I'm a Casual Player: What Elite Needs to Draw and Keep Us

[xondk]

Sorry but this seems contradictory. Don't casual players buy the expansions and the cosmetics.

And here's some perspective...Steam charts shows No Man's Sky peak players at 212k, ED at 18k. Ah but sarge, you say, not everyone plays on Steam. So, okay, let's be very generous and say only 20% play on Steam, so 90k peak for ED. Let's round it up to 100k for good measure. That still leaves 112k people who could, potentially, be in the market for a game like ED. So, why are they not buying it?

And where did the circa 10k players go that were playing last October but not this one? (18k peak was Oct 2015, most recent highest players was just shy of 8k a couple of weeks ago)

I didn't pay £70 (ED and Horizons) to play forever in the one ship I got with some effort in the first week.

1: According to Frontier's own information released, Elite has sold over 1.4 million copies last I checked.
1a: Steamspy is, by no means accurate, for one example, anyone with a private account isn't counted, and you are also forgetting about average play time, which is better 200 players playing 20 minutes each? or 20 players playing 200 minutes each?
1b: you do not know if these people do not already own Elite.

2: You are not going to be stuck, there are plenty of great small ships you can fly and do everything that the game has to offer to you, cobra mk3 remains one of my most favourite ships to fly and do stuff, but I do not expect it to be able to handle 'big' things, so I scale my expectations down, and thoroughly enjoy myself, and that is the problem in my book with many people now a days, unless you have the 'biggest'/'shiniest' or such of things, stuff isn't "fun" which in my book couldn't be farther from the truth, and just sets up people to be disappointed, but you know what? at least in my book, that isn't the game that is to blame for that, but the current gaming culture, and the enormous amount of casual games, that focus on quickly giving people something big and shiny. And no, it isn't the players fault directly either, at most they are just letting themselves be swept away by the casual gaming culture/market/companies, but people should at least try to stop changing stuff because it is different from what they are used to in my book. Instead try to adapt yourself to this new thing, and see what happens, I find that to be the most enjoyable part of gaming, adapting to something new rather then just getting more of the same.

 

[Andovar]

Uh...they store it just fine? you just go there, and you get it? it invalidates itself after 24 hours, because the market changes, so.....

Come on now. That's like saying instead of going online and checking the cost of something, that I should drive over to an Amazon warehouse to see the cost and if they have it in stock.
Or that you need to be on the floor of the stock exchange to actually trade a stock.

Anyway, real-life comparisons aside, I understand that they did this for gameplay reasons, but to many of us it feels like a poor choice of direction. All it's really done is caused the players to go outside the game for information. I know that virtually every game these days has their own information wiki, but in ED's case it feels like there's just way too much that's outside. Which to me indicates that the game is lacking in providing the player with sufficient in-game tools.

Thinking about it now, the OP probably shouldn't have made it a casual gamer argument, because "casual gamer" can be dissected six ways till sunday. But many of the gameplay issues he brought up still stand.

 

[Anopheles]

Game should have been set up with an Arcade Mode (with casual friendly tat like pvp flagging and what have you) and a Simulation mode and that would have solved all the problems.

 

[Enderby]

Cool! Would love a simulation mode!

 

[AveMe]

See post 2.1 release threads from so many it is not funny complaining about the sharp increase in difficulty because of engineer weapons, though that said maybe mission specific npc's could be made tougher, since they only spawn specifically in certain situations, where making engineer npc's part of general npc spawning, well yeah.

It is an uphill battle for Frontier, balancing the difference playstyles, be on the forum for a while and you see the pattern, one specific type of change, triggers one specific group of people, repeat.

RNGineer modded NPCs weren't a bad thing. The problem was that every NPC had them and elite NPCs were attacking you every jump. Getting attacked by overpowered enemies is fine as long as you don't get attacked by them EVERY 30 SECONDS.

 

[xondk]

Come on now. That's like saying instead of going online and checking the cost of something, that I should drive over to an Amazon warehouse to see the cost and if they have it in stock.
Or that you need to be on the floor of the stock exchange to actually trade a stock.

Anyway, real-life comparisons aside, I understand that they did this for gameplay reasons, but to many of us it feels like a poor choice of direction. All it's really done is caused the players to go outside the game for information. I know that virtually every game these days has their own information wiki, but in ED's case it feels like there's just way too much that's outside. Which to me indicates that the game is lacking in providing the player with sufficient in-game tools.

Thinking about it now, the OP probably shouldn't have made it a casual gamer argument, because "casual gamer" can be dissected six ways till sunday. But many of the gameplay issues he brought up still stand.

Understand that I'm not trying to justify anything, I'm trying to make you aware that you are comparing something on earth to something in the milkyway, over light years upon light years of distance, it simply can't compare in my book, saying 'but we can do this, so why can't we do that' just doesn't work.

