To Fly in Open or Not - Is Ganking/Griefing Really That Bad?

[[VR] Merkir]

CHEATING IS ALWAYS, *ALWAYS* FAR FAR WORSE THAN GRIEFING.

What rubbish. Your opinion isn't fact. Each person will make up their own mind whether griefing or combat logging is "worse", based on the specific situation, on a case by case basis.

The ED rules don't cover griefing, bad sportsmanship or antisocial behaviour, so I certainly won't be adhering to YOUR judgement of what's worse.

If I have people over to play a boardgame, and one person spitefully overturns the board because they find it fun to ruin others' enjoyment, guess what happens? They're BANNED from my house. But there are no rules in the boardgame about banning the person for such behaviour, just as there are no rules about griefing in ED. Social norms and etiquette generally prevent such behaviour IRL due to the consequences, but apparently because there are no consequences online, griefers and griefer apologists think they can justify their behaviour. Please stop trying to force your warped sense of right and wrong onto others.

 

[Maelkhor]

What they do not have a choice about is selectively following the rules they do like and ignoring the rules they don't. Tonight while pirating I had 2 Corvettes drop in while I was fighting with another FDL. I immediately stowed and started to charge as I didn't want to get destroyed by 2 Corvettes, ships that are much more powerful than I. Should I have been able to say "hey, that's not fair, I was fighting with that FDL, you don't get to join that fight" and somehow make my ship invulnerable to the Corvette? With @Maelkhor's logic I should, I don't think the Corvettes should have been able to join that fight so I should be able to cheat and make it so they can't shoot at me.

With @Maelkhor's logic, you wouldn't be in this situation at all, as you would be playing in solo/mobius, and if you were to be killed by unbalanced npc encounters, so be it.

My sole point was, griefing is worse, PARTICULARLY on an ETHICAL standpoint, PERIOD (i can caps too)
It means you are an A* and enjoy it, psychological studies shows it corelate to pshychopathic sadistic disorders.


If you've never griefed, feel free to not feel concerned, and you are right to say cheating is bad, just like the bounty hunter CMDR who pointed out how cloging is literally ruining his job, but griefers are not qualified to shame anyone, not even cheaters, they should better put there own house in order.

It's so nice to know that there are people out there with ethics and that understand that for the vast majority of things in life there are simple black and white, right and wrong answers.

Yeah... You quoted someone who pointed out multiple time than griefing in ED is fair and working as intended, and made him an ethical exemple to make your point. :/
Legit by games rules, working as intended (for now, I don't have the official FD pov about suicidewinder boutyreset and bumping in stations...), yes as a matter of fact they are legit, but ethical ? :facepalm:

Woah ! where did that come from? I say people must be off their rockers if they think I am going to play in open on a trip to Sag A* and back .. and you go into a rant about combat logging ??

Uh, what? Sorry, I'm not following you. I'll be clear as I guess I wasn't. Combat logging is breaking the rules, breaking the rules is cheating. There is no excuse or defensible position for cheating. If you're cheating in something, especially something like an online game, you should be banned from that game and not allowed to play it. Period. Black and white, end of story.

Is that more clear?

I've not checked rigorously and may be wrong, but I think CMDR Luniticisi has never ever mentioned anything about cloging in this thread, he was just saying he "play solo, period." and so he didn't understood why you would quote him and go all caps about cloging with him personnaly.

 

[Itaki]

GRIEFING IS NOT AGAINST THE RULES.
CHEATING IS ABSOLUTELY AGAINST THE RULES.
YOU ARE NOT SPECIAL, YOU DO NOT GET TO SELECTIVELY FOLLOW ONLY THE RULES YOU AGREE WITH.

CHEATING IS ALWAYS, *ALWAYS* FAR FAR WORSE THAN GRIEFING.

Those are the facts. These are simple black and white issues.

"Far far worse" is an opinion statement, not a fact.

Rules are irrelevant.

 

[Itaki]

It's so nice to know that there are people out there with ethics and that understand that for the vast majority of things in life there are simple black and white, right and wrong answers.

