"Keep It Simple, Stupid" – David Braben on Added Value Services

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SuperG

S
Thargon said:
Nice, and what happens when your internet connection dies? Oh, you can't play you say? Hmm DRM needed to unlock the game. Can't play you say? This is the achilles heel of DRM, and hence why I hate it.
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I don't see the problem. People have more reaons why the cant playlike other resposibility and stuff to do. Like a wife or girl friend wich don't like them gaming. Also if electric net go down there is no playing at all. It happens.

Like with servers downtime we want that on zero. But that not realistic. So if ISP is down well then I do something else. It is rarely the case.

But in my case I plug the inet of down LAN to the other LAN. Because I have kabel inet and VSDL inet. Both had a down time of a few days. But not at te same time. Wenn one isp inet dies, I use the other. In the past I had dual wan router with kabel and ADSL. Did not even notice if one isp was down.

Also the game service can go down. Not a problem at all. I won't expect zero uptime. Wenn PSN was hacked. We got PC game rigs xbox and wii to game on. PSN have also down time for maintenance.

Also I got Vita so I can Play offline and mobile.

Also if you game you need inet. To get the full experience.

A online gaming.
B patches
C DLC
D exclusive digital distributed games, wich is large part of the indiscene.
C mod scene.

People speak only about always online as a con. Well I see the con and pro.
So for me its more compromise people take, in my case the pro outweight the cons. Then cons we know because that what people mostly whine about, but not the pro.

Well game is up to date with latest bugfixes and feature, if platform is in standby mode also online. Wenn DLC and the shared update comes online it is dl and installed in standby mode. So more the feel of instant gaming then waiting on install of new game dlc and patches. No dsk jocking.

So I see the positive part off the choices of the nextgen consoles always on & online features.
 

Thargon

Thargon
SuperG said:
I don't see the problem. People have more reaons why the cant playlike other resposibility and stuff to do. Like a wife or girl friend wich don't like them gaming. Also if electric net go down there is no playing at all. It happens.

Like with servers downtime we want that on zero. But that not realistic. So if ISP is down well then I do something else. It is rarely the case.

But in my case I plug the inet of down LAN to the other LAN. Because I have kabel inet and VSDL inet. Both had a down time of a few days. But not at te same time. Wenn one isp inet dies, I use the other. In the past I had dual wan router with kabel and ADSL. Did not even notice if one isp was down.

Also the game service can go down. Not a problem at all. I won't expect zero uptime. Wenn PSN was hacked. We got PC game rigs xbox and wii to game on. PSN have also down time for maintenance.

Also I got Vita so I can Play offline and mobile.

Also if you game you need inet. To get the full experience.

A online gaming.
B patches
C DLC
D exclusive digital distributed games, wich is large part of the indiscene.
C mod scene.

People speak only about always online as a con. Well I see the con and pro.
So for me its more compromise people take, in my case the pro outweight the cons. Then cons we know because that what people mostly whine about, but not the pro.

Well game is up to date with latest bugfixes and feature, if platform is in standby mode also online. Wenn DLC and the shared update comes online it is dl and installed in standby mode. So more the feel of instant gaming then waiting on install of new game dlc and patches. No dsk jocking.

So I see the positive part off the choices of the nextgen consoles always on & online features.
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Oh and did I mention the lengthy syncing of files? And the attempt of Steam to patch a game that is currently synching and hereby corrupting the files? Not everyone has a good internet connection nowadays - so it's not one size that fits all.
 

Ryuto

Ryuto
I've never had any like for DRM at all. I feel that it does nothing but harm the industry with how it restricts things on several levels. I remember a time when I could just bring something over to a friend's house to play and show it to them just as easily as I could at home. I remember getting friends addicted to games like Elite, Frontier, Wing Commander and many others in that way. Now the systems of control are just so ridiculous that they take away from the games themselves as has been shown with what happened with the Sim City debacle some months ago.
 