RNGineer modded NPCs weren't a bad thing. The problem was that every NPC had them and elite NPCs were attacking you every jump. Getting attacked by overpowered enemies is fine as long as you don't get attacked by them EVERY 30 SECONDS.

Wasn't every, but yes, was many, problem is you would eventually run into them, and as long as they were part of the crowd, in any way shape or form you'd end with same problem.

 

[Sgt Pepper]

Not too sure where you are getting you stats from, but they seem to be completely wrong.

The most concurrent players on steam for NMS in the last 2 weeks is just under a 1000 players, ED is around the 8000 Mark.

Players in the last 2 weeks ED is around 90000, NMS is around 50000.

Far more players playing ED. Remember none of that includes the people not using steam.

Also nobody is asking to to use 1 ship for the whole game. I have been playing for 2 years now, but no where near getting or affording an Anaconda or corvette. it's fine, all my games takes me longer to do. That's life.

Try playing a themepark mmorpg as a casual. That is far tougher.

It seems to me that most players are casual players in this game and most don't have an issue.

I was comparing NMS's all time peak to ED's all time peak. NMS's players soon dropped off because the game was a disaster but it certainly sold a crapload.

And many themepark MMORPGs now are very casual friendly.

1: According to Frontier's own information released, Elite has sold over 1.4 million copies last I checked.
1a: Steamspy is, by no means accurate, for one example, anyone with a private account isn't counted, and you are also forgetting about average play time, which is better 200 players playing 20 minutes each? or 20 players playing 200 minutes each?
1b: you do not know if these people do not already own Elite.

2: You are not going to be stuck, there are plenty of great small ships you can fly and do everything that the game has to offer to you, cobra mk3 remains one of my most favourite ships to fly and do stuff, but I do not expect it to be able to handle 'big' things, so I scale my expectations down, and thoroughly enjoy myself, and that is the problem in my book with many people now a days, unless you have the 'biggest'/'shiniest' or such of things, stuff isn't "fun" which in my book couldn't be farther from the truth, and just sets up people to be disappointed, but you know what? at least in my book, that isn't the game that is to blame for that, but the current gaming culture, and the enormous amount of casual games, that focus on quickly giving people something big and shiny. And no, it isn't the players fault directly either, at most they are just letting themselves be swept away by the casual gaming culture/market/companies, but people should at least try to stop changing stuff because it is different from what they are used to in my book. Instead try to adapt yourself to this new thing, and see what happens, I find that to be the most enjoyable part of gaming, adapting to something new rather then just getting more of the same.

1.4 million copies sold over 2 years is...okay but this game could be doing better and I think whatever spin you put on the accuracy of the stats, relative to each other it seems more people have played NMS than ED, yes, they didn't play long but it shows there's a market for this type of game that ED really needs to be able to take advantage of.

Moreso, given that NMS failed to live up to expectations and SC is...I'm hesitant to say vapourware but it's certainly close to it, this should be putting ED in a prime position as there simply aren't many titles like it.

As to 2, I was responding more to the point that was made which boiled down what does it matter, you can do everything in the Cobra. And yes, you can. But I paid for a game that offers the chance to own many different ships, I'd like to get them in a reasonable timeframe without dedicating every spare moment to the game.

 

[Exiton]

Repped.

Also

Frequent, forced interdiction over the two random garbage items I was given for a mission.

Sometimes it's literally garbage they are after. Don't ask why though.

 

[AveMe]

Repped.

Also



Sometimes it's literally garbage they are after. Don't ask why though.

[url]http://storage7.static.itmages.ru/i/16/1115/s_1479253885_4890509_62090cca30.png[/url]

But... But... Biowaste is the most valuable item in the universe!
Well, as long as it's mined from sothis' toilets

 

[rjwhite41]

I was comparing NMS's all time peak to ED's all time peak. NMS's players soon dropped off because the game was a disaster but it certainly sold a crapload.

Marketing. False marketing at that for which they were being investigated for.

Some of the OP's complaints and suggestions are valid, some are not. Suggesting the sky is falling is ridiculous. I own 2 copies of this game and I play nearly everyday. Neither was purchased or is played through Steam. That said player counts on Steam have been fairly steady for quite some time. They spike around major updates and then level off again.

The problem here is fdev. Fdev wants to listen to the players, to make this game better for everyone, but unfortunately that just leads to these kinds of tirades on a consistent basis. We don't see the bigger picture. We don't see how the updates stack on each other. We don't even know what 2.4 is, let alone season 3. Fdev knows all of this. Trust in them or don't, it's your choice, but the game is moving forward with or without you and if enough people quit paying, notice I said paying not playing, it will cease to exist. So far, I've certainly gotten my money's worth out of it and I expect that to continue to be the case for quite some time. I usually ignore these threads and I will return to doing so.

