The Star Citizen Thread v5

[Viajero]

*Mod hat off

Sorry, should have been clearer. This is what I meant by "continuous terrain generation". It's why I find the idea of "stitching areas" kind of funny, even a game with fully premade lanscapes can smoothly blend in extra polygons as you move about, and for good quality you need that kind of system long before you start having to worry about 32 bit precision.

Sorry for my "lost in translation" but still not quite follow the answer , last time I try, promised. Does SC overlap (maybe stitch is not the right word) some sort of premade landscapes in a smooth manner via extra polygones blend in? Or does it seamlessly and procedurally generate on the fly the complete surface as you move anywhere you go in a planet?

 

[Ben Parry]

*Mod hat off



Sorry for my "lost in translation" but still not quite follow the answer , last time I try, promised. Does SC overlap (maybe stitch is not the right word) some sort of premade landscapes in a smooth manner via extra polygones blend in? Or does it seamlessly and procedurally generate on the fly the complete surface as you move anywhere you go in a planet?

I think anything I say on that will probably be inaccurate and then misinterpreted. I don't directly work with the planet (and those who do are in Frankfurt), so my understanding of it is on the level of half-watching some of the public videos and overhearing people talking about the occasional very specific subtask. I can be certain, though, that it's not some system where you walk 8km, then it throws out a load of data from behind you and loads a bunch more in front, because (a) I'd have seen that happen and (b) dividing things up map-by-map would be a really trashy design.

 

[dsmart]

If SC is using 64bit positioning then it's a no brainer that they have stiched up scenes. Any 2nd semester engineering student can tell you that.
But does it matter when the transition is good enough?

They won't be able to have in-system control such as Elite (super cruise). But then it doesn't seem like anyone wants something simillar anyway.

They'll be able to hack in an "interruption" (interdiction) feature of QD, where it'll generate you a skybox and put you in the center of yet another 64bit scene until you engage QD again. That would work and it would work fine too. It would probably take you a century of traveling at normal speed to go out of bounds so that's not a worry.


I want to ask you what you think of them hand-crafting and streaming all their planets (that's what they say and it seems like they're doing).
Is it true? How would they store the data? Have they come up with a groundbraking packing technique?

That's the hilarious part. These guys are refusing to believe that this has all been done before, is not groundbreaking etc. I mean, I am having a discussion about a guy who really doesn't like the word "switched"

They are obviously using pregen maps for the terrain and which are generated in the CryEngine editor. The map data isn't that huge tbh since they are only going to have a small surface area anyway. Plus, it's not like they are ever going to build that many maps anyway, seeing as this -show is on the verge of collapse anyway. If we ever see a planet region, that's precisely what we'll see. Those 'maps' are no different from any of the handcrafted stations and space scene/maps.

- - - Updated - - -

Both games use continuous mesh/texture/etc streaming for discrete objects, as you'd expect. Both have continuous terrain mesh generation as you move, albeit with different underlying algorithms.
ED opted for local 32 bit coordinates but 64 bit communication between clients, SC opted for 64 bit coordinates across the board. Swings and roundabouts with either technique.

That doesn't answer his question. What is with you CIG guys and your inability to answer questions with clarity?

Read his question again please.

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Is this gonna turn out to be a misunderstanding based on extremely pedantic definitions?

Derek said is his quote above;

64-Bit floating point precision map is NOT the same as 64-Bit positioning

I'm sure he'll be along in due course to clarify his intended meaning but what does that mean to peeps that have some sort of understanding of this stuff?

It's neither semantics, nor rocket science. On deals with the range/size a map can have, the other deals with the positioning within said map. You can have the former and still use 32-Bit positioning with a 'floating origin'. It's complicated and I don't have time to type a White paper on a mobile phone. But the missive I wrote and linked this morning, contains a link (at the bottom of the page) to an OP which contains links to my discussion on this specific issue.

 

[Britney]

Hmmm I see. As you seem way more knowledgeable about this game than I am, would you answer a question, as I know nothing about game development. Will all these parts fit seamlessly together, making TBFGE?

Probably yes. Most game mechanics still have to be created from scratch, although there are rumours they are playing a more fully fleshed out version behind the curtains and it is the TBFGE. (Very) Likely the next patches will increase the scope of the game significantly, probably within the next weeks. So buy a ship now, they will raise the prices.

 

[Ben Parry]

I just like that we still apparently have to choose between "totally ground-breaking" and "completely fake haven't done anything".

