To Fly in Open or Not - Is Ganking/Griefing Really That Bad?

[pbloke]

I'm answering the question a bit late, but here I come.

First of all, griefing does not exist. This "term" was invented by fragile people who had to find a word other that "I'm stupid" to excuse the fact that they clicked on Open Play and faced PvP players in an open world where PvP is possible. If you don't want to take the risk of PvP interaction at any time, stay either in solo or private groupe, or assume the fact that you can be killed, in no case it's called griefing as you have to free choice to avoid these interactions thanks to both solo and group mode.

That's not answering the question that is offering your opinion to the matter, by the nature of your signature and comment above it I can tell that you chivalrous to a fault.
egg chicken, chicken egg, with the rebuy costs open will be empty space very soon, the intake of new players will drain out and existing players have high insurance premiums and avoid players of your mindset. Game over get BF1 out of its wrapper.

 

[Aigaion]

You clearly have never been on the receiving end of an FDL engineered to the nines and piloted by a psycho player, or maybe you say that because you are one. Either way, you make sweeping generalizations with no way to support your claim. Congratulations, you would be great a pseudo-science.

As you can see, I lost over 447 millions credits, of course, not all of them are PvP losses, but I can say without error that 90% of this sum is, counting loyal PvP fights, ganks, and free murders for nothing. So please, keep your for those who are interested about it. I have been in tons of situations where I got attacked for no reason at all, the last one was at a CG where I was trying to save a player without fuel (because I also sometimes play with the Fuel Rats), and my ASP got shot down for no reason. I didn't come to the forum crying and b*tching about how unfair the game is and how evil the bad players are, I just assumed the fact that I clicked on Open Play and that I can be shot down, nothing more. No need to be salty like you are and bring me your "psycho-player" bulls*it, if you don't want to be bothered, just stay in solo mode or go to the Mobius Group.

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Can we really not evisage actual PvP gameplay in ED where CMDRs fight other CMDRs for a purpose/reason/outcome?

Killing someone for fun is a reason itself. You may not understand it (or not be able to understand it in your case), but it's still something valid, as much as piracy is or war is. If you go to the grocery for some shopping, who can tell you that you won't be shot down by a madman for no reason ? Yet you are still going to go to the grocery shop. Apply the same for Elite: Dangerous and stop complaining, or like I said above, Solo mode and Mobius are perfect for people like you.

 

[NeilF]

Killing someone for fun is a reason itself. You may not understand it (or not be able to understand it in your case), but it's still something valid, as much as piracy is or war is. If you go to the grocery for some shopping, who can tell you that you won't be shot down by a madman for no reason ? Yet you are still going to go to the grocery shop. Apply the same for Elite: Dangerous and stop complaining, or like I said above, Solo mode and Mobius are perfect for people like you.

I play plenty of online games, and of course being victorious over another real player is rewarding. But let me paint you two scenarios.

Your fun
I'm in a dedicated combat ship and I interdict CMDR after CMDR who are simply going about other in game objectives, not set up with PvP loadouts (another poor design outcome), yet alone interested in PvP at the time. But I'll blow them up because (according to you) this is fun... And I'll do that over and over, cos (according to you) that's more fun. And I'll acrue a negligible penalty. Where as, all the CMDRs I've killed, have "suffered" far more.

This all of course in truth is for no in game reason... But (according to you) it's fun!

My fun
I undertake a task with a group of friends to go and defend a VIP in a ship which is being repaired. On arrival, another group of CMDRs arrive who have a mission to destroy that vessel. This is of course all legal combat, so not penalties/bounties ensue from any ships destroyed.

And we could sit here all day and come up with a bucket load of such "mechanics", and these orchestrated PvP tasks could take on all manner of shapes and forms, and not only offer gameplay for PvP but PvE too. ie: The above scenario should I not want to face "enemy CMDRs" could just as easily sent enemy NPCs!


Do you really see no difference between these approaches? Do you really think PvP where it's simply destroying another player for no in game reason, is beneficial or productive? And isn't actually doing more hard to the game and community than good?

