To Fly in Open or Not - Is Ganking/Griefing Really That Bad?

[Vorxian]

Grief the griefer..

fly A rated shields in a cutter... menu log the very second you get interdicted.. which leaves the attacker approx 5 - 6 seconds to locate you, deploy weapons and strip some of the biggest shields in game.. not going to happen. AND even better, it's perfectly legal!

They fly off the rail, calling you a combat logger, griefer, report you to FDEV and you're safe knowing it's 100% legitimate gameplay

 

[thirstyfish]

Grief the griefer..

fly A rated shields in a cutter... menu log the very second you get interdicted.. which leaves the attacker approx 5 - 6 seconds to locate you, deploy weapons and strip some of the biggest shields in game.. not going to happen. AND even better, it's perfectly legal!

They fly off the rail, calling you a combat logger, griefer, report you to FDEV and you're safe knowing it's 100% legitimate gameplay

https://media.giphy.com/media/RHiD0K65NxxLO/giphy.gif

Yeah...because we all have access to and can afford a cutter. Right... (Sarcasm should be obvious).

 

[Lustan]

I simply don't play this game enough to be able to afford a single gank. I play may be a couple times a month and when I play it's because I want to do something specific in the game, and combat isn't it. I'm fine with NPC attacking as NPC's don't stack optimizations with the specific purpose of killing me as fast as possible. PVPr's do though since they have to in order to survive their own kind and their style of play. High wake escapes simply don't work against a max'd meta ship and people are more persistant than npcs.

I play in Mobius now. I would prefer open but I won't make the time for it. I suck too much at this game.

 

[CMDR GTR2014]

You refuse to see that this clearly is a grey area. Also, I cited Obsidian Ant and VJ because I share their viewpoints. I don't condone it, but I understand why it happens in SOME cases (please note the emphasis on some). The reason I mentioned them is because they have a lot more experience in this game, but they came to the same conclusion I did. The point was to show that I am not the only one with this point of view. Take a little time to consider why I included something in my argument. Yes, VJ and obsidian are people, but so are you. By your logic, all arguments are invalid because they are made by people. Guess what? people make arguments, its the nature of the beast. You can't dismiss an argument simply because a person made it.

With engineers, most players don't have a shot against heavily engineered PvP ships. The only way to stand a chance is to have a heavily engineered ship of your own, and the myriad threads elsewhere on the forums clearly show the pitfalls of that route (chemical manipulators, other hard/impossible to find things). There are times where the right choices aren't enough because the other ship massively out performs your own. I have 12 insurance claims in my almost 500 hours of gameplay. Of those, 8 are due to psycho killer commanders where I simply did not have a shot. I was doing every evasive action in the book and my FSD didn't have time to cool off even though I submitted to the interdiction. There is such a thing as a no-win scenario, and if you fail to recognize that, then you need more help than any of us here can provide, because you might be suffering from a serious break from reality.

Also, I have run into a genuine pirate a total of 2 times. Both cases were rather pleasant. A combat log is a surrender. The other ship disappears from your screen right? does it really matter if there is an explosion or not? Take the win and move on with your life. If you let someone who combat logs on you (assuming you are not being a [male appendage] about it) upset you that much, then that is on you at that point. You made the choice to let someone else's decision ruin your day. You can't control what the other person will do, but you can control how you react to it.

First, I was not ignoring Obsidian and VJ opinions i was just saying that their value is the same as both you and me , 1. Now Yeah i get there is no win scenarios, but even though part of the guilt lies with the player load out, as a pirate I've seen transport ships with not even a shield....

Chaff? Heat sink? Point defense? ECM?! these , even thought they are not internal slots and don't "occupy" their cargo space still VERY rare , i mean whats the point on having 3/4/6 utility mounts if you don't use it? will the extra 0.2Ly be much of a difference?

Every time i ask someone for what are their load out , most of them are D rated with lightweight hull no weapons or utilities mounts...

SO next time someone come to you or post here on the forum about being killed ask about his load out...

There's no need for engineering for survival against an attack, what they need is defenses and hi waking , thing that most people don't do they are greedier than me, and try to low wake and in the end they get killed for THEIR lack of preparations, being a ganker is not against the EULA or any rules in the game, different from the method of escaping....

Well in the end of this discussion I chose to make a video trying to show of a trader how to survive an encounter against a ganker or a pirate... even though my channel is about piracy...

Lets see how this experiment end up...

Also again Combat logging could be that for a ganker a win without an explosion, but for pirates means a ship that left without losing cargo!

 

[thirstyfish]

First, I was not ignoring Obsidian and VJ opinions i was just saying that their value is the same as both you and me , 1. Now Yeah i get there is no win scenarios, but even though part of the guilt lies with the player load out, as a pirate I've seen transport ships with not even a shield....