Riandor

Riandor
Thargon said:
Oh and did I mention the lengthy syncing of files? And the attempt of Steam to patch a game that is currently synching and hereby corrupting the files? Not everyone has a good internet connection nowadays - so it's not one size that fits all.
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Well as an avid PC gamer and user of Steam, Diablo 3 and Sim City... I can say in my experience the down side of always online is greatly exaggerated.

Now i will say i live in an area of Germany that has great internet connection, i can download any game in a matter of an hour or two and my service so far in over a year has never been down for more than 5 or 10 mins.

Games such as Diablo 3 and Sim City had issues upon release but shortly afterwards worked fine.

I am fortunate maybe, i accept that others have more issues with internet or work/ live in areas without internet (oil platforms for example).

My games on steam are always up to date with minimal waiting time.

It clearly isn't perfect for everyone, but there are pros as well as cons and these should be discussed as well.
 

psykokow

psykokow
I do not remember the last PC game I bought in a shop..

Saying that.. I cant find a shop that stocks PC games... even Game has shrunk its PC section again and again and again..

Now its a small section next to the DS range.

Shocking...

I LOVE BIG BOX PC games.... but I also love downloading the game and not having to hunt around to find it.

I love steam, it has given me so much joy to try little games on the weekends they are free... I have then go on to bigger games.

now MICROSOFT please SORT your PC Game marketplace out.. (sorry if they have)
 

nicomak

nicomak
psykokow said:
I do not remember the last PC game I bought in a shop..

Saying that.. I cant find a shop that stocks PC games... even Game has shrunk its PC section again and again and again..

Now its a small section next to the DS range.

Shocking...

I LOVE BIG BOX PC games.... but I also love downloading the game and not having to hunt around to find it.

I love steam, it has given me so much joy to try little games on the weekends they are free... I have then go on to bigger games.
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it reminds me of the way amiga games section became smaller and smaller with time, and now it's the same with pc, but at least it's not due to a lack of new pc games.

boxes were nice, especially when they werent those plastic things which sometimes only contain one small paper note with a code on it for download, no cd, no manual... i suppose on an ecologic pov it's better(except making such a big box for that is kind of silly), but i will always miss those big boxes with those manuals and sometimes "goodies" like a star map or novels:D. they took some space though!
 

Thargon

Thargon
Thing is, even though I am a Steam user, and I accept it's a good way of distributing games you will note how Steam as a platform is trying to do away with PC games. You will note how they are moving away from PC gaming as a whole to promoting their own hardware OS platform and linux games.

Oh this is a good thing I hear you say? Hmm I'm not so sure. It's muddying the waters as far as I can see. I'm sure I'm going totally off OP topic here, but this is where the thread discussion has gone.

As for last time I bought a game in the shop - It's been a while, and yes, GAME has gone downhill rapidly. There used to be a sizable PC games area, but its now largely dominated by 2nd hand console games for trade. Why is this? Are PC games dying? I don't think so, look at Star Citizen - there's a massive demand for PC games (their mantra for the uninitated is: I am a PC game - rumors of my death have been exagerated!).

I'm not anti-platform, but doing away with a large user base and going it alone imo will only end in pain and with further fragment the industry.
 

Anon-E-Mouse

A
Hamsterbytes said:
And then there is Steam. I have completely stopped and unloaded a program as soon as it says I have to load it(steam) to use the program. I first became aware Steam likes to use their program to target their users for ads. I am not going to have commercials directed at me due to them.
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I have no idea how you got this impression, but Steam DOES NOT do this. There are no adverts in Steam other that some rare suggestions based on what other games you own, and even then only on certain screen options in the client.

There's no adverts for Coke/Pespi/NFL or whatever, either in the engine or on the website. There are some popup windows when you lauch Steam, but you can TURN THESE OFF EASILY using the in-engine notification settings. I also do not get spam e-mails from Steam, so I've no idea where you got this mis-guided and completely false information from.