 

[dsmart]

Sorry, should have been clearer. This is what I meant by "continuous terrain generation". It's why I find the idea of "stitching areas" kind of funny, even a game with fully premade lanscapes can smoothly blend in extra polygons as you move about, and for good quality you need that kind of system long before you start having to worry about 32 bit precision.

No, that's nonsense.

We're talking about the size of regions and how you guys are addressing the issue of expanse.

Anyone who saw CitizenCon can see how a transition sequence was used to mask the transition between space and planet. Heck, it even glitched - which gave the whole thing away.

That's what we're talking about. Nothing to do with streaming. We're talking about world sizes and how the transition is handled in order to give the illusion of expanse.

 

[Ben Parry]

It's neither semantics, nor rocket science. On deals with the range/size a map can have, the other deals with the positioning within said map. You can have the former and still use 32-Bit positioning with a 'floating origin'. It's complicated and I don't have time to type a White paper on a mobile phone. But the missive I wrote and linked this morning, contains a link (at the bottom of the page) to an OP which contains links to my discussion on this specific issue.

Oh, I see. Specifically doing the map in 64-bit, like Elite.
If that were the case, wouldn't it have been easier for CIG to make a big deal out of having done that, rather than making a big deal out of a different thing that they hadn't done?

 

[Ben Parry]

No, that's nonsense.

We're talking about the size of regions and how you guys are addressing the issue of expanse.

Anyone who saw CitizenCon can see how a transition sequence was used to mask the transition between space and planet. Heck, it even glitched - which gave the whole thing away.

That's what we're talking about. Nothing to do with streaming. We're talking about world sizes and how the transition is handled in order to give the illusion of expanse.

That's what you're talking about, but Viajero began talking about loading of areas etc, which I agree is a totally different subject, and as I said, starts being necessary to consider well before the issue of expanse, as you call it.
The game does glitch more than it ought to, and it's a shame it did it somewhere that made you think that it was there to hide a trick.
I'll say right now though, and any professional reputation on the line, that while the glitch might have been caused by crossing the atmosphere boundary or entering planetary physics mode or whatever other system needs ironing out, it wasn't there to mask a transition, because there isn't one. Even the starting bedroom in Port Olisar, as I've said upthread, is tens of thousands of km from the origin (maybe more, didn't count the zeroes). It just is. It's not some amazing deal that it is, it's not like no other company could ever have done this, it's just the tech solution they decided would be best in the long run for what we needed, so they made it be that way.

 

[DLewth]

Well, we have seen them doing standard map stuff in sandbox but as far as I know, these are only certain areas: the bulk of the planet will be PG. So whilst Derek would be right in saying these map areas would need be "stitched in", it wouldn't be from inside the 'next map over' - it would be from the PG world, and could be done in the background well in advance of actually arriving there. No particular reason this couldn't be seamless, that I can see.

With the disclaimer that I'm not a game dev so I'm talking through my hat.

 

[Ben Parry]

Well, we have seen them doing standard map stuff in sandbox but as far as I know, these are only certain areas: the bulk of the planet will be PG. So whilst Derek would be right in saying these map areas would need be "stitched in", it wouldn't be from inside the 'next map over' - it would be from the PG world, and could be done in the background well in advance of actually arriving there. No particular reason this couldn't be seamless, that I can see.

With the disclaimer that I'm not a game dev so I'm talking through my hat.

Yeah, you've got the right idea. Seamless loading of the stuff in the world is totally unrelated to the precision of the coordinates you're placing it at once it's there.

 

[DLewth]

Yeah, you've got the right idea.

There's a first time for everything.

I'm guessing FDev do the wrecks & ruins the same way...

 

[Ben Parry]

There's a first time for everything.

I'm guessing FDev do the wrecks & ruins the same way...

Indeed, but it goes beyond that - even if you're dogfighting an anaconda, bits of it will be being loaded in as it flies towards you, and evicted again if flies away a bit, and something else more pressingly needs the memory.

 

[DLewth]

Indeed, but it goes beyond that - even if you're dogfighting an anaconda, bits of it will be being loaded in as it flies towards you, and evicted again if flies away a bit, and something else more pressingly needs the memory.

Yeah. In my case, the rebuy screen. [knocked out]

 

[Ben Parry]

Yeah. In my case, the rebuy screen. [knocked out]

Haah!

 

[frostypaw]

I just like that we still apparently have to choose between "totally ground-breaking" and "completely fake haven't done anything".