Chaff? Heat sink? Point defense? ECM?! these , even thought they are not internal slots and don't "occupy" their cargo space still VERY rare , i mean whats the point on having 3/4/6 utility mounts if you don't use it? will the extra 0.2Ly be much of a difference?

Every time i ask someone for what are their load out , most of them are D rated with lightweight hull no weapons or utilities mounts...

SO next time someone come to you or post here on the forum about being killed ask about his load out...

There's no need for engineering for survival against an attack, what they need is defenses and hi waking , thing that most people don't do they are greedier than me, and try to low wake and in the end they get killed for THEIR lack of preparations, being a ganker is not against the EULA or any rules in the game, different from the method of escaping....

Well in the end of this discussion I chose to make a video trying to show of a trader how to survive an encounter against a ganker or a pirate... even though my channel is about piracy...

Lets see how this experiment end up...

Also again Combat logging could be that for a ganker a win without an explosion, but for pirates means a ship that left without losing cargo!

I get that it isn't good for a pirate, but the pirates I have met in game and here on the forums aren't interested in killing the victim. The psycho players and gankers are the reason traders are so jumpy in open. I have no problem with someone having to combat log as a last resort against a ganker. I understand why. Also, in my experience, most gankers want to see that explosion because it means a rebuy screen for their victim. A combat log (or any log out) denies them that satisfaction. Please note that I am not saying that combat logging should be the first option. I am saying it should be the last option when dealing with a psychopath. I agree that using legit methods of evasion should be used whenever possible, but I understand the cases where those methods simply fall apart. Like when facing a wing of psychos (it does happen). If any of them have reverb cascade torps, then shields may not be enough. I have personally found ECMs to be fickle, I prefer PDs. However, PD turrets can miss or simple be unable to engage. If you have shields against a PvP ship, then you have lost the instant your shields go offline, and that can happen incredibly fast. Remember that hi waking still takes time, enough time for a ship to be destroyed.

Personally, I haven't had an issue with a psycho since the pre-Horizon days. It was a lot easier to deal with then. Engineer mods have merely made it easier for psychos to prey upon traders, noobs, and other people who don't want to deal with PvP combat.

As a side note, traders typically don't benefit from having weapons on their ships. especially if they are in any T-series vessel. And the traders who do have weapons, those weapons are for dealing with NPC pirates, not another player outfitted for PvP in a dedicated combat ship like the FDL.

 

[CMDR GTR2014]

I get that it isn't good for a pirate, but the pirates I have met in game and here on the forums aren't interested in killing the victim. The psycho players and gankers are the reason traders are so jumpy in open. I have no problem with someone having to combat log as a last resort against a ganker. I understand why. Also, in my experience, most gankers want to see that explosion because it means a rebuy screen for their victim. A combat log (or any log out) denies them that satisfaction. Please note that I am not saying that combat logging should be the first option. I am saying it should be the last option when dealing with a psychopath. I agree that using legit methods of evasion should be used whenever possible, but I understand the cases where those methods simply fall apart. Like when facing a wing of psychos (it does happen). If any of them have reverb cascade torps, then shields may not be enough. I have personally found ECMs to be fickle, I prefer PDs. However, PD turrets can miss or simple be unable to engage. If you have shields against a PvP ship, then you have lost the instant your shields go offline, and that can happen incredibly fast. Remember that hi waking still takes time, enough time for a ship to be destroyed.

Personally, I haven't had an issue with a psycho since the pre-Horizon days. It was a lot easier to deal with then. Engineer mods have merely made it easier for psychos to prey upon traders, noobs, and other people who don't want to deal with PvP combat.

As a side note, traders typically don't benefit from having weapons on their ships. especially if they are in any T-series vessel. And the traders who do have weapons, those weapons are for dealing with NPC pirates, not another player outfitted for PvP in a dedicated combat ship like the FDL.

you should start looking for some mines, there are one that stop engines and most gankers don't even care about mines hitting them..., and those already saved me against wing of 3 Cutters, and countless of BH looking for me...

 

[thirstyfish]

you should start looking for some mines, there are one that stop engines and most gankers don't even care about mines hitting them..., and those already saved me against wing of 3 Cutters, and countless of BH looking for me...

Ehh....I haven't found mines to be that great. I have given them a fair shake and found out I am not a big fan. Prior to 2.1 they were situational at best. In 2.1 they got a lot better, but now in 2.2 they seem to be back to where they were. At least from the forum posts I have seen about mines.

Also, I don't worry about gankers too much any more. I am not in open mode much these days.

 

[Dietger]

Mines, as they are now, won't help you much.
Engineers introduced PVP gear over PVE gear.* Widening the gap between players in OPEN, no other mode shows this weakness. How do deal with this?

Anyhow, any player not playing competitive? should have a fair chance against the grind engineering "seems" to be forced on everyone in OPEN. Donno how to change this, but as I see it, thats the thing you face now, trying this mode.






