont know what it means. It reduces the chance people think you are a Trump supporter.

Ugh I am guessing you guys are American am I right? So instead of individuals being responsible for there own fate if you will by "working" for a more powerful ship , you would like "state sponsored" if you will vanilla regulated ships flying around so no one has an edge or "more than you. So basically you want the "government" (fdev) to own the industries ie the ships so that they are regulated so no one can put extra effort in to be more powerful or have more credits than you... Pro tip, in life and in virtual reality you get what you earn, some have more than you because they put the extra effort like me, now you guys I would imagine live off assistance, parents and food stamps...

 

[Ozram]

Ugh I am guessing you guys are American am I right? So instead of individuals being responsible for there own fate if you will by "working" for a more powerful ship , you would like "state sponsored" if you will vanilla regulated ships flying around so no one has an edge or "more than you. So basically you want the "government" (fdev) to own the industries ie the ships so that they are regulated so no one can put extra effort in to be more powerful or have more credits than you... Pro tip, in life and in virtual reality you get what you earn, some have more than you because they put the extra effort like me, now you guys I would imagine live off assistance, parents and food stamps...

You are guessing incorrectly. Also, it's their, not there. Maybe look back at what you wrote instead of making assumptions about us as therein lies the problem.

 

[fu9ar]

Fate is necessarily not an individual's responsibility, by definition.

You need to go back to learning how words work before attempting to make more complicated arguments.

 

[jasonbarron]

Ugh I am guessing you guys are American am I right? So instead of individuals being responsible for there own fate if you will by "working" for a more powerful ship , you would like "state sponsored" if you will vanilla regulated ships flying around so no one has an edge or "more than you. So basically you want the "government" (fdev) to own the industries ie the ships so that they are regulated so no one can put extra effort in to be more powerful or have more credits than you... Pro tip, in life and in virtual reality you get what you earn, some have more than you because they put the extra effort like me, now you guys I would imagine live off assistance, parents and food stamps...

Wow Conflictus, digging a hole with a shovel wasn't going fast enough, so you ran off to grab your backhoe?

 

[Conflictus]

What's bizzare is that jumbled mess you wrote right there. Empirically wrong on many levels. It was a real eye roller.

You are illogically conflating ideas. As a socialist, the problem is that massive amounts of public funds are being privatized into a small number of hands and those are the people who are wealthy. It's socialism for the capitalist cronies and slavery for the rest of us.

Last word is that all engineered weapons and such are gone, but it wasnt specified if they have a modded PD for example. Its all pretty academic, you can kill high-ranking NPC in big ships just fine with a small ship whether they have modules noone notices or not. As said, thermal/impulse doesnt mean mods, its just that people now start to notice these regular things exist. Engineers is important for PvP, for PvE its totally optional.

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None of that makes any sense. Pro tip: dont start labeling things as 'socialist' if you dont know what it means. It reduces the chance people think you are a Trump supporter.

You are guessing incorrectly. Also, it's their, not there. Maybe look back at what you wrote instead of making assumptions about us as therein lies the problem.

Ah pointing out a grammar error, the last defender of the pathetic with no argument, sorry was typing this out on a phone waiting to do a job that will earn me more in the next few hours than you probably make in a year, your probably waiting around for someone to give you something... while complaining you have to wait for it, cause the guy paying for your free crap has to earn it first to give it to you, hope that's working out for you.

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What's bizzare is that jumbled mess you wrote right there. Empirically wrong on many levels. It was a real eye roller.

You are illogically conflating ideas. As a socialist, the problem is that massive amounts of public funds are being privatized into a small number of hands and those are the people who are wealthy. It's socialism for the capitalist cronies and slavery for the rest of us.

Last word is that all engineered weapons and such are gone, but it wasnt specified if they have a modded PD for example. Its all pretty academic, you can kill high-ranking NPC in big ships just fine with a small ship whether they have modules noone notices or not. As said, thermal/impulse doesnt mean mods, its just that people now start to notice these regular things exist. Engineers is important for PvP, for PvE its totally optional.

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None of that makes any sense. Pro tip: dont start labeling things as 'socialist' if you dont know what it means. It reduces the chance people think you are a Trump supporter.

You are guessing incorrectly. Also, it's their, not there. Maybe look back at what you wrote instead of making assumptions about us as therein lies the problem.

Wow Conflictus, digging a hole with a shovel wasn't going fast enough, so you ran off to grab your backhoe?

I can afford a backhoe so why not. Or is that "unfair" ...

 

[verminstar]

Ugh I am guessing you guys are American am I right? So instead of individuals being responsible for there own fate if you will by "working" for a more powerful ship , you would like "state sponsored" if you will vanilla regulated ships flying around so no one has an edge or "more than you. So basically you want the "government" (fdev) to own the industries ie the ships so that they are regulated so no one can put extra effort in to be more powerful or have more credits than you... Pro tip, in life and in virtual reality you get what you earn, some have more than you because they put the extra effort like me, now you guys I would imagine live off assistance, parents and food stamps...

