Any grind, is in your mind.

[foebits]

Grind is purely subjective term. What ED objectively have is lineup of activities, which have certain gameplay loops attached to them. You can mix them up, vary between them, but they are certain, and they repeat themselves - as any games have it.

Now what is SUBJECTIVE is your attitude towards it. I discussed this with my friend yesterday and we got into very heated argument. His argument is that there are group of players who can't help it, they threat games as competition, with anything really, and for them having goals in such games as ED is bound to make them see gameplay loops as grind - because they see them as BARRIER between them and goal. They don't see combat, trading, mining, doing missions, etc. as gameplay or content really. It is that something they have to do over and over again to reach their goal. This is how mostly players complaining about grind in games in general sees this.

My point was that it is their choice to engage in it after all. Way friend described it as it was almost evil for developers to make games like ED in nutshell. We dropped subject because we just don't like to argue like that, but overall I got impression that this is something more of emotional state and some reactions regarding Engineers, PP or anything that repeats itself really are better understood by me. I just don't see ED that way and I guess that's fine. It is not me who have to deal with this, it is them.

No, it is not a subjective term and you would do well to reacquaint yourself with the meaning of subjective VS objective.
Subjective: Based on ones opinion or how they feel about something
Objective: Based purely on fact, like existing or not existing, and not on how one thinks or feels about it.

Your view is subjective that you say there is no base grind and that they have a lineup of activities.
It is an objective FACT that the whole game is based on tediously long and arbitrarily boring grinds and that they do not, in fact, have a lineup of activities in the mission system. You have a mission board that spawns maybe 5 missions and they are always the same 3 or 4 with no deviation; and that's IF it spawns any at all.

This game is objectively a masterpiece when it comes to the galactic scale and objectively trash when it comes to basic functionality. The game is 2 years old now and instancing still does not function. That aside, the game can still be subjectively good to you if you enjoy exploration or any other activity and aren't bothered by all the short comings.

Me saying the game is bad because so many things are broken is objective.
Me saying the game is bad because I don't like HOW the mission system is set up is subjective.

Content is lacking in this game, subjectively, as I and many others feel that implementing RNG for literally everything is a lazy cop-out. If you enjoy doing the same mission over and over and over and over again, or trade route or whatever, then subjectively it does not lack content.

I hope we are now clear on subjectivity and objectivity. Have a good day.

 

[AutoMechancal]

http://www.taghats.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/Crazy-Hat.jpg

I will say that OP has a very good point about how Elite is more about the journey than the destination. That's a great way to explain the lasting appeal that it has for myself and many players. Yes, I agree with Cosmos' observations about grind, but despite that Elite is a game I keep coming back to again and again. It's the journey, the beauty, the mechanics that keep me engaged. It's a universe I want to spend time in. In that, at least, Elite succeeds spectacularly well.

Dammit meme photos can't stay mad.

The issue I have with the whole it's in your mind is that it's not. You can grind if you choose to it just depends on how quickly you want what your grinding for. It's not in your mind it's real but a choice that's my point. You can have access to a cutter in two weeks if you have the time and right missions if you want to do nothing else, but that's not something in your mind. The grind is real, but it's also a choice.

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

foebits, grinding itself is subjective term. It describes doing things you don't enjoy over and over. So it is subjective by it's own definition. As for anything else objective vs. subjective, it is fair post and I agree.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

How about, the grind is not in your mind, it's there, but it's optionally optional. In as: certain playing styles can chose to ignore it, others do depends at least partially on grind-like bits.

 

[AutoMechancal]

How about, the grind is not in your mind, it's there, but it's optionally optional. In as: certain playing styles can chose to ignore it, others do depends at least partially on grind-like bits.

This so much! One man's grind is another man's fun.

 

[Martian Successor]

The problem with ED grind imo can be expressed by a Final Fantasy analogy.

In the very earliest days of that uber-popular JRPG series, experience and cash were earned by performing the same monster-bashing tasks over and over and over again.

In the super-evolved, modern incarnation of Final Fantasy, the 'Bravely Default' handheld series, all 'grind' tasks can be speeded up (literally, they can be put on fast forward), and semi- or entirely automated. You can actually gain stuff while you sleep. You can set up your entire party to be a smoothly oiled xp gathering machine.

Now, here's the interesting part:- I have played every major off-line release in the Final Fantasy series and I have put a stack more time into Bravely Default, without ever getting bored, than the early releases. Probably about 300 hours to 40 hours.

How?