*
Its like a "stupid" MMO mechanic, say like in SWTOR; where PVP Gear tops PVE Gear in player versus player;

 

[Odan Brota]

Ganking possibly isn't so bad, but there's no point to playing in open.

Why play in open? For the player interaction? Mobius offers that with a much lower chance of murder hobos.

Why trade in open? Someone can steal your stuff. Just stick to solo where the AI is so braindead that it couldn't kill you even if you were outnumbered three to one.

Why REZ farm in open? People steal your kills, and you split profits with your wingmates. And in solo, you keep all your profits.

Why explore in open? Exploration ships aren't built for combat, you will get annihilated. In solo, you can just avoid the brain-dead AI.

Why do missions in open? You can't share them, so that's yet another aspect of the game better suited to solo play.

Why contribute to CGs in open? It's well known that griefers love CGs so they can kill people.

Why even attempt to protect noobies in Open? FDev can't implement a proper crime and punishment system anyway. And with instancing the way it is, and a lack of consequences for players, you're just wasting your time.

 

[Goose4291]

I think sometimes we look back on the 'golden era' of piracy in E and blaming its demise on the rise of the 'griefer' seems incorrect to me.

Have a look at the old threads. Legitimate piracy was regularly called griefing, people advocated the use of combat logging against it and would write massive tracts of text with emotive phrasing about how they were victims and comparing it to real world loss, and that old buzzphrase "this is why i fly in mobius".

The only difference now is that the majority arent asking for cargo. The response is still the same from the 'victims'.

Nb: Said as a predominantly open mode trader

 

[Exigeous]

I got ganked once this year, like 2 weeks ago. Someone in an FdL with a Clipper friend thought they'd interdict my Imperial Eagle. As if they were going to catch me.

I'm wondering if that was me and a friend. I almost always fly my FDL when I pirate and a friend has been joining me a bit in his Clipper. We've hunted in Sol mostly but recently in the system with the consumer technology commodity CG. When you say ganked, did the guys that grabbed you open fire or just try to get you to stop? I do remember a session when I and the Clipper were hunting and I was sorta teaching him the ropes. I remember saying something to him like "yeah, let's grab this Eagle - he won't have any cargo and even if he does we'll let him go anyway". Once we dropped in and I started chatting the Eagle became a very small dot in my vision as it pulled away like a freight train. I remember chatting with the pilot, asking him about his build and complimenting him on how amazingly fast it was, the fastest I've ever seen. If I remember right the conversation was rather friendly, no rude language or threats from either side. So was that me??? If so and you considered that a gank you have my apologies. If it was me what's your definition of a gank, do you consider simply getting interdicted a gank or do you agree that it's the shooting/killing after that is?


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I play in open to remind myself how toxic it is, better off sticking to solo / private groups.

Do you have any examples, what do you consider toxic behavior? I've never once seen anything I'd describe as toxic, even the couple times I was killed with no communication did I consider that toxic. As many have said open play is supposed to be dangerous, for almost all Open players that's part of the fun. If there was no risk of getting killed there would be no trill for me when I survive. I've never taken more than 1 or 2 shots from an NPC after an interdiction, it's more annoying than anything as I know I'll escape. With no threat there's no excitement so I just boost and jump. When a commander grabs me the excitement level, for me at least, goes through the roof. The few times I was killed afterward my heart was bounding and the adrenaline flowing big time. It was absolutely worth paying the rebuy, no question for me at least.


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But if i should avoid places where other players are, why not simply go to solo? What is the point of open if meeting other players is a bad thing?.

A great point, for me I don't avoid going anywhere in Open. For me there are only 3 reasons I'll go to solo/private


- Someone I'm playing with wants to go somewhere but insists on private
- I get killed by a commander at a POI that I still want to see. After getting killed I'll go in solo once I respawn
- I'm doing something like the 17 Draconis skimmer missions and don't want to worry about other commanders being there doing the same thing. Not because I'm fearful they might attack me, simply that I'm doing it to make money quickly and in solo you can earn money much faster (in this situation)


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More like I don't agree with them, and don't particulary care for the consequences; like I said, I would rather stop playing and delete my account than allow someone to pirate me, so being shadow-banned, or even regular-banned, over using combat logging to avoid piracy wouldn't bother me.

First you have every right to blow yourself up or otherwise fight back to keep your cargo. When I first starting playing the game and someone explained PvP piracy to me my gut reaction was "you can have my cargo when you pry it from my cold dead fingers". I absolutely understand tat sentiment which is why I never get upset or angry when someone shoots or runs. It's absolutely normal behavior and I find it extremely interesting to see all the different reactions I get. The only one that even slightly bothers me is combat logging. There is absolutely nothing a video game can do to upset me, etc. While combat logging bugs me I would never let it interfere with the fun I'm having as if I'm not having fun why am I still playing?