Or to use a wiseman's analogy. If I go to the grocery store, I don't expect to be destroyed. However, if I willingly sign up for war, I do. And this is all achieved simply by heavily penalising illegal Pilots Federation destruction, and actually (finally) having the game offer some interesting/constructive orchestrated (legal) PvP. If you want PvP, undertake the approapriate activity... Done. Or is mindlessly interdicting unwilling CMDRs who can't even put up a fight somehow better for you?



ps: When "your fun" could be at the expense of someone else's, what makes "your fun" more valuable/important? Surely it would be better to fight against other CMDRs who want to fight and are capable of fighting?

 

[Sylow]

If you go to the grocery for some shopping, who can tell you that you won't be shot down by a madman for no reason ? Yet you are still going to go to the grocery shop. Apply the same for Elite: Dangerous and stop complaining, or like I said above, Solo mode and Mobius are perfect for people like you.

.
And this is what you fail to understand what the thread is about. How likely are you, if you go to the grocery shop, to be shot by a madman? And how likely is the same thing to happen in this game?
.
Once you figured that out, please also compare what would happen to the madman who shot you on your way to the grocery store, and what happens to the sociopath who keeps shooting people in open.
.

 

[thirstyfish]

http://puu.sh/sG53P/3b56967880.jpg

As you can see, I lost over 447 millions credits, of course, not all of them are PvP losses, but I can say without error that 90% of this sum is, counting loyal PvP fights, ganks, and free murders for nothing. So please, keep your for those who are interested about it. I have been in tons of situations where I got attacked for no reason at all, the last one was at a CG where I was trying to save a player without fuel (because I also sometimes play with the Fuel Rats), and my ASP got shot down for no reason. I didn't come to the forum crying and b*tching about how unfair the game is and how evil the bad players are, I just assumed the fact that I clicked on Open Play and that I can be shot down, nothing more. No need to be salty like you are and bring me your "psycho-player" bulls*it, if you don't want to be bothered, just stay in solo mode or go to the Mobius Group.

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Killing someone for fun is a reason itself. You may not understand it (or not be able to understand it in your case), but it's still something valid, as much as piracy is or war is. If you go to the grocery for some shopping, who can tell you that you won't be shot down by a madman for no reason ? Yet you are still going to go to the grocery shop. Apply the same for Elite: Dangerous and stop complaining, or like I said above, Solo mode and Mobius are perfect for people like you.

This. This is the problem a lot of people are having, especially with players like you. You have the ego to believe that you are so above it all and that you have the right or the authority to speak down to everyone else. Careful on that high horse there, because you might fall off. Players who don't care for PvP encounters shouldn't be forced to mobius or solo mode. Every other game with a MMO aspect to it has taken this into account. Why should ED be held to a lower standard? A lot of us aren't complaining about the players, but rather Fdev's lack of thought and effort on the matter. Telling people things like "this isn't for you," "git gud," "Its elite Dangerous," or anything of that sort can be simplified down to "my way or the highway" logic. For a game that is supposed to be about choice, there are some areas where a lot of players don't get a choice. Mobius is a band-aid, not a permanent solution. It has its fair share of flaws (One guy having to manage two player groups each with thousands of members, alt accounts from people with SDC and SDC type groups sneaking in, etc). Mobius is the best fix that the players can come up with using the tools that FD has given us. It kinda works, but kinda doesn't. Much of our frustration is due to the fact that Fdev has seen fit to come out with ship kits, colored weapons, bobbleheads, and engineers while ignoring a glaring problem that has been in place for a while. I don't give a rip about the number of insurance claims that you have, or anything else about you for that matter. What I do care about is the frequent callousness I see on the forums to a very real issue. The Mobius groups, yes plural, because PGs have limits on sizes, have thousands of players on the roster. The only way to find out is pretty much through these forums or on Reddit. Considering that 10-20% of people who have ever played this game end up on the forums, you do the math. A solution to these cases of cyber bullying/harassment would benefit a significant number of Fdev's customers. Other peoples choices matter, not just your own. Maybe if you have bothered to read some of my earlier posts on this thread, you would know that this is the point many people, myself included, have been making.

 

[kofeyh]

I play plenty of online games, and of course being victorious over another real player is rewarding. But let me paint you two scenarios.

Your fun
I'm in a dedicated combat ship and I interdict CMDR after CMDR who are simply going about other in game objectives, not set up with PvP loadouts (another poor design outcome), yet alone interested in PvP at the time. But I'll blow them up because (according to you) this is fun... And I'll do that over and over, cos (according to you) that's more fun. And I'll acrue a negligible penalty. Where as, all the CMDRs I've killed, have "suffered" far more.