Because Bravely Default provides depth in the variety of its tactics, the need to acquire tools to fight innumerable bosses, themselves possessing tactics of great depth, you have a need not just to gain but to learn.

Basically Bravely Default trivialises the trivial and makes much of the interesting. You rarely if ever have to do something you don't want to do to get something you want - you do something you do want to do to get something you want.

Elite Dangerous is, on this analogy, still on the Super Nintendo. The trivial makes up almost all of the PvE content, repetitively and without any need to improve or reward for doing so.

I don't think this concern is 'in the mind' at all - it's a direct comparison. Elite needs to move forwards several decades before its core game mechanics of rank and property acquisition are more than, in effect, killing / transporting / dropping in on / driving past the same goblin over and over and over again.

However, prior to 2.1 I still found all of this to be ok. I could forgive the game its archaic quality, partly because I'm a 1984-er. I thought the eight months it took me to get from purchase to endgame was about right.

What I personally am still struggling to reconcile myself to is 2.1.

Can't rep you again. Stop making so much sense damn you!

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How about, the grind is not in your mind, it's there, but it's optionally optional. In as: certain playing styles can chose to ignore it, others do depends at least partially on grind-like bits.

There's just too much common sense going on in this thread. Somebody take a nerf-thrower to this place!

 

[foebits]

I am not here argue is ED sim or not. Gameplay design speaks usually for itself.

* Goods movement - simulated;
* Political factions - simulated;
* Outfitting avaibility - simulated;
* Missions - simulated via BGS;

Etc.

I can go on. But that's not the point. My point is that ED banking heavily on well defined, easy to understand yet requiring time to master features, gameplay loops. Many people say why gameplay loops aren't more detailed, and they argue that it is reason why ED is grindy. I disagree, because people already complain about such simple complexity as passenger transportation quirks. Essentially, people will find arguments why they find game grindy because they want to access that sweet content they desire, and rest of the game to be damned. My friend said that mistake is add any goals in such game in first place, as any such goal will be grind by players who don't know any better.

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But rank grind don't exists within context of the game - at all. It is term people describe as way to get access to major faction aligned ship. It is their game goal, good. But then don't complain it is hard to get because it is supposed to be available for people doing good deeds for major factions. For you it is barrier to get that shine. Ergo, grind.

You still haven't figured out what a grind is yet.

Grind= doing anything repeatedly whether you want to or not, because you have to in order to achieve a certain goal.

All goals in ED are a grind because they all require MASSIVE repetition of the same thing. And until you and others understand this most basic of facts, then the "the game has no grind" argument will always be a joke.

 

[Martian Successor]

Nobody can argue that all the carrots in this game are all on the end of very VERY long sticks, but whether you chase any one particular carrot is completely up to the individual. I'm going to have to concede the point to the OP and say that everyone who disagrees is wrong.

Now, having opined thusly, I'm wondering if my friend Shadragon has a spare set of flame retardant trousers that I can borrow

Burn the witch!

*Ahem*

I mean, what do you mean by "everyone who disagrees [with the OP] is wrong"?

 

[Banana's_Are_Good_For_You]

Would a variety of different ways to "grind" certain things be helpful to those who do such things?
Or would it still be the same thing?

 

[foebits]

foebits, grinding itself is subjective term. It describes doing things you don't enjoy over and over. So it is subjective by it's own definition. As for anything else objective vs. subjective, it is fair post and I agree.

Again, you need to recognize what a grind really is.
A grind is NOT something you need to do repeatedly and hate doing.
A grind IS having to do something repeatedly regardless of your own personal thoughts on it.
Therefore no, grind is NOT a subjective term at all, and this is what most people arguing there is no grind fail to acknowledge. As long as you understand the terminology you would know that grind is actually terminologically objective; It has nothing to do with whether or not you enjoy it.

Case in point:
I've gone back to playing eve for a while as I wait for the devs to fix basic game mechanics(if they ever will).
Yes, EVE is very grindy if you run missions, but you can still enjoy doing them. Enjoying it or not, it is still a grind.
If you go exploring wormholes EVE can be grindy or not grindy depending on how you go about it. If you go wherever catches your fancy then it is not a grind, If you do it because you want to find a certian type of site, then it is a grind.

If you enjoy the grind, fine, but at least understand and know the meaning of what you're arguing about.

 

[jasonbarron]

Burn the witch!

*Ahem*

I mean, what do you mean by "everyone who disagrees [with the OP] is wrong"?

I meant anybody who disagrees with me personally. BOOM! I bet you didn't see that coming! Hahahha!!!

