General / Off-Topic The persecutions of the British

[Moonax IRL]

Ireland has been tearing itself to pieces for centuries benefiting absolutely no-body in a cycle of continually resurrected problems from the past, and it's a generational cycle.

That`s like a rehash of the old "Irish Question" phrase, from our point of view it was the "English question", in that our problems stemmed from England's/Britain's policy in Ireland.

I mean you wouldn`t be too enamored if Ireland landed over and took control of 20% of the English landmass, I bet ye would start tearing each other apart in jig time. Good for the goose, good for the gander.

 

[Pyrotiger]

Thank you for that response, I was getting a bit wound up. I don't have a negative view of the republic. What you have said is pretty much where I thought we all were before Moonrax. I'm a bit of a royalist and the gestures the Queen made on the state visit to the republic and the way she was received really gave me hope.

I'm not a royalist at all but yes the visit was positive. The UK and Ireland do have a good relationship that Brexit will not derail. The free movement of Irish people in the UK is something that is appreciated in turn, for instance.

I was delighted to hear of regrets expressed towards the death of Lord Mountbatten in the past year or two as well, that was a big step.

 

[Gortron]

Gortron I think you fail to understand that the South was not responsible for the reemergence of the IRA in the late 60s, it was British & Unionist policy towards the nationalist minority in the North that brought them to fruition or do you believe me to be wrong on that front.

Irish Republic Army. The clue is in the name, although I've never said I think the Irish government sponsored the IRA and I don't now. But you must be living in la la land if you think there is no connection between the IRA and the republic, especially when your previous posts make it so obvious that you have connections to it. Verminstar was pretty open about his connections to unionists. I'm inclined to take his and spaceaboys view or NI history over yours. After all they live their and we are all members of the same sovereign state.

 

[Moonax IRL]

Irish Republic Army. The clue is in the name, although I've never said I think the Irish government sponsored the IRA and I don't now. But you must be living in la la land if you think there is no connection between the IRA and the republic, especially when your previous posts make it so obvious that you have connections to it. Verminstar was pretty open about his connections to unionists. I'm inclined to take his and spaceaboys view or NI history over yours. After all they live their and we are all members of the same sovereign state.

No connections whatsoever apart from the fact that family members were involved in the War of Independence in the 1920s, but that`s nearly a century ago. Do I believe that the War of Independence and 1916 was just, absolutely of course along with >90% of my countrymen. I am sorry for the fact it had to happen and Britain did not respect the outcome of the 1918 general elections in Ireland and just up sticks and leave rather then having to be kicked out, but that was a British decision not ours. We asked nicely first.

I`d advise you to get a good book of your own choosing on the subject if your interested, hit the net, just keep an open mind.

 

[Gortron]

I'm not a royalist at all but yes the visit was positive. The UK and Ireland do have a good relationship that Brexit will not derail. The free movement of Irish people in the UK is something that is appreciated in turn, for instance.

I was delighted to hear of regrets expressed towards the death of Lord Mountbatten in the past year or two as well, that was a big step.

Fair enough. My royalism is in direct conflict with all my other political beliefs. I voted for Brexit (predominantly over sovereignty) But if there was a referendum to make the Queen dictator.... I might actually vote for her.

 

[Pyrotiger]

I've never been to NI (I'm going to make sure I do soon and I promise I won't go on a tour!) and although I'm aware of what has gone on I'm in no way qualified to say what I'm about to say so please don't be offended if I have got this wrong. To me history or the importance of history is about learning from mistakes. The peace process in NI is working because you have realised that your history was making you kill each other and you've collectively decided to just stop and forgive. It is an amazing feat.

An amazing feat? Not entirely: power and money. Oh, and time.

Old terrorists grow weary of dodging bullets etc. They need retirement funds. No movement can surrender like this - they must be able to claim a victory of sorts, or an arrangement 'to continue the struggle'. They also get more concerned how history will judge them.

Starting really with Enniskillen, then with Warrington, the tide was turning against the IRA. American donations were drying up, thanks to the bad publicity. Recruitment just wadnt happening. Also, Gaddafi wasn't getting them the supplies they used to enjoy. Thatcher wasn't in power, and Major's administration was privately more open to accommodation.

Stormont and the Good Friday agreement was that arrangement, that salve. Cross community and cross border groups sprung up (predominately Nationalist) and they were very good at raising money from European grants. For surveys. And projects that didn't always bear fruit. Where did the money go? I wouldn't like to comment.

Not to say certain members of the security forces weren't involved in scams. I'll move on.

Prisoners were released, too - don't forget the impact that had on families. That was hard for many people. Of course, all part of the package offered.

The younger generation don't have the appetite to continue the fight. That, for me, is the most naturally amazing thing to come out of it. Plus it doesn't suit their now-respectable, pillar of the establishment leaders to stoke it up again.