I feel the majority of things in life are not black and white, but on a sliding scale of gray.

 

[Necronaught]

Something is being done to get back at the gankers. I'll repost this here for those that might be inspired.

I hereby declare The Gank Saboteurs Association in operation.

The GSA consists of small autonomous groups of people all over the galaxy who carry out non violent direct action against gankers at community goals or Founders World. The main tactic is to put ourselves between the ganker and his victim. The underlying principle being to disrupt a day's ganking.

The guidelines are:

To interdict the ganker before he can abuse low ranked players.

To misdirect and interfere with the gankers hunt.

To make their ganking expensive, not in credits but time. (no amount of riches can cover the passing of time)

CMDR's who are honourable and who carry out actions according to the GSA
guidelines have the right to regard themselves as part of the GSA.

 

[Itaki]

It's so nice to know that there are people out there with ethics and that understand that for the vast majority of things in life there are simple black and white, right and wrong answers. Cheating is unethical, period. As you say it is absolutely indefensible. If someone thinks a rule in a game, a game they are choosing to play, is "wrong" they have the simple choice of not playing that game. What they do not have a choice about is selectively following the rules they do like and ignoring the rules they don't. Tonight while pirating I had 2 Corvettes drop in while I was fighting with another FDL. I immediately stowed and started to charge as I didn't want to get destroyed by 2 Corvettes, ships that are much more powerful than I. Should I have been able to say "hey, that's not fair, I was fighting with that FDL, you don't get to join that fight" and somehow make my ship invulnerable to the Corvette? With @Maelkhor's logic I should, I don't think the Corvettes should have been able to join that fight so I should be able to cheat and make it so they can't shoot at me.

It's amazing to me how much art/game is imitating life here. So many these days feel they can do whatever they want, that they can follow the rules they choose or agree with and simply ignore the ones they don't. These people will get a wake up call some day when they learn they absolutely are NOT special and the rules of whatever system or process is at play are applied to them just like they are to everyone else.

What amazes me the most is that someone would go on and on making up so much crap to try to justify or otherwise rationalize cheating. I just Googled the definition of cheating and how perfectly it applies here. act dishonestly or unfairly in order to gain an advantage, especially in a game or examination. If the rules of a game allow a player to kill another player then by definition that's part of the game. If those rules allow me to simply bother or otherwise annoy another player in a game again it is part of the game. If the rules say you CAN NOT do something, like combat logging, and you do that to gain advantage then you ARE CHEATING. There's no black and white here. There's no value judgement made on the behavior. If you act in a way that the game allows you aren't cheating. If you act in a way that the game does NOT allow then you are cheating. There's no gray. No interpretation. Nothing to debate or discuss. If you are cheating you are wrong. Cheating in any form is wrong, period.

Feel free to again do all you can to twist things to fit your argument. Have I cheated in solitaire, of course I have. Was that okay because it only affected me, NO, it was cheating and it was wrong. Have I used cheat codes in single player games, yup, done that too. Was it right, NO, it was WRONG. If you want to insert some gray here you could say that cheating in a solo game isn't as bad as cheating in a multiplayer game, yeah, okay I'd agree with that. But the reality is simple, cheating in any form IS WRONG. PERIOD. BLACK AND WHITE. WRONG.

I said I was done with this and I still posted this as I just can't stand people who think they are special, better than others or that they can selectively apply rules as they see fit. As I will never interact with you in any way, not in Elite and not in real life I no longer care. You can be as unethical as you'd like and justify that in any way you like.

- - - Updated - - -



Uh, what? Sorry, I'm not following you. I'll be clear as I guess I wasn't. Combat logging is breaking the rules, breaking the rules is cheating. There is no excuse or defensible position for cheating. If you're cheating in something, especially something like an online game, you should be banned from that game and not allowed to play it. Period. Black and white, end of story.

Is that more clear?

Posting definitions of words is an indicator of pedantry and obsession, imo.

 

[NeilF]

Ganking doesn't happen much generally, however at CGs or fresh new discoveries you can almost guarantee it.