As for blatantly cheating in short you don't get to disagree with the rules. I ask again who are you to think you're somehow special and that you don't have to follow the rules just because you disagree with them? Let me explain it to you - you most certainly are NOT special. You are expected, just like the rest of us are, to follow the rules of the game you choose to play. I go back to my real world example since you like to relate something in a video game to a felony level crime. If you got pulled over for DUI and said to the cop/judge "I'm sorry, I don't agree that driving drunk is a bad thing so just let me go". You couldn't go to your boss and say "yeah, I know you asked me to do that but I disagree with it so I'm just not going to do it". I'm not sure if I/we can make this any more clear. If you disagree with the rules of something, from games to life, then you need to find something else to do. You clearly think piracy is terrible, which you have every right to think. You think cheating is perfectly acceptable, in fact you called it commendable. The HUGE difference here is piracy IS allowed and is part of the core game. Cheating it NOT allowed and is expressly forbidden. Again you have no right to selectively decide what rules you follow and what rules you don't.


I'm done trying to get this through to you - I absolutely agree with others that have said you need some serious form of mental health or evaluation. I'd bet my house that if you told a mental health professional that you feel playing a pirate in a space videogame was far worse than mugging someone in real life they'd recommend therapy, intense and lengthy therapy.


Oh and finally I am truly sorry to hear that you were mugged in real life. That must be a rather terrifying experience and I'm very sorry to hear that it happened to you. I've never been mugged before but something tells me that if I did I'd realize having someone threaten me with possible lethal force is VERY different from anything that could happen in a video game. Getting pirated in a game might cost me a little time to get back what was taken, getting mugged in real life might cost me my life. How someone could equate the two is absolutely beyond me.

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I've only a few dozen hours under my belt, but I've only ever played in Open. Never been bothered by another player (in fact I barely remember how to distinguish them from NPCs), and I've never left the main bubble (just a few jumps out still). Also, I only know about the common places like rich metal asteroid belts, etc, and I don't know any tricks about how to avoid common tactics like gravity slings or sun landing points or whatever. So for me griefing or unwanted PVP is a theoretical possibility, no more.

If you'd ever like to wing up so I can show you the ropes I'd be more than happy to do that, I really enjoy helping new players. As I'm a dirty pirate myself I can show you everything you'd need to know to fly safely in Open 99% of the time.

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.....there are times where it is a necessary evil, both obsidian ant and vindicator jones have posted videos about it, saying that they understand why it is used in SOME instances. Also, consider a combat log as basically a surrender. You won that fight. The only difference is that there was no explosion on your screen. Big whoop....


The Ad Hominem attacks came when you insulted his intelligence and called him a troll, you spent a lot of characters on those. If you had left those out, your argument would have been valid. You chose to attack him instead of his argument, at least for a little bit.


I will keep your wing up offer in mind. Thank you for that.

First just because popular Youtuber/Elite players like Ant and Jones say something that doesn't make it correct or true. Don't misunderstand I have respect for them both and really enjoy Ant's videos and how much he gives back to the community. While I somewhat agree about the notion of combat logging being okay in certain circumstances the fact is it's an exploit and Frontier has explicitly stated than using any exploit is a banable offense. If you're in a situation where you need to combat log your mistake wasn't made then - it was made many minutes/hours before when you decided to fly in open and put yourself at risk. Saying "I'm sorry officer I'm only speeding as I took the long way home but realized I'd be late because of it" absolutely wouldn't fly. While I agree there are many things in life that are in a gray area this isn't one of them. Exploiting isn't allowed. Combat logging is exploiting. Combat logging isn't allowed.


As for winning the fight if someone logs you're both right and wrong. If the intent is to let me win by surrendering then a player should use the self destruct feature, that's one of the reasons it's there. In many cases the reason to "win" the fight is so the player has to deal with the negative consequences of that. If I pirate someone and tell them over and over I'm not going to shoot, I just want to scan them (and I truly don't shoot as I don't), they open fire so I shoot back and they simply combat log so there are no repercussions for their actions then why allow players to shoot/kill other players in the first place. Being clear I'm not talking about gankers who just want to interdict and kill, while I'm adamantly against clogging at any time I can sorta understand wanting to clog when this happens. The issue is that people clog everywhere as there are no repercussions for it and as such behavior doesn't change. Let's say that if you clogged you lost $10M and you couldn't rebuy your ship, do you think clogging would be a problem then? Of course not, players would play much more carefully to make sure that didn't happen and would likely stop when interdicted by a pirate. I know that's an extreme example and one that the gankers make impossible to implement. It's just frustrating that players do this when the reality of getting killed already has very little repercussions. I get killed, I click rebuy, my fake/magical credit number gets lower and I'm back in my ship in the last station I docked in. Is that really so bad that you're saying cheating is justified to prevent it? That's where I think we disagree, for me that loss/etc. are absolutely no big deal.