 

[Pyrotiger]

Irish Republic Army. The clue is in the name, although I've never said I think the Irish government sponsored the IRA and I don't now. But you must be living in la la land if you think there is no connection between the IRA and the republic, especially when your previous posts make it so obvious that you have connections to it. Verminstar was pretty open about his connections to unionists. I'm inclined to take his and spaceaboys view or NI history over yours. After all they live their and we are all members of the same sovereign state.

I've blocked this guy, but I can read what he says through your quotes...ugh

Historically, it's true. What he says, in this context, is true. We might mention Charlie Haughey and gun running a little later, but that's another story.

As I say, think of the IRA in two parts.

1 - IRA before Irish independence - Irish (south) centered, derived from IRB
WILDERNESS YEARS (op black harvest - failure) - pretty much dissolved
2 - IRA northern group, separate entity, from mix of Civil Rights and Northern frustration

Republic of Ireland is not to blame for 2. You could say that the Irish government did little to stop the northern IRA, but remember that it wasn't their responsibility, they didn't want to meddle with British affairs...and they didn't want a newly armed paramilitary force causing problems for them in Dublin. Highly understandable.

 

[Gortron]

No connections whatsoever apart from the fact that family members were involved in the War of Independence in the 1920s, but that`s nearly a century ago. Do I believe that the War of Independence and 1916 was just, absolutely of course along with >90% of my countrymen. I am sorry for the fact it had to happen and Britain did not respect the outcome of the 1918 general elections in Ireland and just up sticks and leave rather then having to be kicked out, but that was a British decision not ours. We asked nicely first.

Hehe, so lots of connections then. You aren't sorry you are trying to justify it to yourself. Don't let me an Evil British person point out the truth.

It's like Brexit really, the evil racist empire has mic dropped. Everyone knows that the UK is probably on to something..... but it's easier to call us all racist

 

[Moonax IRL]

-------Slán-------

 

[Pyrotiger]

Fair enough. My royalism is in direct conflict with all my other political beliefs. I voted for Brexit (predominantly over sovereignty) But if there was a referendum to make the Queen dictator.... I might actually vote for her.

If you are saying that a benevolent dictator could be the best form of government, then I would have to agree. I've a lot of time for William: I think he's a good man. Saying the Queen is the one to do it...an interesting concept, but highly implausible.

But the monarchy is not my concern. I did not vote - Brexit is/was for the British to decide. I renounced my dual nationality last year. People have different reasons for what they voted, but only a fool can deny that immigration was a factor, and only a simpleton/simplicist would put all of this down to mere xenophobia. I thought the national debate on both sides of the argument was disgusting, ill-tempered and misleading. Oh how I laughed at Gove, though.

I suggest that you are trying to argue the toss with someone else here who has a very good knowledge of Irish history, acquired over a lifetime. They know how to use it to make some contentious points, too. I think you're trying to outgun an Engineered Anaconda here, which is brave of you *coughwasteoftimecough*

 

[Gortron]

I've blocked this guy, but I can read what he says through your quotes...ugh

Historically, it's true. What he says, in this context, is true. We might mention Charlie Haughey and gun running a little later, but that's another story.

As I say, think of the IRA in two parts.

1 - IRA before Irish independence - Irish (south) centered, derived from IRB
WILDERNESS YEARS (op black harvest - failure) - pretty much dissolved
2 - IRA northern group, separate entity, from mix of Civil Rights and Northern frustration

Republic of Ireland is not to blame for 2. You could say that the Irish givernment did little to stop the northern IRA, but remember that it wasn't their responsibility, they didn't want to meddle with British affairs...and they didn't want a newly armed paramilitary force causing problems for them in Dublin. Highly understandable.

I've been reading what you have said all day and I find what you (and what Verminstar said) very interesting. Please don't take my inept response to Moonrax as my overarching belief.

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If you are saying that a benevolent dictator could be the best form of government, then I would have to agree. I've a lot of time for William: I think he's a good man.

But the monarchy is not my concern. I did not vote - Brexit is/was for the British to decide. I renounced my dual nationality last year.

Why would you renounce nationally?

 

[Gortron]

If you are saying that a benevolent dictator could be the best form of government, then I would have to agree. I've a lot of time for William: I think he's a good man.

But the monarchy is not my concern. I did not vote - Brexit is/was for the British to decide. I renounced my dual nationality last year.

Btw I'm not saying that a benevolent dictator could be the best form of government. I am saying that the Queen as dictator would be the best form of government

 

[Moonax IRL]

Yep the mental midgets have the floor.

 

[Gortron]

Yep the mental midgets have the floor.

What do you mean?

 

[Pyrotiger]

I've been reading what you have said all day and I find what you (and what Verminstar said) very interesting. Please don't take my inept response to Moonrax as my overarching belief.

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Why would you renounce nationally?

Inept - no. It's like learning a language in a day, then wanting to know all the local quirks and idioms. It canot be done. It is no slight against 'outsiders'. It is not a language that will warm your heart. It is a tale of woe and pain and futility. I'm not saying I'll go skipping down the Shore Road with Verminstar on the 12th, but I get where he's coming from. The other person knows his history well, but he uses it to press a point too much for my liking.