That said, last weekend there were individuals at Shinrarta Dezhra interdicting any CMDR they could as soon at they arrived in the system, no doubt instantly attacking and destroying them for the glorious goal of giving themselves the satisfaction of another CMDR aggravated for no ingame reason... And about the same time there were also individuals at Jamesons memorial ramming other CMDRs coming in/out of the station... Again no doubt for some highly noble reason, which is in no way toxic to the community/game.

ps: These are probably the exact same people now desperately trying to badger FD to penalise combat logging so they can dish out even more grief even more effectively. God I hope FD ignores them.

A friend of mine was attacked while entering Shinrarta over the weekend. He arrived in his exploration Asp, and was immediately interdicted and attacked. I'm glad to say his "process died" befioe said idiot got his lolz...

TBH seems there's a concerted effort at the moment by some individuals/groups to grief this area. Hopefully they'll keep it up and frustrate more and more folks so FD actually do something after 2 years!

 

[Threeofseven]

I can report that at the current CG there were several very good cmdrs patrolling looking for griefers, telling anyone that needs assistance to call out on open comms. Any griefers there wouldn't be around very long.

 

[smiths121]

A friend of mine was attacked while entering Shinrarta over the weekend. He arrived in his exploration Asp, and was immediately interdicted and attacked. I'm glad to say his "process died" befioe said idiot got his lolz...

TBH seems there's a concerted effort at the moment by some individuals/groups to grief this area. Hopefully they'll keep it up and frustrate more and more folks so FD actually do something after 2 years!

Of all the systems to worry about - the Founder's World is probably low, of not last on my list! You have to be Elite or a Kickstarter backer to get access, so it is not like the people going their are defenseless. What is wrong with provate/solo if all you are doing is tweaking build or buying new ship? If I was a person that wanted "duels", grreat place to hang out as its fall of Elite veterans.

I have actually never been there, tell a lie, I have been there, escorting a mate to get a new ship - in case the idiots were out and about - as he was a crap shielded T-9 at the time. Asps are fairly easy to upgrade anywhere in the bubble, not sure I would risk going to the Founder's World for the discount. Disclaimer: Never flown anything bigger than a Python, so it maight change my mind for the really expensive stuff

Griefers have been at the Founder's System pretty much since 1.0 - why go there if there is no need? OK, if its your home system drive the griefters out. Generally do not get why people would go to a known griefer place in Open, and then be suprised if they are griefed.

To be fair your friend is not complaining!

Simon

 

[NeilF]

Of all the systems to worry about - the Founder's World is probably low, of not last on my list! You have to be Elite or a Kickstarter backer to get access, so it is not like the people going their are defenseless. What is wrong with provate/solo if all you are doing is tweaking build or buying new ship? If I was a person that wanted "duels", grreat place to hang out as its fall of Elite veterans.

I have actually never been there, tell a lie, I have been there, escorting a mate to get a new ship - in case the idiots were out and about - as he was a crap shielded T-9 at the time. Asps are fairly easy to upgrade anywhere in the bubble, not sure I would risk going to the Founder's World for the discount. Disclaimer: Never flown anything bigger than a Python, so it maight change my mind for the really expensive stuff

Griefers have been at the Founder's System pretty much since 1.0 - why go there if there is no need? OK, if its your home system drive the griefters out. Generally do not get why people would go to a known griefer place in Open, and then be suprised if they are griefed.

To be fair your friend is not complaining!

Simon

How is my friend "not complaining"? He wrote an email to me to express his frustration at how mindless/rediculous/pointless is was? And "voted" with his "kill process"...

IMHO I can't see any benefit to the game when players have little else to do as regard PvP than interdict and atatck CMDRs at random who I suspect generally are not interested in a fight at the time, yet alone outfitted for on. It's a sad reflection on the mechanics as a whole.