This all of course in truth is for no in game reason... But (according to you) it's fun!

My fun
I undertake a task with a group of friends to go and defend a VIP in a ship which is being repaired. On arrival, another group of CMDRs arrive who have a mission to destroy that vessel. This is of course all legal combat, so not penalties/bounties ensue from any ships destroyed.

And we could sit here all day and come up with a bucket load of such "mechanics". And these orchestrated PvP tasks could take on all manner of shapes and forms, and not only offer gameplay for PvP but PvE too. ie: The above scenario should I not want to face "enemy CMDRs" could just as easily sent enemy NPCs!


Do you really see no different between these approaches? Do you really think PvP where it's simply destroying another player for no in game reason, is beneficial or productive? And isn't actually doing more hard to the game and community than good?

Neil. Friend. The problem isn't the other commanders. It doesn't matter whether you agree with their behaviour or not

What matters is that the game manages engagements in a consistent and logical manner. The law is represented as a scale, a measure. It's not a moral compass. Or ethical gauge.

Your questions are like asking a sociopath to empathise. It's an irrelevant question. The law has to work in spite of a moral compass. Because they vary. And retribution is not the cure. Neither is abolition.

This is why laws built on logic and consistency of application are important. Because the game cannot police laws based on context and morals. Only logical application of response to action. Laws are needed. They must be universal and apply equally to all regardless of moral or ethical concern.

They don't. The system is broken. It needs fixing. Because Morals vary. Ethics can be compromised. It's not your fellow commanders that are the problem. They are at worst a symptom. It's the system that's broken. And it's the system that must be fixed.

If all people can do is blame each other, then there will never be improvement. And nothing will change.

You will all be shouting past each other in two years time. If most haven't left by then.

 

[Weps]

If you go to the grocery for some shopping, who can tell you that you won't be shot down by a madman for no reason ? Yet you are still going to go to the grocery shop. Apply the same for Elite: Dangerous and stop complaining, or like I said above, Solo mode and Mobius are perfect for people like you.

You really think the society model from Elite resembles real life in any way or are you just trolling? Have you ever heard of crime prevention? Even regular people have the tendency to call the cops is someone else looks at them funny while on the staircase. Sure there's a lot of sick sh*t going on the world but in no way does it resemble the generalized irrationality currently going on in Elite.

As for killing players in itself being fun for some players, yeah, that may be true, but I'd venture a guess that's a very small subset of players. Bottom line is the majority of players bought this game expecting, if not a believable sci fi universe, at least a logical one, with multiplayer. And they haven't received it yet.

 

[Snarfbuckle]

http://puu.sh/sG53P/3b56967880.jpg

Killing someone for fun is a reason itself. You may not understand it (or not be able to understand it in your case), but it's still something valid, as much as piracy is or war is. If you go to the grocery for some shopping, who can tell you that you won't be shot down by a madman for no reason ? Yet you are still going to go to the grocery shop. Apply the same for Elite: Dangerous and stop complaining, or like I said above, Solo mode and Mobius are perfect for people like you.

The difference here between your example and Elite is that in reality the madman shooting me would be hunted by the police, incarcerated or shot and killed. Or at best (for him) manage to flee the country for fear of being arrested.

If the above would be added to open it would become a lot more interesting to be a criminal.

 

[Aigaion]

Players who don't care for PvP encounters shouldn't be forced to mobius or solo mode.

They shouldn't and they are not. But at the second people click on "Open-Play", they face the fact that they can be shot by someone else, for a valid reason or not makes no difference. So it doesn't bother me that people don't want PvP interactions, what bothers me are salty people crying on the forum because they're space junk got blasted in open-play.

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The difference here between your example and Elite is that in reality the madman shooting me would be hunted by the police, incarcerated or shot and killed. Or at best (for him) manage to flee the country for fear of being arrested.

If the above would be added to open it would become a lot more interesting to be a criminal.

For your information, I, as a pirate, am wanted in many systems, and therefor am chased by Elite PNCs that are after my bounty, just so you know what's really going on on the other side and not just what you suppose is going on.