As for calling someone a troll you're telling me that's not allowed? If not I'll absolutely play by the rules, as I've said no one here is so special that they can selectively follow the rules they like and not the ones they don't - and I'm absolutely not special enough to get to do that. However if you're going to admonish me for that I suggest you start reading more posts here as calling someone on the 'net a troll is one of the most common things that's done. I don't curse or use vulgar language, if using the word troll now falls into that category I guess political correctness wins again and I'll find another way to express what I feel are ridiculously dumb comments.


My offer to wing up is still on the table and is very genuine. While Elite doesn't have extensive multiplayer features I do greatly enjoy using the ones it has, now if instancing doesn't kill us....

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You refuse to see that this clearly is a grey area

That's because this isn't a gray area, combat logging IS exploiting. Exploiting is against the rules thus combat logging is against the rules. The rules don't state "you can't exploit the game in any way unless you have what you consider to be a good reason". Again I'm not saying ganking doesn't suck. But facts are facts, your personal opinion or view on them does not change them. In life there are many things that are very gray, hell I'll concede that a huge part of life revolves around gray areas. Cheating/exploiting in video games is not one of them. EXPLOITING IS CHEATING, COMBAT LOGGING IS EXPLOITING, COMBAT LOGGING IS CHEATING. These are facts no matter your opinion on the matter.


I in no way will defend a ganker or griefer for ganking or griefing. I will however defend their right to do so as long as that's done without exploiting the game. Breaking the rules isn't the solution, the solution is for Frontier to add game mechanics that address the problem.

 

[shadragon]

Open - Weeks of boredom followed by moments of sheer terror.

 

[thirstyfish]

I'm wondering if that was me and a friend. I almost always fly my FDL when I pirate and a friend has been joining me a bit in his Clipper. We've hunted in Sol mostly but recently in the system with the consumer technology commodity CG. When you say ganked, did the guys that grabbed you open fire or just try to get you to stop? I do remember a session when I and the Clipper were hunting and I was sorta teaching him the ropes. I remember saying something to him like "yeah, let's grab this Eagle - he won't have any cargo and even if he does we'll let him go anyway". Once we dropped in and I started chatting the Eagle became a very small dot in my vision as it pulled away like a freight train. I remember chatting with the pilot, asking him about his build and complimenting him on how amazingly fast it was, the fastest I've ever seen. If I remember right the conversation was rather friendly, no rude language or threats from either side. So was that me??? If so and you considered that a gank you have my apologies. If it was me what's your definition of a gank, do you consider simply getting interdicted a gank or do you agree that it's the shooting/killing after that is?


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Do you have any examples, what do you consider toxic behavior? I've never once seen anything I'd describe as toxic, even the couple times I was killed with no communication did I consider that toxic. As many have said open play is supposed to be dangerous, for almost all Open players that's part of the fun. If there was no risk of getting killed there would be no trill for me when I survive. I've never taken more than 1 or 2 shots from an NPC after an interdiction, it's more annoying than anything as I know I'll escape. With no threat there's no excitement so I just boost and jump. When a commander grabs me the excitement level, for me at least, goes through the roof. The few times I was killed afterward my heart was bounding and the adrenaline flowing big time. It was absolutely worth paying the rebuy, no question for me at least.


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A great point, for me I don't avoid going anywhere in Open. For me there are only 3 reasons I'll go to solo/private


- Someone I'm playing with wants to go somewhere but insists on private
- I get killed by a commander at a POI that I still want to see. After getting killed I'll go in solo once I respawn
- I'm doing something like the 17 Draconis skimmer missions and don't want to worry about other commanders being there doing the same thing. Not because I'm fearful they might attack me, simply that I'm doing it to make money quickly and in solo you can earn money much faster (in this situation)


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First you have every right to blow yourself up or otherwise fight back to keep your cargo. When I first starting playing the game and someone explained PvP piracy to me my gut reaction was "you can have my cargo when you pry it from my cold dead fingers". I absolutely understand tat sentiment which is why I never get upset or angry when someone shoots or runs. It's absolutely normal behavior and I find it extremely interesting to see all the different reactions I get. The only one that even slightly bothers me is combat logging. There is absolutely nothing a video game can do to upset me, etc. While combat logging bugs me I would never let it interfere with the fun I'm having as if I'm not having fun why am I still playing?