I'm sure there's been such activity since 1.0, but it seems to be growing in regularity, and there seems to be more at Shinrata these days. Personally I just think its frustration/boredom. ie: If you want PvP in the game, what path/avenue do you take? Sign up to Powerplay and undertake some tasks for military escort missions with a Wing of your friends, knowing in OPEN and Wing of enemy CMDRs may come in to attack you? Oh! You can't do that! Maybe just go and repeatedly interdict random CMDRs instead then, in the hope of some sort of a fight...

 

[Ken maddux]

I choose to fly in open. I have only been attacked by other CMDRs a few times . A wing of CMDRs came into my home res and started ramming me , telling me to leave . I waited outside the res and killed them when they left the res alone to get repairs. I enjoy the thrill and risk plus seeing other humans while flying in space is cool. If you need to go into a dangerous area bring back up. There are plenty of player groups on face book and other places you can join . Of course open is dangerous in some places but that is the name of the game.

 

[Luniticisi]

Uh, what? Sorry, I'm not following you. I'll be clear as I guess I wasn't. Combat logging is breaking the rules, breaking the rules is cheating. There is no excuse or defensible position for cheating. If you're cheating in something, especially something like an online game, you should be banned from that game and not allowed to play it. Period. Black and white, end of story.

Is that more clear?

What did the post of mine you quoted have to do with Combat Logging? .. That's what I am asking.
Because it seems for some reason you are suggesting that I combat log .. which I have never done and I have been playing since premium beta started.

 

[smiths121]

IMHO I can't see any benefit to the game when players have little else to do as regard PvP than interdict and atatck CMDRs at random who I suspect generally are not interested in a fight at the time, yet alone outfitted for on. It's a sad reflection on the mechanics as a whole.

I generally cannot understand your friend going in to the Founder's System in an exploration Asp and being annoyed or even surprised at the outcome. We were escorting non-combat ships there in my little group from June 2015 onwards, 2 month after we got together and started to get decent cash together. Griefers being in the system, ts not like its a new challenge.

Regardless of my game view, sorry you got an unpleasant email. My point was more a dig at how unpleasant and divided these forums have become, with proposals for combat logging involving bans, and proposals for C&P driving anyone that looks at another Commander in a funny way back to a sidewinder and owing the target several million on top. I generally do not find the divided community a good resource for C&P revisions, or punishment for cheating.

However, in terms of the bit I quoted form your post - hey we agree on something!

I was on the fence, but I think we Open-PvE mode is needed. PvP-only crowd cannot play nice in an environment made up of mostly PvErs, conversely the PvE-only crowd does not want to play in an environment that allows, and you could argue mechanically encourages PvP. The frustration leads to the seriously out of hand proposals from both sides. Better to split the community I think, so we can all get bakc to enjoying the game the way we want to play it.

We also need more Co-operative PvE content for both open-pve and open-pvp, base raids used to be good for this. The new mission system generated differently for each player, great for scaling risk/reward, lousy for co-operative missions. Given most of the griefer and gankers have end game ships, I think we need more structured PvP content for open-pvp as well. Competing CGs aka Lough are a good example. You can support a CG from any mode, but you can only actually oppose a CG in open (the blockadE). I quite enjoy running the gauntlet -but not for everyone.

Simon

 

[NeilF]

I generally cannot understand your friend going in to the Founder's System in an exploration Asp and being annoyed or even surprised at the outcome.

Sorry, you can't understand why my friend is frustrated by such needless/pointless destruction within the game? ie: His exploration Asp being interdicted simply to be blown apart?

Or, you can't understand why my friend was surprised that this sort of behaviour is taking place in OPEN?

I think it's a sad reflection on the current state of the game that we basically just take this mindless destruction as to be expected, rather than viewing it for a sign of how vapid and unbalanced the game infact is at the moment? ie: PvP is little more that random interdiction and destruction. And Crime and Punishment is basically non existant. Gank squads in Shinrata and what is detering them?

I was on the fence, but I think we Open-PvE mode is needed.

I think a PvE mode/flag in OPEN is not a good solution. The game can easily allow players to decide what they wish to (generally) encounter.