 

[NeilF]

Neil. Friend. The problem isn't the other commanders. It doesn't matter whether you agree with their behaviour or not

What matters is that the game manages engagements in a consistent and logical manner. The law is represented as a scale, a measure. It's not a moral compass. Or ethical gauge.

It's like asking a sociopath to empathise. It's an irrelevant question. The law has to work in spite of a moral compass. Because they vary.

And this is why laws built on logic and consistency of application are important. Because the game cannot police laws based on context and morals. Only logical application of response to action. Laws are needed. They must be universal and apply equally to all regardless of moral or ethical concern.

They don't. The system is broken. It needs fixing. Because Morals vary. Ethics can be compromised. It's not your fellow commanders that are the problem. They are at worst a symptom. It's the system that's broken. And it's the system that must be fixed.

Sorry... Don't follow?

IMHO at the moment, the game is simply letting CMDR interdict and destroy other CMDRs who are not interested in a fight or even capable of a fight, for no in game reason/purpose, and at no real penalty for such behaviour? This just seems utterly bonkers?

I suspect half the reason for this is this basically is all PvP can be in ED as there are no orchestrated mechanics in effect. ie: How can I easily undertake a task to pit me against other CMDRs should I wish? I can't! Powerplay was a half cocked atttempt to acheive this, but it's a failed mess.

So - if I understand you - I think you're agreeing with me? That the game needs to bring in penalties to penalise unwanted behaviour? And surely interdicting other CMDRs for no ingame reason just to blow them up, falls into this category?


It seems such a shame to me with all this toing and froing about this topic, people seem to miss the fact that the game, which is two years old now, is still not offering anything approaching sensible PvP mechanics? Randomly interdicting other players in the hope of a fight? Is that it? Is that what PvP should be? Really?

 

[thirstyfish]

They shouldn't and they are not. But at the second people click on "Open-Play", they face the fact that they can be shot by someone else, for a valid reason or not makes no difference. So it doesn't bother me that people don't want PvP interactions, what bothers me are salty people crying on the forum because they're space junk got blasted in open-play.

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For your information, I, as a pirate, am wanted in many systems, and therefor am chased by Elite PNCs that are after my bounty, just so you know what's really going on on the other side and not just what you suppose is going on.

Yes, they kinda are. Mobius is not a permanent solution for people who want to interact with other players but not deal with PvP. Same goes for solo mode.

 

[Aigaion]

Yes, they kinda are. Mobius is not a permanent solution for people who want to interact with other players but not deal with PvP. Same goes for solo mode.

Not my problem. That's how the game goes. People are not asking me if I'm okay with the fact that my next target is going to combat log in front of me.

 

[thirstyfish]

Not my problem. That's how the game goes. People are not asking me if I'm okay with the fact that my next target is going to combat log in front of me.

Then why did you bother chiming in? You should have noticed that this thread took a bit of a tangent. Just because something isn't your problem doesn't mean that it should be ignored. Just because that is the way the game is right now doesn't mean that it shouldn't be addressed. Dear god you are short-sighted and self-centered. News flash: the world does not revolve around you, other people's viewpoints and opinions are easily as valid as your own.

 

[Aigaion]

Then why did you bother chiming in? You should have noticed that this thread took a bit of a tangent. Just because something isn't your problem doesn't mean that it should be ignored. Just because that is the way the game is right now doesn't mean that it shouldn't be addressed. Dear god you are short-sighted and self-centered. News flash: the world does not revolve around you, other people's viewpoints and opinions are easily as valid as your own.

I'm a pirate, what did you think ? That i give half my fortune to Care 4 Aisling ? Get your stuff together mate.

 

[thirstyfish]

I'm a pirate, what did you think ? That i give half my fortune to Care 4 Aisling ? Get your stuff together mate.

way to act like a stereotypical millennial. can't be bothered to look beyond the end of your nose. I don't really care if you are a pirate, not one bit. Haven't heard of you before this thread, and I'll probably forget that you even exist with a day or so. That is how little you matter.

Who are you again? Oh...right, don't care because you don't matter.