As for blatantly cheating in short you don't get to disagree with the rules. I ask again who are you to think you're somehow special and that you don't have to follow the rules just because you disagree with them? Let me explain it to you - you most certainly are NOT special. You are expected, just like the rest of us are, to follow the rules of the game you choose to play. I go back to my real world example since you like to relate something in a video game to a felony level crime. If you got pulled over for DUI and said to the cop/judge "I'm sorry, I don't agree that driving drunk is a bad thing so just let me go". You couldn't go to your boss and say "yeah, I know you asked me to do that but I disagree with it so I'm just not going to do it". I'm not sure if I/we can make this any more clear. If you disagree with the rules of something, from games to life, then you need to find something else to do. You clearly think piracy is terrible, which you have every right to think. You think cheating is perfectly acceptable, in fact you called it commendable. The HUGE difference here is piracy IS allowed and is part of the core game. Cheating it NOT allowed and is expressly forbidden. Again you have no right to selectively decide what rules you follow and what rules you don't.


I'm done trying to get this through to you - I absolutely agree with others that have said you need some serious form of mental health or evaluation. I'd bet my house that if you told a mental health professional that you feel playing a pirate in a space videogame was far worse than mugging someone in real life they'd recommend therapy, intense and lengthy therapy.


Oh and finally I am truly sorry to hear that you were mugged in real life. That must be a rather terrifying experience and I'm very sorry to hear that it happened to you. I've never been mugged before but something tells me that if I did I'd realize having someone threaten me with possible lethal force is VERY different from anything that could happen in a video game. Getting pirated in a game might cost me a little time to get back what was taken, getting mugged in real life might cost me my life. How someone could equate the two is absolutely beyond me.

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If you'd ever like to wing up so I can show you the ropes I'd be more than happy to do that, I really enjoy helping new players. As I'm a dirty pirate myself I can show you everything you'd need to know to fly safely in Open 99% of the time.

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First just because popular Youtuber/Elite players like Ant and Jones say something that doesn't make it correct or true. Don't misunderstand I have respect for them both and really enjoy Ant's videos and how much he gives back to the community. While I somewhat agree about the notion of combat logging being okay in certain circumstances the fact is it's an exploit and Frontier has explicitly stated than using any exploit is a banable offense. If you're in a situation where you need to combat log your mistake wasn't made then - it was made many minutes/hours before when you decided to fly in open and put yourself at risk. Saying "I'm sorry officer I'm only speeding as I took the long way home but realized I'd be late because of it" absolutely wouldn't fly. While I agree there are many things in life that are in a gray area this isn't one of them. Exploiting isn't allowed. Combat logging is exploiting. Combat logging isn't allowed.


As for winning the fight if someone logs you're both right and wrong. If the intent is to let me win by surrendering then a player should use the self destruct feature, that's one of the reasons it's there. In many cases the reason to "win" the fight is so the player has to deal with the negative consequences of that. If I pirate someone and tell them over and over I'm not going to shoot, I just want to scan them (and I truly don't shoot as I don't), they open fire so I shoot back and they simply combat log so there are no repercussions for their actions then why allow players to shoot/kill other players in the first place. Being clear I'm not talking about gankers who just want to interdict and kill, while I'm adamantly against clogging at any time I can sorta understand wanting to clog when this happens. The issue is that people clog everywhere as there are no repercussions for it and as such behavior doesn't change. Let's say that if you clogged you lost $10M and you couldn't rebuy your ship, do you think clogging would be a problem then? Of course not, players would play much more carefully to make sure that didn't happen and would likely stop when interdicted by a pirate. I know that's an extreme example and one that the gankers make impossible to implement. It's just frustrating that players do this when the reality of getting killed already has very little repercussions. I get killed, I click rebuy, my fake/magical credit number gets lower and I'm back in my ship in the last station I docked in. Is that really so bad that you're saying cheating is justified to prevent it? That's where I think we disagree, for me that loss/etc. are absolutely no big deal.


As for calling someone a troll you're telling me that's not allowed? If not I'll absolutely play by the rules, as I've said no one here is so special that they can selectively follow the rules they like and not the ones they don't - and I'm absolutely not special enough to get to do that. However if you're going to admonish me for that I suggest you start reading more posts here as calling someone on the 'net a troll is one of the most common things that's done. I don't curse or use vulgar language, if using the word troll now falls into that category I guess political correctness wins again and I'll find another way to express what I feel are ridiculously dumb comments.


My offer to wing up is still on the table and is very genuine. While Elite doesn't have extensive multiplayer features I do greatly enjoy using the ones it has, now if instancing doesn't kill us....

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That's because this isn't a gray area, combat logging IS exploiting. Exploiting is against the rules thus combat logging is against the rules. The rules don't state "you can't exploit the game in any way unless you have what you consider to be a good reason". Again I'm not saying ganking doesn't suck. But facts are facts, your personal opinion or view on them does not change them. In life there are many things that are very gray, hell I'll concede that a huge part of life revolves around gray areas. Cheating/exploiting in video games is not one of them. EXPLOITING IS CHEATING, COMBAT LOGGING IS EXPLOITING, COMBAT LOGGING IS CHEATING. These are facts no matter your opinion on the matter.