I think quite simply:-

1) The illegal destruction of any Pilots Federation member should result in a heavy penalty, potentially even of a ramping nature, such that doing it a couple of times means you won't do it again (from a cost/penalty point of view). What possible reason/benefit is there in the game allowing dedicated PvP ships to simply pluck other (non-wanted) CMDRs out of supercruise simply to blow them up? It's adds nothing to the game other than aggravation.

2) The game needs to offer interesting legal PvP scenarios/tasks. If you want to fight other CMDRs, then surely it's better if the game offers you interesting orchestrated means to do so, rather than flying around and interdicting other CMDRs at random, most of whom probably will not want to fight, yet alone be able to.

3) Flesh out piracy.

We also need more Co-operative PvE content for both open-pve and open-pvp, base raids used to be good for this.

The mechanics suggested in (2) above could equally benefit PvE orientated players.

eg: A new mechanic to protect a ship for a period of time which is being repaired:-
- In OPEN, while you and a Wing of friends/NPCs are defending it, a Wing of CMDRs/NPCs could be assigned to destroy it. (ie: Legal PvP).
- In SOLO/GROUP, while you and a Wing of friends/or NPC) are defending it, a Wing of NPCs could be assigned to destroy it.

And a number of such scenarios could be implements all of which could be used with Powerplay and CGs etc to permit easy to find legal PvP should you wish to participate. Further more these mechanics could be rebadged in various places. eg: For missions, and even for if/when the Thargoid finally arrive. eg: Defend a VIP ship under attack by Thargoids until they are repaired. Escort a convoy in normal flight from Nav Beacon A to B or ships evacuating civilians from a Settlement. etc...

 

[Exigeous]

I can report that at the current CG there were several very good cmdrs patrolling looking for griefers, telling anyone that needs assistance to call out on open comms. Any griefers there wouldn't be around very long.

I've actually spent about 8 hours total in system doing exactly this over the last day or so. A few times I was solo and a few I was winged up with other random commanders doing the same. It cost me about $40M total as I got sent to the rebuy screen 4 times but I didn't mind at all, I figured the time I spent tying up the gankers other commanders likely earned more than that in total. It was a fun way to have some combat and I do enjoy seeing highly engineered ships. I got crushed by a guy in a Orca with 5000 armor. He slammed into me when I had 1 ring of shields and I exploded instantly, it was a sight to see.

Posting definitions of words is an indicator of pedantry and obsession, imo.

You got me there, fantastic counter argument, impressive.
Fr

And "voted" with his "kill process"....

Justify it all you want but your friend exploited the game and cheated to not lose his ship/data/money/etc. I'll say it yet again as it seems some just can't understand simple truths. Interdicting and attacking a player, just like NPCs do all the time BTW, is NOT against the rules. Exploiting the game and combat logging IS against the rules and IS cheating. One is an absolute move. One is an absolute cheater. One should not be banned and one should. These are the rules and facts as Frontier has laid them out.

What did the post of mine you quoted have to do with Combat Logging? .. That's what I am asking.
Because it seems for some reason you are suggesting that I combat log .. which I have never done and I have been playing since premium beta started.

Sorry, you've lost me. There's been so much in this thread I can't keep it straight anymore. If you've never combat logged and I said or implied you did then I owe you an apology. I'm glad to hear you haven't, I'm glad to hear you're not a cheater. There are some in this thread and many who play that are. Players who cheat in multiplayer games should be banned, end of story.

...I think we Open-PvE mode is needed. PvP-only crowd cannot play nice in an environment made up of mostly PvErs, conversely the PvE-only crowd does not want to play in an environment that allows, and you could argue mechanically encourages PvP. The frustration leads to the seriously out of hand proposals from both sides. Better to split the community I think, so we can all get bakc to enjoying the game the way we want to play it.