 

[Adhock]

I am also a casual player. I only get a few hours a day for Elite with a full time work week and overtime with friends who are not into the Elite scene and don't enjoy pilot games like I do. So I have to split time between work, a social life with friends who play other games that I play with them, and making time for dating/significant other when that becomes a factor.

I think the OP is being very selfish. They want everything to be delivered to them with a click of a button. This is very obvious in their desire to have everything available on the market with a button click. Hell they even drag real life "convenience" in as a comparison.

"Trouble is, us casual gamers...we aren't hand held addicts. We are people with diverse interests who also like to fly space ships on a somewhat regular basis."

You're right OP. We aren't hand held addicts. I certainly don't want everything right at my fingertips. I don't want to have my hand held and guided through pushing a button and getting reward. I am a diverse person. More diverse than you in that I enjoy the thrill of the hunt. It makes the payout much more worth it and lets me feel like I EARNED the right to own what it is I have.

I am a casual like you OP. But I disagree with everything you said. I have the patience to make it happen. It seems you don't.

 

[Deadspin]

Read: Unless I'm carrying expensive goods or go looking for trouble, I don't want to face risk.

OP also went on to explain how ridiculous he finds it that you begin to get interdicted within minutes of acquiring any kind of cargo into your cargo hold. If I am carrying the cheapest known material known to the bubble and the Type 9 10ls in front of me is carrying Platinum, does it make sense to interdict the anaconda that's only got 10 tons of iron in it? No. The interdiction mechanic on the NPC side of the house only has one real rule where pirating is concerned, "Does player ship have cargo? If yes, interdict." You really shouldn't try to simplify the overall message that OP was attempting to convey because that's when you get it wrong.

4) Or...FUN. People are complaining about a grind, but the only objectives I have seen here are grinding.

If the "PvE community" is that much holier than thou, why do I see a consistent lack of proper interaction with each other? Join a faction. Spread the faction. Do CGs together. Go exploring together. Go canyon racing together. Get the buggies out. Gank some other noobs. Do SOMETHING other than mind numbing Sothis runs, for the love of Talos.

If "biggest ship is the only way" is all you can see, then sorry but self imposed grind.

The entire portion of the OP that you quoted here is basically referencing QOL improvements in the UI and game mechanics, nothing about completely getting rid of the Engineer grind. He's also talking about making it easier to manage engineer work by opening up the UI further to include more than one pinned material, the assumption being that Hey, it's the year 3000 and whatever you dimwits, I think our on board computers can handle more than one blueprint and perhaps even store the plans/items needed for multiple prints from various engineers. Way to completely miss the point with your bigotry though.

5) Progression should not be confused with grind. Just because you head towards a goal it doesn't become "grinding". Play EQ on project 1999 if you want to understand grind, and yet love it at the same time. I swear some people would get personal enjoyment from buying the game, installing it, then seeing the words "GAME COMPLETE!!!!!" appear on the screen.

I was quite fond of EQ and am very well acquainted with it's horrific grind.

Ladies and gentlemen...gaming in the 21st century.

I feel a certain sense of irony, this coming from you.

It's not that Frontier are duplicating, it seems to be more that Frontier are not cut-and-pasting bits of that game into this game to accommodate the wishes of a subset of the player-base.

It's not that at all. To cite specific examples, look at CCPs methods for dealing with ganking and bounty hunting. Both of the mechanics they've implemented to handle those two things alone are balanced and work to cover what they are designed to cover. If Frontier introduced either of those mechanics to this game it would be a huge QOL improvement to some players and player groups. If they introduced the NPC element alone I'd be willing to bet that the cries of "ganker" and "psychopath" across the forums would die down to nothing within a week or two and Open might even become a viable mode to play in again for some.

God forbid anyone here look paste their distaste for player controlled bases/economy when mentioning EVE Online.

 

[SjadoHawk]

I am a casual gamer, and the OP has some points.. although voiced a bit harshly. But imagination is needed in every game. In the future our ships would run on autopilot and you would select a destination and the ship would fly there... you don't even need to be in the cockpit, but what fun would that be for a game. So I like to imagine that some off center political lobby group got it in their tiny minds that AI's would not be allowed to fly ships and banned any such operating systems on our ships. Galactic corporation (aka N.P.C.) restrict the real time transmission of data as to keep us freelance pilots out of their profits.

I try not to fight, but that is part of our game and breaks up the monotony of being a space trucker. I saw a video of a Commander in an Anaconda with a Mostly Harmless ranking, and was impressed that they could have kept it so low. I have a nice region of space that is currently not effected by Power Play which for me is great (wuss that I am) and worked the mission boards, and now passenger lounge as my main part of the game. There are parts of the game that I love, and others hate and vice-versa.