EA's Origin on the other hand will not only target you for adverts but most of EA's games have advertising built into the game from the get-go.

I know which system I'd prefer to have, and I'm as paranoid as they come (see my username)
 

Anon-E-Mouse

A
Thargon said:
You will note how they (Steam) are moving away from PC gaming as a whole to promoting their own hardware OS platform and linux games.
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This is in part because Micro$oft itself is moving away from the gaming market. This is particually obvious with their Windows App Store which is enabled by default, and then tally this with the requirement in Windows 8 to have a Windows Live ID. This rags on Valve and smacks of Micro$oft trying to make a market for themselves where the only things you can buy are X Bone games (from which Microsoft collects licensing fees).. and the PC games can go take a flying leap. The games for Windows ID was recently auto-converted to an X-Box Live ID without any notice.. the Games for Windows marketplace was withdrawn. This screams that Micro$oft themselves don't give a flying f**k about PC games/gamers.

Thargon said:
As for last time I bought a game in the shop - It's been a while, and yes, GAME has gone downhill rapidly.
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My last bricks and mortar purchase was actually yesterday. I managed to pick up Skyrim Legendary Edition for under £20 (cheaper than on Steam), and COH2 - Red Faction Editon (again cheaper than on Steam). Now I'll admit it's getting harder to find good PC games, but this is mainly down to publishers wanting a bigger slice of the pie (by trying to cut out bricks-and-mortar stores completely with digital download platforms)

Thargon said:
I'm not anti-platform, but doing away with a large user base and going it alone imo will only end in pain and with further fragment the industry.
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Well there is more than 1 way of looking at this, and that is certainly one of those ways. To my mind the newly annouced SteamOS is an attempt by Valve to break the strangle hold of Micro$oft's Direct X (and thereby Windows) on games. With OpenGL it's then upto publishers which platforms their games are released on, as OpenGL works across multiple platforms.

This in the long run can only be of benefit to the consumer as it widens choice, in a age where the big players are really desperately trying to narrow choice, by any means at their disposal.

For examply Apple has their entire "you must use iTunes to play this" across all their products.. want to play the music you brought on another player... nope not happening.

Micro$oft's actions really are all about moving ALL gamers over to the X Bone, want PC Games.. sorry not happening in their marketplace.

Even Sony has issues with not being able to play older titles on the new hardware forcing you to buy them again in most cases.

To me the interesting part of all this, will be how Steam will implement my being able to play my Windows games on Linux/SteamOS. If they can make that as seamless as possible then it's a far far better future than Micro$oft has planned for gamers. If I could play all my games on Linux/SteamOS, I'd dump Windows in a heartbeat. As at the moment it's only games that's keeping me on Windows.
 

klunk

K
Steve O B Have said:
Perhaps the whole pirating issue would be less troublesome if vendors didn't charge such exorbitant prices for new games. £40 for a game is in my opinion quite a bit. I personally tend to wait till the price drops below £20 before I buy them however if it were at that price initially then I would put my saved £20 betting that more people would just go and buy an original version.
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When Elite first came out in 1984 I was working in a games shop, very rare at that time. If my memory serves me right it was priced at £20 then, that was a high price, previously £10 was a top price game, £5 to £7 was normal and £1.99 was cheap. Exactly the same argument was had then, the games are too expensive and if they were cheaper there would be less piracy. Games have gone up in price (I know everything else has as well in that time) but still the same argument ensues. You will never eliminate piracy, no matter what price you pay. However stack em high and sell em cheap works as a business strategy. If it didnt you wouldn't have supermarkets or Poundland. What you have to get over though is the perception that cheap == rubbish.

As for the retailers making all the money, think again. In the mid 1990s I decided to investigate setting up a Playstation shop (PS1). I spoke with Sony and as an independent I HAD to use a single supplier. On release date the mark-up was the normal retail mark-up (somewhere between 50% to 70% went to the retailer), don't think Tesco take any less for your groceries. But after the price started to drop, then your margins were severely cut. A Platinum game (retail at £19.99) cost the independent shop £17 +VAT, in other words with VAT at 15% the shop made 50p on the game. The consoles had a markup of about £10.