This is probably the best, most level headed suggestion in the thread. We all know the extremes of any group are usually just that, extreme. I think a big part of the problem is that it's actually very rare to get interdicted and destroyed by another commander and as such when it happens it seems like something abnormal, something that shouldn't be allowed. All of a sudden something "random" happens and we lose X Y Z. Money, data, ship, etc. There are almost no threads complaining about NPCs killing players, sure there's a problem with the serial interdictions but no one is asking for that NPCs head like they are a commander. So when a commander does exactly what the NPCs do, just far better as they are a human and likely have a far better built and engineered ship all of a sudden people start crying about ganker this and doucher that. Opening fire on a ship, NPC or Human is a core game mechanic. It's just so rare that people forget that it is absolutely part of the game.

Frontier did a very smart thing when they added the 3 modes of play as without them people would either be screaming constantly or they would have left the game. Choice = good.

~X

 

[Snarfbuckle]

Of all the systems to worry about - the Founder's World is probably low, of not last on my list! You have to be Elite or a Kickstarter backer to get access, so it is not like the people going their are defenseless. What is wrong with provate/solo if all you are doing is tweaking build or buying new ship? If I was a person that wanted "duels", grreat place to hang out as its fall of Elite veterans.

Simon

First of all, just because someone is Elite status does not mean in any way that the players in question is interested in PVP just because they like OPEN. They might like to simply work TOGETHER with other players wihtout being RESTRICTED to GROUP play. It also does not mean everyone are flying around in cutting edge engineered combat ships, or for that matter it could be cutting edge trading ships that stand no chance against a fully pimped out FDL.

That said, here is my issue with these attacks.

Unwarranted mass murder and blatant attack on a member of the pilot federation is HEAVILY frowned upon by the pilot federation itself.

The system in question is THE HQ for the pilot federation and essentially a core world similar to Earth and Achenar.

It should be close to a death sentence to commit to an attack inside these systems due to their security and players should be wanted across the galaxy.

Also, there is no proper PVP in 90% of these attacks since the attacker usually have a far heavier and more dangerous ships than their target since these people VERY seldom attack someone of "equal" firepower.

 

[NeilF]

Justify it all you want but your friend exploited the game and cheated to not lose his ship/data/money/etc. I'll say it yet again as it seems some just can't understand simple truths. Interdicting and attacking a player, just like NPCs do all the time BTW, is NOT against the rules. Exploiting the game and combat logging IS against the rules and IS cheating. One is an absolute move. One is an absolute cheater. One should not be banned and one should. These are the rules and facts as Frontier has laid them out.

Actually I think I can actually say he didn't combat log to save his ship, data or money... I think he combat logged simply to deny a ganker from their "cynical reward"... And if everyone did this, and the gankers gave up... The game would be worse because?

And to clarify the matter, I see nothing noble, and "right" and defendable about someone in a dedicated combat ship, no doubt engineered up to the hilt, interdicting CMDRs simply to get a get (enjoyment) out of attempting to cause them frustration via mindless destruction? And let's make it as candid as we can... Why are these individuals not interdicting NPCs which are far more common place, and probably a more certain kill? We all know the answer of course, because they are not after a single in game reward but instead simply doing these mindless destructions for their out of game reward of knowing they've needlessly (hopefully) caused "grief" to another player. It's toxic pointless gameplay...


The solution is simple... Make the illegal destruction of any Pilots Federtion ship a serious matter. And finally, after 2+ years, ED should actually be offering intelligent (legal) PvP gameplay. Why can't I and a Wing of CMDRs undertake some task which (in OPEN) will pit us gainst a Wing of other CMDRs for legal PvP? Why is PvP in ED basically little more than interdicting other CMDRs who most likely have no interested in PvP at that moment, yet alone are even equipped for it.


IMHO - When after two years there's more effort going into coloured lasers than sorting out fundamentals like Crime and Punishment and actually populating the game with meaningful (PvP) mechanics, there's something very wrong with the game. And when some players seemingly support cynical pointless destruction done for no other reason than to garner enjoyment out of another players frustration, there's something very wrong with the community.

Frontier did a very smart thing when they added the 3 modes of play as without them people would either be screaming constantly or they would have left the game. Choice = good.