Nationality - you're gonna love this - to circumvent British immigration policy so my foreign wife can live with me, as now I'm classified as European and not British, so British immigration laws which changed in 2012 do not apply to me - basically, I have more rights than someone British in this respect. Thanks to the Good Friday agreement.

I got student finance and this thanks to being Northern Irish. At least there were finally some advantages to being born 'here', and yes, Republicans told me how to do it. And I've helped others do it since. So it wasn't a rejection of Britishness per se.

 

[Gortron]

If you are saying that a benevolent dictator could be the best form of government, then I would have to agree. I've a lot of time for William: I think he's a good man. Saying the Queen is the one to do it...an interesting concept, but highly implausible.

But the monarchy is not my concern. I did not vote - Brexit is/was for the British to decide. I renounced my dual nationality last year. People have different reasons for what they voted, but only a fool can deny that immigration was a factor, and only a simpleton/simplicist would put all of this down to mere xenophobia. I thought the national debate on both sides of the argument was disgusting, ill-tempered and misleading. Oh how I laughed at Gove, though.

I suggest that you are trying to argue the toss with someone else here who has a very good knowledge of Irish history, acquired over a lifetime. They know how to use it to make some contentious points, too. I think you're trying to outgun an Engineered Anaconda here, which is brave of you *coughwasteoftimecough*

I happen to respect your view point.. I feel a bit dejected now

 

[Pyrotiger]

What do you mean?

Don't take the bait. It's easy for someone to be wise and sling insults from a lofty tower, far removed from it all. Some Irish have a huge inferiority complex towards the English; they feel they must prove intellectual parity. Sad.

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I happen to respect your view point.. I feel a bit dejected now

I hope you realise I wasn't referring to myself as that anaconda? I have no guns and I'm not the one pressing points. You surely know who I'm on about.

Gitgud CMDR Gortron.

Tim Pat Coogan - The IRA - damn good read (or so I'm told). Start there.

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Btw I'm not saying that a benevolent dictator could be the best form of government. I am saying that the Queen as dictator would be the best form of government

I know. Interesting idea. I was saying about the benevolent dictator! But that is, of course, an idea loaded with risk.

 

[Gortron]

Inept - no. It's like learning a language in a day, then wanting to know all the local quirks and idioms. It canot be done. It is no slight against 'outsiders'. It is not a language that will warm your heart. It is a tale of woe and pain and futility. I'm not saying I'll go skipping down the Shore Road with Verminstar on the 12th, but I get where he's coming from. The other person knows his history well, but he uses it to press a point too much for my liking.

Nationality - you're gonna love this - to circumvent British immigration policy so my foreign wife can live with me, as now I'm classified as European and not British, so British immigration laws which changed in 2012 do not apply to me - basically, I have more rights than someone British in this respect. Thanks to the Good Friday agreement.

I got student finance and this thanks to being Northern Irish. At least there were finally some advantages to being born , and yes, Republicans told me how to do it. And I've helped others do it since. So it wasn't a rejection of Britishness per se.

Ok this got werid. The UK is still in the EU and as a law abiding member of it absolutely nothing has changed. The only real difference is the UK is still paying billions into it, is about to leave and it is a forbidden topic for the country that is leaving only.

 

[Gortron]

Don't take the bait. It's easy for someone to be wise and sling insults from a lofty tower, far removed from it all. Some Irish have a huge inferiority complex towards the English; they feel they must prove intellectual parity. Sad.

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I hope you realise I wasn't referring to myself as that anaconda? I have no guns and I'm not the one pressing points. You surely know who I'm on about.

Gitgud CMDR Gortron.

Tim Pat Coogan - The IRA - damn good read (or so I'm told). Start there.

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I know. Interesting idea. I was saying about the benevolent dictator! But that is, of course, an idea loaded with risk.

lol sorry. I understand now. I did get a bit confused but it wasn't your fault.

 

[Pyrotiger]

No no no . This isn't Brexit. Look at 2012 and immigration law brought in by the then Home Secretary, Mrs T May.

It was challenged in the High Court. It lost. Govt won.

There is European immigration law that European countries should abide by - however, Britain interprets much of this law as it sees fit, even though they actually violate the treaty to a considerable extent. Imposing a financial level for entry, for instance, is not strictly legal. Britain put this extra constraint in to keep down immigration.

However, a non-British person residing in the UK will be treated as a European. If you have dual nationality, which Verminstar surely has also if he so chooses it, you will be treated as being European (Irish European) and never having been British, provided you renounce your British citizenship.

It's a loophole. It's stupid. I was born in Britain, as in Northern Ireland, yet British legislation now says that I must be considered as having always been Irish. Duh.

I had a lot of 'fun' learning laws better than Embassy officials. I thank those who helped me stick two fingers up to the system. I could of course reapply for British nationality, but apparently given the circumstances it would be a first...and I see myself as more Irish than anything else, anyway.