I in no way will defend a ganker or griefer for ganking or griefing. I will however defend their right to do so as long as that's done without exploiting the game. Breaking the rules isn't the solution, the solution is for Frontier to add game mechanics that address the problem.

Rules bend all the time. Frontier has admitted that they don't really pursue combat logging offenses. Besides, combat logging is merely a symptom of a disease and not the cause of it. People combat log because of a lack of a better option. I am not saying its right, because it clearly isn't. Until there is some better option for dealing with griefers/gankers, combat logging will continue. I am not going to claim to know how to solve this. For the time being, if someone Clogs on you, the best advice I can give is to recommend that you move on. You clearly won that fight, otherwise the Clog wouldn't have happened.

My issue with the name calling is because you began attacking the person and not the argument. It is a logical fallacy after all. Has nothing to do with political correctness. Has everything to do with crafting a sound and valid argument. Also, straw-man or ad hominem attacks are against the forum rules.

As for the wing up, and instancing issues...those of us in the mischief (a group of rats is called a mischief) consider instancing to be the only enemy truly worth defeating (until thargoids or something else comes along). If you find yourself in the fuelum area, let me know, maybe we can arrange something.

 

[CMDR GTR2014]

Ehh....I haven't found mines to be that great. I have given them a fair shake and found out I am not a big fan. Prior to 2.1 they were situational at best. In 2.1 they got a lot better, but now in 2.2 they seem to be back to where they were. At least from the forum posts I have seen about mines.

Also, I don't worry about gankers too much any more. I am not in open mode much these days.

take a loo at my channel before making any assumptions about mines...

 

[DarkWalker]

So if i play GTA 5 ,The fun in the game is the same of the real life? I should expect the police to come into my house because I'm a thief/murderer??

I get the feeling you are conflating action against NPCs and action against players.

I don't care about attacking NPCs, or about other players attacking the NPCs. They are there just for my (and yours, and every player's) enjoyment. Even if someone wants to slowly torture and kill a NPC in a very inhuman way, well, NPCs were never human (or even alive) in the first place.

Actions against players are a different thing. The very fact it's a living, breathing human being behind the character makes things completely different from dealing with a NPC.

BTW: GTA Online (the multiplayer part of GTA 5) freely allows players to enter "Passive Mode", rendering them completely immune to damage from other players at the cost of not being able to cause any damage themselves (and, if another player uses cheats or exploits to kill a Passive player, the killer has to pay the whole death penalty of the passive player he killed; not that the death penalty is in any way harsh, mind, as it was almost completely removed some time ago, and now it's only a small and fixed amount of cash). Seems like Rockstar coded one heck of an anti-griefing tool inside the game so as to limit negative player interactions.

---

Question: Can a person talking about someone career in-game be considered harassment?
Ex. I think piracy in game is equal to murdering in real life.

That is not what I said, mind. Rather, it is the feeling I get in the end from being stolen from in-game, the overall tone of the experience, that for me is roughly the same as being stolen from in real life.

Yes, this does mean that there's almost no chance I would ever be on friendly terms with anyone who pirates other players without making sure their target is enjoying the experience. No, I don't consider them criminals; despite the similarity in what I feel from the parallel situations, I'm fully aware that this is just a game. If I somehow made it seem otherwise, that was not my intent.

 

[Weps]

Well this is the first CG I attempted this year (as far as I remember) and wouldn't you know it... I'm again asking myself what I am doing playing this game.

3 runs:

First run, I arrive ok, no hostiles in sight.

Second run, I get pulled over by (what appeared to be) a genuine pirate, cargo demand macro and all, we have a nice chase, he's threatening, I'm answering back, he has various weapon effects, I get to use my utilities, I get to do a bit of silent running, I escape with no cargo loss and 96% hull. Overall fun experience.

Third run, I get pulled over by a wing of FDLs, I sense the danger and immediately prepare for high-waking, I escape with no cargo loss and 88% hull. No comms, no fingerquote "rock-paper-scissors", no entertainment. Predefined key pushing, all under 30 seconds. Yawn.

Ganking/Griefing in this game isn't just BAD, it's BORING. You get to have more fun with NPCs, at least they get to say "the rumors were true". I could go on and on about what FDEV are doing wrong, but what's the point....

 

[thirstyfish]

take a loo at my channel before making any assumptions about mines...

I don't need to go to your YT channel. I am not making assumptions. I have tried mines in the past. I don't care for them. I would rather save the weight so I can run faster and jump a little bit further. The times I have done a pure trading loadout, I never went shieldless. I used the beefiest shields I could, and used boosters. at least 2 pips to sys at all times. a few PDTs and decent evasion tactics make running from over 95% of all engagements pretty easy.