Actually I think creating OPEN and non-OPEN has created a crack through the game that can never be healed. Look at at everything from CGs to Powerplay, and consider how invisible players undermine so many other mechanics? A player group in Powerplay could try as hard as they can to achieve a goal/objective, but meanwhile a legion of "enemy" players duck into a far more effective SOLO mode (why not when it rewards you to do so), and the player group are undermined by an invisible fleet of other CMDRs.

Now steps can be made to help OPEN and non-OPEN live togethor, but in truth OPEN could be the ideal choice for all CMDRs if only mindless destruction (of Pilots Federation members) was penalised as you'd logically expect it to be, and even more importantly some actual interesting and rewarding PvP gameplay was introduced such that if a CMDR is interested in PvP, then need only undertake such (legal) PvP activities... Done!

 

[smiths121]

Sorry, you can't understand why my friend is frustrated by such needless/pointless destruction within the game? ie: His exploration Asp being interdicted simply to be blown apart?

Or, you can't understand why my friend was surprised that this sort of behaviour is taking place in OPEN?

The latter
Open has PvP, some places are safer than others. To get to the Founder's area you are either Elite -that means you have been around the block a few times, or you are a Kickstarter backer, so have been round the block a few more times. Either way , when considering risk/reward of going to Founder's system you need to take the risk of Gankers into consideration and plan accordingly. As I said we started escorting non-combat ships in open to the Founder's world in June 2015. I do not think you friend even though about it, as his solution was to pull the plug and send a snotty email to you. I generally do not understand what he was doing in open, and not sure I want to share open with him.

As I sure you know, the game has always had PvP in Open. There was a lot more unconsenting PvP before the big Bounty system change - 1K bounty on a sidwinder was considered fair game. Back then the baddies used to walk around with their multi-million credit bounties as a badge of pride. Now they just wash the bounty away with a Sidewinder.

I think it's a sad reflection on the current state of the game that we basically just take this mindless destruction as to be expected, rather than viewing it for a sign of how vapid and unbalanced the game infact is at the moment? ie: PvP is little more that random interdiction and destruction. And Crime and Punishment is basically non existant. Gank squads in Shinrata and what is detering them?

As I said it is better now than when the game launched. I think it is working as intended.

I think a PvE mode/flag in OPEN is not a good solution. The game can easily allow players to decide what they wish to (generally) encounter.

I think quite simply:-

1) The illegal destruction of any Pilots Federation member should result in a heavy penalty, potentially even of a ramping nature, such that doing it a couple of times means you won't do it again (from a cost/penalty point of view). What possible reason/benefit is there in the game allowing dedicated PvP ships to simply pluck other (non-wanted) CMDRs out of supercruise simply to blow them up? It's adds nothing to the game other than aggravation.

2) The game needs to offer interesting legal PvP scenarios/tasks. If you want to fight other CMDRs, then surely it's better if the game offers you interesting orchestrated means to do so, rather than flying around and interdicting other CMDRs at random, most of whom probably will not want to fight, yet alone be able to.

3) Flesh out piracy.

The mechanics suggested in (2) above could equally benefit PvE orientated players.

eg: A new mechanic to protect a ship for a period of time which is being repaired:-
- In OPEN, while you and a Wing of friends/NPCs are defending it, a Wing of CMDRs/NPCs could be assigned to destroy it. (ie: Legal PvP).
- In SOLO/GROUP, while you and a Wing of friends/or NPC) are defending it, a Wing of NPCs could be assigned to destroy it.

And a number of such scenarios could be implements all of which could be used with Powerplay and CGs etc to permit easy to find legal PvP should you wish to participate. Further more these mechanics could be rebadged in various places. eg: For missions, and even for if/when the Thargoid finally arrive. eg: Defend a VIP ship under attack by Thargoids until they are repaired. Escort a convoy in normal flight from Nav Beacon A to B or ships evacuating civilians from a Settlement. etc...

I agree with (2) and (3). I do not agree with (1).

