Just to clarify, I wasn't referring to anyone who has posted in this thread ... I don't know everything everyone has said, so I expect people to know if they've said anything about anyone.
Why task-kill combat logging in Solo is a cheat and can affect others
- Thread starter Truesilver
- Start date
So after a good night sleep, i'm sitting here in the office, having a quick bite to eat, feeling refreshed and ready to catch up on the BBC news, and see what's rollin' in the world of the ED forum.
I (whilst being tactless) yesterday, voiced my opinion of combat logging and why it's used, and how I can understand why it's used. Pirates are ultimately the unfortunate victims in all this. They're damned if do and damned if don't. I feel very sorry for players in that dark profession.
I have no sympathy for players at all ganking for salt, or giggles on their all important youtube videos. When someone video's another player in an expensive ship, mocks them, and posts ratings on their channel for attention / comedy at the expense of another person, that is cyber bullying. Cyber bulling as binary as combat logging being a cheat of sorts. I'd therefore be very inclined to be listed as a CL'er, than to be the victim of a cyber bullying episode of 'ED top salt'.
Sooo! in the fear of annoying folks as I may have done yesterday, I'll leave to say that yes pulling the plug, tabbing out to end the process, or running a Voice Attack script to automate a task kill on demand is pretty low. I don't think it's the crime of the century in lieu of other more pressing core issues. A lot more can be done to refine the grounds upon why players CL or why players find it entertaining to see another pilot lose so much credit.. A better Crime and Punishment system is sorely needed, and so are alternatives to straight OPEN mode. Whatever decision is taken, any steps at all to improve the game to a point where CL'ing isn't needed is a start and a much needed start at that.
This is an infinite topic of conversation. This subject is singularly the largest along side the OPEN vs SOLO debate which i'm sure will make many cringe at the thought
Whilst the architecture allows an instance de-materialization of ones ship, then folks will continue to argue its use, and how a badly designed system can be used to avoid losses to a badly designed system! (it's like two evils fighting, what devil do you back?)
I'm interested to see how base gameplay and fundamental design can help to resolve the need to CL, if the architecture will be here to make it part of the game.
My own personal thought is: I do not care enough about the background sim for someone in SOLO CL'ing and claiming a bunch of stars, or hand in a few tons of xyz.. My game is really unaffected, and it makes me a little self-ignorant perhaps, but honestly, I do very much like the spirit of ED, and someone combat logging in a combat zone somewhere, sometime, doesn't in any way change the way I play. Then again I don't PvP and I don't Pirate, so it's not likely to either.
I'm neither right nor wrong... just an observer through a looking glass.
I (whilst being tactless) yesterday, voiced my opinion of combat logging and why it's used, and how I can understand why it's used. Pirates are ultimately the unfortunate victims in all this. They're damned if do and damned if don't. I feel very sorry for players in that dark profession.
I have no sympathy for players at all ganking for salt, or giggles on their all important youtube videos. When someone video's another player in an expensive ship, mocks them, and posts ratings on their channel for attention / comedy at the expense of another person, that is cyber bullying. Cyber bulling as binary as combat logging being a cheat of sorts. I'd therefore be very inclined to be listed as a CL'er, than to be the victim of a cyber bullying episode of 'ED top salt'.
Sooo! in the fear of annoying folks as I may have done yesterday, I'll leave to say that yes pulling the plug, tabbing out to end the process, or running a Voice Attack script to automate a task kill on demand is pretty low. I don't think it's the crime of the century in lieu of other more pressing core issues. A lot more can be done to refine the grounds upon why players CL or why players find it entertaining to see another pilot lose so much credit.. A better Crime and Punishment system is sorely needed, and so are alternatives to straight OPEN mode. Whatever decision is taken, any steps at all to improve the game to a point where CL'ing isn't needed is a start and a much needed start at that.