So to end my rambling, we need to use our imagination - don't ask why not, ask why is.

Fly safe

 

[Archvillain]

Going casual can make a thing accessible to many more people... but that can also leave it invisible and lost amidst the clanging noise of the millions of other high-accessibility games all clamoring for casual attention.

Going niche will limit a thing's accessibility to a smaller group of people... but that can also allow it to be king in that space and use that position to build a more secure kingdom that lasts.

Speaking for myself, the world is overflowing with casual games and has almost nothing else like Elite. We are not starved of casual fare and Elite will hopefully continue to get sufficient attention if only because it already stands almost alone, albeit in a much smaller space.
But of course that is not to say that there aren't things that casual games do well or that Elite should not learn from them. Some of the suggestions may be worth pursuing, even if I think the overall goal / business-philosophy is not healthy

 

[Chrysophylax]

Yet, here is Elite. One thousand years in the future. One THOUSAND. And no internet. No web. I have to fly around, HOPING to find the thing I WANT to buy.

OP, I agree with you 100%.

This point here has some ~lore~ behind it, but the real reason, and I suspect why the mission board takes ages to load, is related to how the BGS handles inventory and how the galaxy itself is generated. You can't spacegoogle where to buy gimballed burst lasers because that would be a very expensive operation to do. Much as we want it, it will never happen because the system isn't designed to accommodate it. Instead you have to memorize 'high tech high pop' because it will yield the highest chance of success.

 

[Itaki]

God forbid anyone here look paste their distaste for player controlled bases/economy when mentioning EVE Online.

Did you say Eve Online? That space game that is now free to play? (Yes with limitations. Full access if you pay to play)

F2P Eve Online! Alpha Clone mode!

https://community.eveonline.com/new...ine-ascension-has-been-successfully-deployed/

 

[Red Anders]

I was comparing NMS's all time peak to ED's all time peak. NMS's players soon dropped off because the game was a disaster but it certainly sold a crapload.

It did, that's the ridiculous thing about NMS - for a game that was priced at AAA levels and wasn't ever based on the model of generating future revenue with paid-for DLC, it's been a huge success commercially mainly thanks to the people who pre-ordered. If there's any lesson to be learned by gamers on the back of NMS it's 'don't ever pre-order anything' but as I said to a mate the other day you can guarantee that a load of the players who were disappointed with NMS on release and got refunds would have immediately spent them on pre-ordering something else. There's none so blind as those who will not see.

TL;DR

 

[Spacecat]

It does take a bit more commitment than some games to get started, but once you have the basics down, you can do as much or as little as you feel like.

 

[thirstyfish]

Or you won't have enough players to support continued development.

It's not an ultimatum. It's a reality. And I am not suggesting we make the game brain dead. I am suggesting we make it less outright inconvenient to play.

The point, after all, is fun. Elite shouldn't be a job. Right now, it often feels like one.

Res est perceptio. Your reality isn't reality for others. What you have posted is your opinion and is not truth. Reality is relative.

From my point of view, you have made the game not fun for yourself. You chose to track 5 different spreadsheets, engage in RNG grind, take stacked missions (which have always increased your chances of interdiction, seen this since way back in 1.5), and anything else I may have missed. You brought this on yourself. I haven't had the need to engage with the engineers much at all. It simply is a non issue for me. Your whole thing about the "Meta" build is misguided. The intent of the engineers update was to get rid of the "Meta build."

Also, combat is staple of elite. Every time you play this game, you are taking the risk of being engaged in combat for which you were not totally prepared for.

Load times seems to be a common complaint recently. Take into account communications latency and that not all commanders have access to top-end gaming PCs and that not all internet connections are created equal. There may not be a good solution that works for everyone.

Pirates: there is only so much that FD can put into the NPC AI. Just think about the coding you are asking for. Also, pirates tend to be psychopaths, so what exactly were you expecting? Its in the title Elite: Dangerous.

 

[Ignition]

The ultimate decision maker owns a majority shareholding in the company - it would take a buyout to replace him.

Frontier have said from the start that they are making the game that they want to play - they have made no secret of that.

FD don't know what kind of game they want. They want a PC game and they want a console game. They want a easy game but also a very VERY time consuming simplistic one that can be played with 4 buttons. They want an MMO, or an online game with player interaction but the only interaction in this game is shoot, chat and flash the lights to others.

FD has no clue what game they want. FD don't play their game, if they did, they would know how boring and broken it is.

The only thing Im sure is that the game designers don't know how to make an interactive, complex and fun game. Its just one more simplistic generic game.

Put simply, in a game where we are given a 1:1 scale representation of the galaxy to play in, travel (i.e. time) is required for everything we do....

Its also a game, a game has to be fun. Flying straight several minutes watching youtube is not a solution.