Your point (1) rather stops the PvP-only crowd playing the game, unless that content is ultra-compelling, non-repetitive and continuous. It effectively replaces one set of alienated players (PvE only) from open, with another set (PvP only). As someone who like both, I can not agree changing the crowd that is alienated it is a better solution than splitting the modes.


Simon

 

[NeilF]

The latter
Open has PvP, some places are safer than others. To get to the Founder's area you are either Elite -that means you have been around the block a few times, or you are a Kickstarter backer, so have been round the block a few more times.

My friend used to play most of the time in SOLO. More recently he's been trying OPEN. Needless to say, after witnessing some pointless (cynical) ganking, he'll most likely just return to SOLO. And who can blame him.

The game is ignoring mindless destruction... It has no ingame purpose, yet the game does nothing to deter it. Why?

Personally, I think it's becoming and more common, given people getting more and more frustrated with the limited (non-existant) PvP gameplay. Add to this basically no penalty against it... why not do it?

I agree with (2) and (3). I do not agree with (1).

Your point (1) rather stops the PvP-only crowd playing the game, unless that content is ultra-compelling, non-repetitive and continuous. It effectively replaces one set of alienated players (PvE only) from open, with another set (PvP only). As someone who like both, I can not agree changing the crowd that is alienated it is a better solution than splitting the modes.


Simon

How does my (1) prevent the PvP crow playing the game, when all of my (2) was about actually offering something meaningful, more interesting and constructive to do via legal PvP mechanics. ie: Tasks/missions to specifically pit CMDRs agaisnt CMDRs if you so wish? All of which is clearly more graceful and surely interesting than randomly interdicting innocent CMDRs (most likely not interested in PvP at the time) and opening fire on them?

And of course, there would be nothing stopping CMDRs simply both turning off "Report Crime" and blowing the pee out of each other.


In short, offer easy to access, interesting legal PvP, and penalise mindless/pointless PvP illegal destruction. Seems simple and logical to me...

 

[Ralor]

The game is ignoring mindless destruction... It has no ingame purpose, yet the game does nothing to deter it. Why?

Couldn't agree more.

One big thing that really makes no sense to me about ED is the crime/punishment system. It makes no sense for gameplay or lore, if you really think about it. There have been improvements to it, but it's still a joke. 'Security' in a system is too slow and far too underwhelming to be at all worthwhile, and is frankly a joke. As mentioned on the forum here already, a modified FDL for example, outfitted for PVP spamming interdictions is going to top most ships it comes across, even those carting cargo with over 1000mj shields and 1500+ armor. The rebuy on the larger ships starts getting pretty awful when you think how many hours it takes to grind it, barring some mission stacking schemes that pop up. And the punishment for that is what, 6000cr? for murder? vs a rebuy of 20+ million cr... Balance/10. From what I remember of the lore, pilots federation likes to keep the pilots tenacious and blood thirsty, but frowns upon open crime like that, because what would be the point of having a loose association of pilots who are not controllable and murder without reason or thought? And if factions are expanding, investing and offering hundreds of thousands if not millions of credits as rewards for missions, they can dam well afford to maintain a standing navy to keep their assets and territory secure.

How about some serious repercussions for crime like that and making things incredibly risky and punishing to be doing crime like that in 'high security' and similar in 'medium security' systems. I'd love to see active patrols in these systems with fast and overwhelmingly violent action against pirates and criminals. I mean come on, NPCs and players robbing and murdering clean pilots in 'secure' systems is a massive joke and damaging for that systems reputation, and only welcomes more crime and anarchy. How about making the security systems much more secure and forcing out the pirates and criminals to low security and anarchy systems by significant force?

Open is not safe, and as much as I and many others enjoy multiplay with community goals and such, it's not worth the pain of rebuy when you know it might happen again in the next 10 minutes. Honestly many people who flame other CMDRs who are bringing this up are either the ones griefing or have never had to endure it. Anyway my apologies for the rant, but if we want to see some actual change and consideration for those issues, these things need to be said.

ps. It'd be interesting to see a vote for and against having more security and enforcement on crime in high and medium security space.