This is an infinite topic of conversation. This subject is singularly the largest along side the OPEN vs SOLO debate which i'm sure will make many cringe at the thought
Whilst the architecture allows an instance de-materialization of ones ship, then folks will continue to argue its use, and how a badly designed system can be used to avoid losses to a badly designed system! (it's like two evils fighting, what devil do you back?)
I'm interested to see how base gameplay and fundamental design can help to resolve the need to CL, if the architecture will be here to make it part of the game.
My own personal thought is: I do not care enough about the background sim for someone in SOLO CL'ing and claiming a bunch of stars, or hand in a few tons of xyz.. My game is really unaffected, and it makes me a little self-ignorant perhaps, but honestly, I do very much like the spirit of ED, and someone combat logging in a combat zone somewhere, sometime, doesn't in any way change the way I play. Then again I don't PvP and I don't Pirate, so it's not likely to either.
I'm neither right nor wrong... just an observer through a looking glass.
Thank you for the clarification, o7!
Personally I only insult with comms macros before interdicting. And the insults are more questions about the competence of Archon Delaine's hair stylist than anything about the Cmdr themself...
This is laughable. "When it's ok"... It IS okay. It is the nature of the game. Or be blind and deny it... Pretending THEY (whoever imaginary enemy) are the ones "crying" is not actually the case. The people bringing it up are just other players, and the only people I ever saw CL were people who attacked me first and were losing. If you chose to log off because someone challenged you to a fight, rather than play the game and try and escape honestly, then you are a poor illegitimate player. You are no better than a spoiled brat who tips over the game board because he/she is losing. Don't like being called that? TOUGH
But yeah go play Moebius.Every time you make a whiny post about how combat logging is your only escape from the meanie players, you declare yourself part of the problem.
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There's different kinds of OKs
Ok as in decent behaviour, and OK as in according to the rules in game.
As someone above said combat logging in solo or a PG environment is probably so small in number as to be virtually meaningless.
As usual though the PVP community would rather look anywhere else rather than 'in house' for the majority of their combat log woes.
PVP players by their very nature are competitive types, being competitive quite rightly means hating losing. If you hate losing then your make believe space pixels are more valuable to you than the average non competitive Joe. Given this, and given there has been plenty of evidence in terms of streams, videos and quotes of not only PVP'ers combat logging but also some of those most vocal against combat logging doing so, I'm inclined to suggest that a look in the mirror may be in order for some on these boards.
I will say again though, if you play open in particular and you combat log you are in the wrong mode. If you bleat about combat logging as a PVP'er knowing full well members of your group do it, or worse still do it yourself, then you are a special type of hypocrite that deserves no merit or sympathy.
As usual though the PVP community would rather look anywhere else rather than 'in house' for the majority of their combat log woes.
PVP players by their very nature are competitive types, being competitive quite rightly means hating losing. If you hate losing then your make believe space pixels are more valuable to you than the average non competitive Joe. Given this, and given there has been plenty of evidence in terms of streams, videos and quotes of not only PVP'ers combat logging but also some of those most vocal against combat logging doing so, I'm inclined to suggest that a look in the mirror may be in order for some on these boards.
I will say again though, if you play open in particular and you combat log you are in the wrong mode. If you bleat about combat logging as a PVP'er knowing full well members of your group do it, or worse still do it yourself, then you are a special type of hypocrite that deserves no merit or sympathy.
It is okay full stop. It is part of the game, just like scanning objects is part of the game to you. I don;t even DO much PvP, but that is no reason for me to just side with the loggers and solo players... Just have a laugh, have some fights, log off. It is not sociopathy or anything like that. Just humans playing videogames.
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The loggers ARE part of the PvP community. They are the losers who attack you then log off when you are winning against them. Why do people somehow opretend that combat loggers are all beleaguered, bullied traders who are frightened of loud noises?
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Wow!
What a mental stunt to view CL from this point. Kudos for that, Truesilver.