 

[TERMINATRIXXX]

I just want to share my latest experience.
Usually i dont care much for CG's but since the North Ring station is pretty close i delievered about 600t gold and see whats going on there.
My 1. and 2. run, i didnt even saw any other player, but in my 3. delievery i logged out while docked, logged in and boom...about 10 other commanders.
Couple of ASP, Cutters, FDL and a Keelback.
Just messaged to all: Hey people. Everyone responded nicely....i just asked for a meeting outside the station for a snapshot. One guy with a fully combat modified FDL (with a bounty on his head) was patroling outside the station. He said he keep an eye open for potential attackers.
Everyone was cool and we had a nice communication made a couple of snapshots and a video.
So far, i've never really get why people just saying Open is a griefing hell....it isn't.
The only time i had a couple of rebuys due destroy by other commanders was the CG with handing in bounty vouchers at a specific station, everyone was killing everyone but it was a hell lot of fun.

 

[Aigaion]

way to act like a stereotypical millennial. can't be bothered to look beyond the end of your nose. I don't really care if you are a pirate, not one bit. Haven't heard of you before this thread, and I'll probably forget that you even exist with a day or so. That is how little you matter.

Dude, you should really take a break , you are way too stressed for a game, now I understand the salt and the fart.

 

[kofeyh]

Sorry... Don't follow?

IMHO at the moment, the game is simply letting CMDR interdict and destroy other CMDRs who are not interested in a fight or even capable of a fight, for no in game reason/purpose, and at no real penalty for such behaviour? This just seems utterly bonkers?

I suspect half the reason for this is this basically is all PvP can be in ED as there are no orchestrated mechanics in effect. ie: How can I easily undertake a task to pit me against other CMDRs should I wish? I can't! Powerplay was a half cocked atttempt to acheive this, but it's a failed mess.

So - if I understand you - I think you're agreeing with me? That the game needs to bring in penalties to penalise unwanted behaviour? And surely interdicting other CMDRs for no ingame reason just to blow them up, falls into this category?


It seems such a shame to me with all this toing and froing about this topic, people seem to miss the fact that the game, which is two years old now, is still not offering anything approaching sensible PvP mechanics? Randomly interdicting other players in the hope of a fight? Is that it? Is that what PvP should be? Really?

No. I don't agree with you. Because you are trying to apply universal moral code rather than universal criminal code. Morals and emotions are wonderful. But they have no place being a replacement for a logical and consistent criminal code.

I don't care if you can or cannot comprehend someone shooting at someone else. I don't care if you agree or disagree with that.

As long as laws are constructed that reflect the crime and apply universally, so that all commanders know where they stand, regardless of moral or ethical alignment? It actually doesn't have to matter. This means much like a speed limit, it does not matter if you are a law abiding citizen, or a homicidal maniac; the same laws apply.

The problem I have is that people just want to flatly punish PVP people for having the temerity to shoot at other commanders. Despite this being advertised as part of the game.

Laws need to be just and logical and able to be applied by a system that has no ability to apply human morals or ethics or even context. AI cannot deal with context well. Not should it. As long as laws are consistent and logical and global, commanders who repeatedly flout them should expect stiff penalty.

As should commanders who flout laws believing they clearly are above them. Like collision causing death from speeding. You'd be surprised how many law abiding commanders who never ever would dream of shooting another commander will endlessly break that one and then complain bitterly about the law.

Because the reality is, we both know that at this point it's mostly about just punish people based purely on moral compass alone. Which ignores that there are instances where commander combat is legitimate and not against the law; such as commander's with a wanted status, Anarchy systems and so on.

I will always champion logic and consistency because it's the only thing that can ever actually be done universally with any reliability.

 

[Weps]

Just messaged to all: Hey people. Everyone responded nicely....i just asked for a meeting outside the station for a snapshot. One guy with a fully combat modified FDL (with a bounty on his head) was patroling outside the station. He said he keep an eye open for potential attackers.
Everyone was cool and we had a nice communication made a couple of snapshots and a video.

What a nice story.

Quick question: PC or Xbox?

 

[CMDR Zadian Lichtfrost]

I'm a pirate, …

You are a player of a game, pretending to be a pirate in the game.

For Open Mode to work the players need to cooperate, work together to make the pretend game world work. By players I mean the human behind the computer, not their avatar (CMDR) in the game.

The CMDRs obviously don't need to cooperate.

Players need to cooperate by clicking on Open Mode in the menu. Willing to accept hostile interaction between their CMDRs. If players who want to play a role that is hostile to most other CMDRs in the game, then those players would be wise not to drive other players out of Open Mode.