The people making the money are not the developers and not the retailers. There is a reason EA are still here and that is because they make the money, just like the record industry it is the middlemen that make the killing. IMO
 

Shotgun2097

S
poor people will be the losers

it all sounds like a good idea and comon sense, trouble is the price point would still remain high, theres a point where its well priced and if you put a sliding scale on it it will always be in the highest bracket publishers/retailers can get away with. The poor person on the console (cheapest medium) who doesnt want to play on line but wants to play quality produced games will have to wait forever to get his, released at a lower priced copy ... my opinion
 

Slopey

Volunteer Moderator
Slopey
Klunk's post is highly relevant.

Consoles, you have to remember are controlled environments. You can't publish something for a console without the manufacturers consent - it's impossible. They'll set the price, even dictate features, and take a cut. You have no autonomy.

For PC that's not an issue however.

You also have to remember than anything that involves physical media is expensive to produce, and the publisher, who is going to produce that physical copy is going to take the biggest slice.

Digital distribution reduces the royalty that publishers can charge - yes, prices aren't necessarily cheaper than boxed product, but that's because boxed has a cost in terms of storage, shelf space etc - for a product which is older, they want it off their shop floor asap, hence it's more highly discounted. For digital distribution, that doesn't apply so you can hold the price higher for longer.

I have a Flight Sim addon published through a decent UK publisher which has shifted 5/6k units. The royalty on download is far in excess of that of boxed product - that means more money to the publisher granted, but it also means more money to me. Boxed, it's massively in favour of the publisher, however they've had to print manuals, press CDs, do box art etc....

So it's not quite as simple as it might appear.

As Klunk says - I almost set up an online game retail business mid 1990s. There are only really two UK distributors who will sell to independents in the UK, one of which was/is THE. The margin on games was shocking. For a full price game at £39.99, I would have been buying it in (and sometimes even higher than this!) at £34.99, leaving £5 per unit. But when you factored in overheads such as postage, fraud (the retailer is liable for the fraud to the credit card company), returns, stock, not to mention staff, premises, web site, hosting, merchant services (which can be up to 5% of the transaction), it becomes totally pointless unless you can guarantee massive volumes.
 

Juniper

Juniper
Thargon said:
Thing is, even though I am a Steam user, and I accept it's a good way of distributing games you will note how Steam as a platform is trying to do away with PC games. You will note how they are moving away from PC gaming as a whole to promoting their own hardware OS platform and linux games.
Click to expand...

I don't see it as moving away from PC gaming, more moving away from Microsoft (who have other gaming priorities than PC). In effect, Valve are trying to save the PC games market... by manufacturing their own PCs and their own (open source) OS and encouraging developers to create games for it.

SteamOS will work on any PC that will run Steam currently under Windows - you don't need to buy their hardware.

Nothing stopping you buying their hardware and installing Windows on it either. A "Steam Machine" is just a PC specification guideline - not some entirely new architecture.

This is totally different to Microsoft & Sony and their proprietary consoles where they control everything about the platform.
 

Wulfsok

Wulfsok
Some would argue that the existing piracy problem is the reason for high retail prices... And yet many games are going DRM-Free and being vocal about it... Recently the studio behind the Witcher series came out against DRM and vowed to keep Witcher 3 DRM free at launch.

They also quoted their massive sales increase in the PC Witcher 2 after they took out the DRM. So much so that their long-term profitability with the game is revolving around the PC version, not the console versions. For a lot of developers and publishers, the PC (and namely the Steam platform) is much more desirable to develop for than a console. This is the reason consoles are dying, in favor of crowd-pleasing interactive-ish movies.

And on that same note, is FD planning on releasing the game via Steam as well? Why not?
 
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