What a mental stunt to view CL from this point. Kudos for that, Truesilver.
verminstar
Banned
Well I play solo almost all the time and was always under the impression that others players dont affect me and I dont affect them...play and let play if ye will. After reasding through this thread two questions immediately spring to mind...
First, howexactly does a solo player logging on an npc affect other players? Still aint getting that bit even after readingthe op twice.
Second, how do ye prove its an intentional log out or a simple disconnect?
Personally, I dont cl and never have fer reasons of my own..this seems honestly more an attack on solo mode itself from someone who is vexed at their content not playing in open. I just dont see the point of yet another thread about something I already consider a non issue...you guys are funny...not haha funny, the other kind of funny.
First, howexactly does a solo player logging on an npc affect other players? Still aint getting that bit even after readingthe op twice.
Second, how do ye prove its an intentional log out or a simple disconnect?
Personally, I dont cl and never have fer reasons of my own..this seems honestly more an attack on solo mode itself from someone who is vexed at their content not playing in open. I just dont see the point of yet another thread about something I already consider a non issue...you guys are funny...not haha funny, the other kind of funny.
Given the sheer size of the player area (400 billion star systems), and given the size of the bubble (a few thousand star systems), and given the inherent dilution of the playerbase due to those (e.g. threads about "Where are all the players?", "Where is everyone?"), I honestly don't see how one player in Solo affects my being 2000LY from Sol, or how said player affects my docking at whatever starport.
Even as an Explorer, I have engineered my Cutter to be able to protect itself. It has engineered shields, engineered shield boosters, engineered weapons, a fighter bay, heavy duty hull, amongst a very long list of modifications. She can take care of most sticky situations involving NPC's. So I have no need myself of combat logging in Solo, even if I wanted to.
But I can't say I'm too bothered if some CMDR I don't know or care about, has combat logged in Solo. Yes it's cheating. So what? It bothers me not a jot, because the effect it has on the BGS or Powerplay - which I care about even less - will be inherently miniscule.
Even as an Explorer, I have engineered my Cutter to be able to protect itself. It has engineered shields, engineered shield boosters, engineered weapons, a fighter bay, heavy duty hull, amongst a very long list of modifications. She can take care of most sticky situations involving NPC's. So I have no need myself of combat logging in Solo, even if I wanted to.
But I can't say I'm too bothered if some CMDR I don't know or care about, has combat logged in Solo. Yes it's cheating. So what? It bothers me not a jot, because the effect it has on the BGS or Powerplay - which I care about even less - will be inherently miniscule.
I doesn't. Combat logging is quitting the game, I can't see how someone can influence the BGS by "not playing'.
And before anyone jumps on me: YES, I KNOW THAT PULLING THE PLUG IS AN EXPLOIT
The only thing that happens is that the player doesn't need to pay the rebuy, which is laughable because most players trying to influence the BGS have hundreds of millions anyway.
So what happens when I try to push a state by killing 1000 ships? Number 500 gives me a headache and I pull the plug, after relogging I continue killing them. It takes the same time as a rebuy. Doing missions to get the money back has a bigger influence on system states...
And we are talking about 1/1000, most players don't combat log in solo.
Another disclaimer: YES I KNOW THAT'S AN EXPLOIT, IT'S NOT OK AND I WILL NOT DO IT! I PROMISE!
Pulling the plug is not an exploit It doesn't abuse existing features.
*hops on his pedanticycle and gets the heck out of here*
It doesn't abuse existing features.*hops on his pedanticycle and gets the heck out of here*
If there were no more bugs to fix, no more expansions to release, the network were 100% stable 100% of the time, everything were perfectly balanced, and no other enhancements left to implement, there were peace in the world, poverty and greed had been eliminated, dogs and cats lived together and division by zero were defined - then and only then would I care only slightly more than zero about this.
Oh I agree and that was my point, because it's far easier for them to blame 'carebears' than it is to look 'in house'.
Wow!
What a mental stunt to view CL from this point. Kudos for that, Truesilver.