I don't think the majority of er... dissenters think that's the case. I'd say it's more like the marketing blow what has been done out of proportion and overstate their cases, then make no effort to correct any hype based misunderstandings leading to some mad beliefs. I've had people get downright angry at me for suggesting there's no proc-gen in the current release... they were convinced all the moons/etc were all there it just wasn't letting you go that close - when you're starting so far off the mark then it does end up sounding a bit like "completely fake and haven't done anything" as the "quite like they say" gets lost

The blame sadly does land at CIG's feet - too much boasting before being sure they could build it and make it fun. I fear even the special bits that do come out will fall under that cloud if the whole isn't stunning

 

[Sunleader]

He is right. They LOOK awesome. But that is all there is. They feel and play horrible.

They Play like an Alpha.
Did you Play the early Alpha Builds of 7 Days to Die ^^
Or maybe Ark Evolution *gg*

Alphas have this habit of missing some stuff.
In the case of SC the Alpha still misses Mass Feedback in its Physics. Which means that Spaceships still move like they have little to no Mass. Which makes the Flight Feel really really Surreal.

But thats not really surprising for an Alpha. Its not required for the Game to work. And due to the Immense Complexity of the Game using so many different things in the World. The Physics will require an Insane amount of Fine Tuning. So it was likely considered a Waste of Time to do it for anything were its not immediately required to make the Game Playable.


You guys simply Forget its an Alpha. its not an Finished Game. So the things which are not immediately required for Testing like a Ship looking nice and Floaty when Taking Off. Is simply not on the First Places of the list *gg*

Just curious, but why do you sign your posts *gg* ?

*gg* is an simple chat message and pretty much means that I am Grinning.
I am not Signing my Posts with that by the way. Its just something done at the end of an Sentence or Statement. Thus its also prone to end at the end of an Post.

The Grinning itself is simply to show that I am somewhat enjoying this.
Its Funny to see just how much Hate there is in this Forum against anything Related to Star Citizen.
Its Obvious that most People here are incredible biased and would likely find fault with anything in this Game anyways.
Some of these attempts are so incredible obvious and so insanely Laughable that I just cant help but Grin *gg*

 

[AJW]

...
But thats not really surprising for an Alpha. Its not required for the Game to work.

Actually, it is, when the company website explicitly advertises features as 'play now'. They are taking payment for such content, and are contractually obliged to provide it. https://robertsspaceindustries.com/feature-list

 

[Tippis]

But thats not really surprising for an Alpha. Its not required for the Game to work.

It's very surprising for an alpha since it's required to even begin testing a key component of the central conceit of the entire game. Without it, there's little point in even having an alpha. It's the kind of thing you want to get right pretty much from the start so you can start adding content and tune that around some kind of balancing benchmark.

So no, they don't play like an alpha. They play like a hacked-together tech demo, which is also more in line with every other lacking core game mechanic and dynamic that you'd need before you could actually call it an alpha. It doesn't even reach the level of vertical slice because of how there is nothing to connect up to create such a showcase of features.

Its Funny to see just how much Hate there is in this Forum against anything Related to Star Citizen.
Its Obvious that most People here are incredible biased

No, people here are not incredibly biased. It's simply that you're misinterpreting a lack of the blind adoration and a bias in favour of the game in spite of its obvious shortcomings — i.e. a neutral position — as a bias against. On a relative scale, your zero-point is completely mis-calibrated so once you step outside the safe zone of unadulterated praise, an even-handed and factual assessment appears to you to be hugely negative.

There is no hate against “anything related to Star Citizen.” When something noteworthy appears, it is duly noted. The problem is that it so rarely happens that any noteworthiness is due to something positive or impressive. Instead, what there is, is a healthy scepticism and a strong reflex to ridicule the ridiculous, especially any attempt at hyping the unimpressive or mundane.

 

[AJW]

It isn't really possible to 'hate' Star Citizen. There isn't enough of it to merit such emotion.

 

[Sunleader]

Actually, it is, when the company website explicitly advertises features as 'play now'. They are taking payment for such content, and are contractually obliged to provide it. https://robertsspaceindustries.com/feature-list

Actually the dont.
No Offense but they Labeled it as an Alpha.

""
Disclaimer

Please note that the game presently available is in an Alpha stage and is currently in development. Parts of the game are made available for your testing and feedback. Naturally, alpha releases are a work in progress and will have bugs and other deficiencies. We encourage community feedback but the final game design decisions rest solely with us as developer.
""

And Pls note. That in no Part of the Feature list the Word Physics even Pops up *gg*


You dont Pay for this either.
You Pay for something you Receive later when the Game is Released.
And anyone who buys something like this is Invited to the Testing.

It isn't really possible to 'hate' Star Citizen. There isn't enough of it to merit such emotion.

Alone this Topic which is v5 apparently.
Proves you wrong over 1000 Times xD