This right here is why I spend ages browsing through the saltiest threads...comments like this one that makes ye laugh till it hurts at the sight of someone literally troll themselves...that cheered me right up thx but yer not getting rep fer it ^^

 

[bendover]

The thing that has really ruined the Game is PvP because now every egocentric little wannabe space fighter pilot will cry if there God like skills is not able to beat everything in the Universe This WHY we have balance so people can kid themselves that skill is the GOD of combat

You may not agree with my opinion it's as valid an opinion as any egocentric whinging opinion I have read of this forum

 

[Ozram]

Ah pointing out a grammar error, the last defender of the pathetic with no argument, sorry was typing this out on a phone waiting to do a job that will earn me more in the next few hours than you probably make in a year, your probably waiting around for someone to give you something... while complaining you have to wait for it, cause the guy paying for your free crap has to earn it first to give it to you, hope that's working out for you.

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I can afford a backhoe so why not. Or is that "unfair" ...

Trouble is you haven't made a single argument to defend your point of view. What is your point of view as far as the OP is concerned anyway? So far all you've written are off topic ad hominems. I pointed out your grammar as it seems a starting point to where your troubles lie. If you can't even form a proper sentence, what chance have you with a proper argument?
Stay on point. I've already stated my position as regards engineers. Are you able to counter it without ad hominems or weird notions of political leanings and/or current place in life? Not that it's relevant, but I'm fairly successful, 40 yrs old, own my own properties (yes, plural) and currently reside in Australia. Point in fact, none of that adds to or detracts from my arguments. Try again and maybe put a little effort into it this time

 

[avow555]

Then I have good news for you, OP: you don't have to to end up with some very nice mods

Of course I don't...

My point if you have a moment to pause is this.
I have been chasing around since Engineers dropped onto the sever, not in a fun way but totally unnatural to what has been a flowing experience for me so far.
The RNG elements in this game are totally inert and crass, everything has random drivel built in and it's so cheap and hollow.

 

[Don Alvarez]

Of course I don't...

My point if you have a moment to pause is this.
I have been chasing around since Engineers dropped onto the sever, not in a fun way but totally unnatural to what has been a flowing experience for me so far.
The RNG elements in this game are totally inert and crass, everything has random drivel built in and it's so cheap and hollow.

That is you ryour opinion and I wont dispute that. I've had some bad experience with engineers. I've also had some very good ones, but engineers really hasn't interrupted my gameplay much. I don't go out of my way to get engineers mat - except for the occasional planetary excursion. I collect them in the course of doing other things, and when I get enough for a few upgrades I trot off and see the engineers. As for the random drivel, thats one way to look at it. Another is that for some people it leaves room for them to continue to seek improvement. The majority of complaints I see about engineers seem to come from people who have dropped everything to pursue engineers as a new vocation, like mining That's all they do and they're usually not happy with the grind. I'm not, so I do it a bit different. I would tell you your opinions are wrong, but perhaps a change in perspective would help. Anything I get from engineers is a bonus. Even crappy rolls on Grade 3 Dirty drives, when I only have two chances, and I still leave Farseer better off than when I came in.

 

[Karl Marx]

I actually am rather fond of the grind for Engineers. We just REALLY need a way to store the commodities we use for engineers outside of our ships. Then it'd be really cool. Some minor improvements to the RNGness of engineers would be nice too but I can live without it if I have storage.

 

[Shar]

People who use the word Grind expose themselves as unsuitable for Elite Dangerous.

Elite dangerous is the best and possibly only game of its type on the market, inescapable fact. As far as I know not in dispute. Try to remember that when you write you're hate speeches because it will take a lot more than some random opinions to change that.

 

[IndigoWyrd]

People who use the word Grind expose themselves as unsuitable for Elite Dangerous.

Elite dangerous is the best and possibly only game of its type on the market, inescapable fact. As far as I know not in dispute. Try to remember that when you write you're hate speeches because it will take a lot more than some random opinions to change that.

"Best" and "Fact" in the same sentence becomes an Opinion.

One I do not entirely disagree with, but the fact remains this is an opinion.

Moving on to hate speeches though... nah, I'm not even opening that can of worms. Hail Victory.

 

[jasonbarron]

Of course I don't...

My point if you have a moment to pause is this.
I have been chasing around since Engineers dropped onto the sever, not in a fun way but totally unnatural to what has been a flowing experience for me so far.
The RNG elements in this game are totally inert and crass, everything has random drivel built in and it's so cheap and hollow.

I won't argue with your opinion, but I do disagree with you. It's my opinion that if you find it hard/cheap/shallow/drivel then you're doing something wrong. And if you're willing to let that stop you from modding up your ship, well, that's too bad for you I guess.

Might want to keep in mind that engineers are here to stay before throwing in the towel. And I'd be willing to bet that eventually SJA will be allowed to start incrementally adding mods back to the NPC's, along with gradually making them fiercer adversaries; think the frog in a pot of water scenario--throw the frog in pot of boiling water, frog jumps right out of the pot. Put the frog in a pot of room temperature water and put the heat on medium and the frog will sit there until eventually it boils. When 2.1 first dropped the NPC's were modded up and no one else had had a chance to get their own mods...pretty soon that won't be a viable excuse anymore

At any rate, it's your choice.