Ha ha, thank you Mr von Hackbeil, sir, much appreciated!
While this (I hope) isn't a trollolo thread (even if it is Friday) I'm not personally especially motivated by concerns over the BGS, Powerplay, CG's etc.
What really lies behind my motivation is the sheer number of times I've seen forum users say (in context):
'A log is a win. How does it affect you that they didn't rebuy?'
I've answered that in the context of Open PvP many times but no matter how much detail I give concerning player group warfare or the protection of new players, the answers never seem to register.
Eventually I realised that this is because most users of this forum have little appreciation of the amount of competition there is in this game (it's different on reddit, for better or worse) - and the variety of forms that competition takes - and think all combat is two (or more) randoms meeting once and once only.
One of the main reasons logging matters in Open is that the participants in the combat frequently have agendas.
So I thought that perhaps if I could push the envelope wider - really challenge people's thinking about logging and competition via examples concerning Solo - that might (for a few) get them thinking more Open-mindedly (geddit?) also.
And as I said earlier, more positively (and perhaps in due course in a fresh thread) I would like to encourage more players into the competitive endgame (goals being PvP, BGS or Powerplay-related ... not personal acquisition). I hope that FDev will in due course enrich the content there because to me that is where true longevity lies - not in an annual Groundhog Day of grinding for new, more powerful power-creep modules.
I had a thought, and it amused me as an analogy.. so wanted to share.
Disclaimer: this is a figment of my imagination and no way resembles real life or how my mind really works. My mind only thought about this because it wasn't thinking!
Non consensual PvP interaction in ED that ends with the non consensual party losing a battle and ending in death.. is like..
After my bike accident, hobbling to the post office to deposit some money.. being ganked by a pack of local chavs knowing that i neither had the capacity to fight back even if I wanted to: saying I resisted, therefore we put you in hospital..
If I could have combat logged irl, saving myself and my money - I would have done so!!
See told you it was a great analogy!
OK it's really not, but I get the feeling that somewhere deep inside I do in some respect emotionally handle both situations the same. Somewhere in the back of my mind, somehow, to me, the violation is the same, be it pixels ina computer game or in real life.. Maybe that's the root of the problem, people are attached to their stuff.
Interesting
OK now i can go hide under my 'resist all' umbrella...
Disclaimer: this is a figment of my imagination and no way resembles real life or how my mind really works. My mind only thought about this because it wasn't thinking!
Non consensual PvP interaction in ED that ends with the non consensual party losing a battle and ending in death.. is like..
After my bike accident, hobbling to the post office to deposit some money.. being ganked by a pack of local chavs knowing that i neither had the capacity to fight back even if I wanted to: saying I resisted, therefore we put you in hospital..
If I could have combat logged irl, saving myself and my money - I would have done so!!
See told you it was a great analogy!
OK it's really not, but I get the feeling that somewhere deep inside I do in some respect emotionally handle both situations the same. Somewhere in the back of my mind, somehow, to me, the violation is the same, be it pixels ina computer game or in real life.. Maybe that's the root of the problem, people are attached to their stuff.
Interesting
OK now i can go hide under my 'resist all' umbrella...
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yes it is. This is about affecting combat logging on solo, so this is about combat logging, cheating, and solo. If combat logging is a cheating and combat logging is affecting solo, then simply combat logging in solo is a cheating.
removed, post is about task killing
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With the only difference between a cheat, and an allowed action being 15 seconds I can't see how true CL'ing can make any difference to the game. Even considering Truesilver's examples. The Mode Hopping exploit has a far greater impact on the BGS, and a players wealth than CL'ing of any stripe. Using the BGS in an attempt to highlight the effects of CL'ing is simply an effort to get the great masses up in arms over the issue.
Not one player can distinguish between a timed exit and a true CL in game. Neither can the BGS.
Reprinted with the approval of the author.
Not one player can distinguish between a timed exit and a true CL in game. Neither can the BGS.
Reprinted with the approval of the author.