Ahem, sorry everybody, I'm not really sure where that manic outburst came from....too much happy grinding psychosis?

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

You still haven't figured out what a grind is yet.

Grind= doing anything repeatedly whether you want to or not, because you have to in order to achieve a certain goal.

All goals in ED are a grind because they all require MASSIVE repetition of the same thing. And until you and others understand this most basic of facts, then the "the game has no grind" argument will always be a joke.

Talk about very different definitions of word 'grind'. I suggest you to look it up first. One of 'grind' definitions is laborious, uninteresting work. It defines subjectivity. You don't like it - ergo, you view it as a grind. It is your opinion.

I understand why people don't want to see this term to seen as subjective - then they feel like lacking arguments as they don't have some sort of general consensus at their side. Surprise - you don't need that. You come here, present why you feel it is grind for you, and people agree, some will disagree and you will move on.

You see it as a grind. I see it as relaxing moment-by-moment gameplay. It is our difference, and your opinion is as good as mine.

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Again, you need to recognize what a grind really is.
A grind is NOT something you need to do repeatedly and hate doing.
A grind IS having to do something repeatedly regardless of your own personal thoughts on it.

As far terminology sources I am looking up doesn't give 'grind' as a term objective description, sorry. There is no such definition, and when people use this word here, they clearly mean it in negative mean, ergo subjective.

 

[Martian Successor]

I meant anybody who disagrees with me personally. BOOM! I bet you didn't see that coming! Hahahha!!!

Ahem, sorry everybody, I'm not really sure where that manic outburst came from....too much happy grinding psychosis?

 

[Cageman]

A grind IS having to do something repeatedly regardless of your own personal thoughts on it.

Can you enlighten me what it is you HAVE to do in ED? If it is to reach a goal, what is that goal of yours?

Why not just enjoy the game and not grind it?

 

[babelfisch]

Can you enlighten me what it is you HAVE to do in ED? If it is to reach a goal, what is that goal of yours?

Why not just enjoy the game and not grind it?

Because the force is strong with this one?

 

[IndigoWyrd]

Mod hat on..

I know hyperbole is all the rage these days, but let's not be disrespectful. People can have different opinions and that's fine.

"As long as their different opinions are the same as mine." - Far too many people these days.

I should report this for being disrespectful for how insulting it is, but hey if you like flying around doing stuff very slowly maybe you should reset you save everytime you go past a sidewinder.

Your either unemployed or an idiot, with no respect for peoples time. Everything about this game is a grind. Yeah sure some of them are more fun then others, but that doesn't mean it's any less grindy. Hell because of engineers even pvp is a grind now, and its one of the worst kinds. A grind for power.

With this said I don't think that it's horrible to have the game be grindy it is trying to be an mmo-lite or like. So there's always going to be the fact that some things are going to need you to grind for them, and some of them are a lot of fun. However deluding yourself into thinking that their is no grind is disrespectful to players like myself who have played for a long time and are time poor because of employment or family commitments.

That's you're (contraction, you are), I won't even go near the name-calling, and I partially agree and partially disagree. If you happen to enjoy what you're doing, even if it is repetitive, it's not a grind.

 

[Bran Tse Mallory]

Well said Shadragon, as I've always said, the only grind is in your mind.

 

[Conch]

Everything becomes a grind if you put the bar to high. Set lower goals and eveything is fine.

 

[Truesilver]

Can you enlighten me what it is you HAVE to do in ED? If it is to reach a goal, what is that goal of yours?

Why not just enjoy the game and not grind it?

This philosophy is fine if you haven't chosen to establish in-game commitments, such as to a particular play style (eg apex PvP), or player group, or to defending a particular system, or aspects of the BGS, or all of those.

If you have made such commitments and the goal posts move (I'm talking about 2.1 RNGineering grind, here) you face a choice: spend months ascending a grind-wall that you wish didn't exist, or accept that everything you have worked towards will be harmed - perhaps even destroyed - if you do not.

The imposition of that choice (grind or become irrelevant) was so unpalatable to many of our most celebrated players that sadly, as stated in a recent thread in the RNGineering sub-forum, they left.

 

[JuicerPrime]

Well said Shadragon, as I've always said, the only grind is in your mind.

Satisfaction with the status quo comes from the same place, you know. I'd say the fact that many players have repeatedly expressed dissatisfaciton since before 1.0 is indicative of something that needs polishing gameplay-wise. Beyond that, I'm not too bothered about the debate. The grass grows, the sun rises, the ages turn, and people tell each other that their views are wrong on the ED forums. [wacky]