 

[Maelkhor]

As for blatantly cheating in short you don't get to disagree with the rules. I ask again who are you to think you're somehow special and that you don't have to follow the rules just because you disagree with them? Let me explain it to you - you most certainly are NOT special. You are expected, just like the rest of us are, to follow the rules of the game you choose to play. I go back to my real world example since you like to relate something in a video game to a felony level crime. If you got pulled over for DUI and said to the cop/judge "I'm sorry, I don't agree that driving drunk is a bad thing so just let me go". You couldn't go to your boss and say "yeah, I know you asked me to do that but I disagree with it so I'm just not going to do it". I'm not sure if I/we can make this any more clear. If you disagree with the rules of something, from games to life, then you need to find something else to do. You clearly think piracy is terrible, which you have every right to think. You think cheating is perfectly acceptable, in fact you called it commendable. The HUGE difference here is piracy IS allowed and is part of the core game. Cheating it NOT allowed and is expressly forbidden. Again you have no right to selectively decide what rules you follow and what rules you don't.

Well, in europe, during ww2 people who internally fought against the Axe after their country submitted were at the time doing so against the now law of there respective country, considered criminals and terrorist. Now they are called resistant and viewed as hero. The wining side decide, in the end, what's right or wrong.

Before anyone screams godwin point, it is not a comparison but an illustration I personnaly relate to by my scholar education. There are a lot of similar exemple were everyone would agree the then laws were insane and going against then is now retroactively judged legitimate by modern standard.

What I mean is rules are not intrassecally sacred, unfair, stupid rules law exists, and we can be gratefull people once fought agaisnt them. Otherwise slavery would still be the main labor resource, women would still be subhuman, etc.

I'm not saying it is the case for cloging, but that the argument "it is the official rule and you are not qualified to discuss it", as an universal rule, killed a lot of people in history...

IMO, As a general rule ( )Bad rules/laws deserve to be discussed. This is even the basic principle of democracy: discuss laws

-- edit -- I'm not writing this to start a debate but as a way to ask about taking some distance from absolutistic statment, as a general question for oneself "should absolutely all rules and law be absolute and forbiden to debate and act against?" You have 2 hours, do not copy on your comrades. If I see any smartphone i'll confiscate it.
--

Now back to this specific case, imo, cloging is bad, but is merely the symptom of something worse: the game is going nowhere good in term of players interaction, and the p2p network architecture is sadly showing how far it can goes, and the sole legitimate way to act against these is to go solo or mobius, or cringe uselessly in the forum...

Now i'm pretty sure the vast majority of pve cloger aren't doing so as a form of activism for fd to acknowledge player interaction mechanism are dull and need atention...

-- edited to avoid possible misinterpreting

 

[DarkWalker]

Now back to this specific case, imo, cloging is bad, but is merely the symptom of something worse: the game is going nowhere good in term of players interaction, and the p2p network architecture is showing how far it can goes...

The peer to peer architecture was simply never intended to prevent players from disconnecting from each other.

My guess is that Frontier thought everyone not playing Solo would enjoy the full range of social interaction, including the confrontational (PvP) kind, and thus never have a reason to combat log. They failed to notice that a (potentially very large) part of the player base wanted social interaction, but without the confrontational part (i.e., multiplayer PvE). So, now you have a lot of players that are using combat logging to play in Open and still get the PvP-free experience they wanted (and, in some cases, to "punish" those that attempt to push them into an unwanted PvP situation), a game architecture that was never meant to stop that, and Frontier possibly scared about harming the game if they ever try to enforce penalties for combat logging (as their previous warning, telling players to not combat log anymore, seem to have had absolutely no effect).

For those that say those players should be playing in Mobius: typically only about 10% of the player base ever seeks game forums. The vast majority of players likely never heard about Mobius, and without the group being advertised in-game by Frontier themselves never will. Which is part of the reason I consider Mobius a very lacking solution, even though it's the best one the players could possibly make without help from Frontier.

 

[Maelkhor]

The peer to peer architecture was simply never intended to prevent players from disconnecting from each other.

My guess is that Frontier thought everyone not playing Solo would enjoy the full range of social interaction, including the confrontational (PvP) kind, and thus never have a reason to combat log. They failed to notice that a (potentially very large) part of the player base wanted social interaction, but without the confrontational part (i.e., multiplayer PvE). So, now you have a lot of players that are using combat logging to play in Open and still get the PvP-free experience they wanted (and, in some cases, to "punish" those that attempt to push them into an unwanted PvP situation), a game architecture that was never meant to stop that, and Frontier possibly scared about harming the game if they ever try to enforce penalties for combat logging (as their previous warning, telling players to not combat log anymore, seem to have had absolutely no effect).

For those that say those players should be playing in Mobius: typically only about 10% of the player base ever seeks game forums. The vast majority of players likely never heard about Mobius, and without the group being advertised in-game by Frontier themselves never will. Which is part of the reason I consider Mobius a very lacking solution, even though it's the best one the players could possibly make without help from Frontier.

you nailed what I implied about p2p arcitecture implications perfectly