Vindicator Jones Discusses Fundamental Game Improvements

[IndigoWyrd]

Open Player Problems

So let me tell my little story here, without a post-production video.
Back in, I don't know, a few months ago, I was looking for something to play that was spacey and Elite: Dangerous came up in my search again. I'd seen it some time prior, but it didn't have planetary landing, so I gave it a pass. Well, this time it had Horizons, and that promised planetary landings, so I coughed up some dough, bought the game and I've been here ever since.

Well, not quite like that - see I did a little bit of looking and listening and learning first. Part of that involved a visit here to read some of the goings on. And this business of unprovoked PvP and tales of new commanders being blasted over and over just trying to get out of space dock gave me pause. But then I noticed there were Private Groups and a Solo mode. So, after many attempts to get the code I needed in a timely manner and that worked (about 8 attempts), I was finally looking at the login screen.

Ah, tutorials - I started there. Crashed a few sidewinders into stations, got blown up a few times as I fumbled with the mouse and keyboard controls, and finally broke down and bought a flight stick. Spent an hour or so configuring and reconfiguring controls, until I had something that I liked the feel of, and finished off the tutorials. Now I was faced with a choice - do I dive into open and take my chances? I don't know anyone to private group with, or do I go it alone.

Tap, tap, click, and into Solo I went.
I figured, I'd stay here a while and learn to fly my ship, and learn to not suck at flying my ship.
I also signed up for Mobius, but I never saw anybody there, and was starting to have my doubts.
A month came and went, and I was feeling pretty good about my little collection of chips. I had some little tiny ones, like the Sidewinder I came with, and the Eagle I'd bought, and Viper IV I was enjoying the heck out of, as well as Keelback I was starting to enjoy.
More time passed, and I had a pretty good grasp of things. Then it happened. I signed in to Mobius one evening, and there was a hollow box on my radar. It spoke to me, and I replied. We chatted a bit, and went our merry ways.
And I didn't see anyone for days, so I went back to playing solo.

And mostly I still do.

I don't want to spend my time calculating and figuring the absolute maximum damage I can get per shot, while squeezing every drop of power I can into my shields, so I can one-shot kill an Anaconda with an escape pod, because that's not my idea of fun. But some people enjoy things like Accounting, Calculus, and Suduku. I'm just not one of them.

But I have ventured into open from time to time, for various reasons - to take video of people doing things, or to be videoed doing things, or to help some poor soul minutes old get started in the game, or to make wakes for people to scan - and nothing particularly bad has happened to me during those visits to the cinnamon-colored part of the ring, but why take chances? Back to Private Groups or Solo I go. Then, I discovered something:

There seem to be a lot of people trying to play on 3rd or 4th world Internet connections. I have never seen more skipping, stuttering and strange behavior than I have in Open. And that's a play-killer for me.

 

[Grey Wolfe]

Sorry... To me it's clear one of the two of you is out to actually make some considered points and suggestions, while the other is out to "score points"...

Yes that seems pretty clear to me too ...

 

[Pville_Piper]

Words have meaning.. it may seem pedantic but its not intended as such.. Either using pejorative terms is okay or its not.

Yes, words have meaning but your constant attacks are boorish to say the least.

 

[Grey Wolfe]

OK try this experiment, go into an independent system today right now even and start killing cops and civilians of the controlling faction. In a few minutes your reputation will drop from Neutral, to Unfriendly, to Hostile. Being Hostile means you are unable to dock at the control factions stations and are KOS for the police and any Allied NPCs. Hostile status exists outside of the bounty system and is not reduced by being killed. Getting back to Unfriendly status will remove the KOS flag and grant you grudging docking privileges, but it will take you several hours of searching for missions in systems that have that faction, but they aren't controlling it, thus allowing you to dock. If you want to get back to Neutral status that will take a day or two of solid effort. Hunting down rep healing missions is extremely annoying and time consuming but not impossible. And it gives players a chance to redeem themselves via a investment that precludes quick side switching and abuse.

Under a similar Karmic system, the Karmic Reputation status of player relative to the controlling (major/minor) faction would display under their name after being scanned. So you would know if they were bad actors regardless of their bounty status. If they were Hostile, they would be legally KOS by anyone Allied to the controlling faction. Simple.

Thanks for your contribution Ziljan. I guess you've tested something that many of us (including experienced players) hasn't. I wasn't aware that reaching a HOSTILE status denied docking privileges ... although it seems to have only been around in the last 6 months. I still feel that a further augmentation of this mechanic with a balanced karma system is needed as the current system clearly isn't an effective deterrent for the most extremes of play style.

Also, what does 'grudging docking privileges' mean? You're either granted access or your not right?

 

[BostromNZ]

And this ties in to one of my main bugbears with the game - the constant chase to release shiny new things and revenue which at times, especially the amount of dev time put into the revenue chasing, I find quite obscene, because those things have to be 100% per cent right when it's quite obvious certain parts of the game are not. Hang on though, you already had my money for the game, at least get the core of that right first. Please?

Every single patch from 1.0 has contained innumerous quality of life improvements and other improvements to existing game mechanics.

 

[Grey Wolfe]

Every single patch from 1.0 has contained innumerous quality of life improvements and other improvements to existing game mechanics.

Yes ... this is true. I guess what we're trying to thrash out here is a more fundamental mechanic change that would require more dev time than the QoL changes of previous patches.

Don't envy Frontier's position ... it must be a constant balancing act between progressing the game and keeping the community happy.

 

[Limoncello Lizard]

Also, what does 'grudging docking privileges' mean? You're either granted access or your not right?

You get permission, but the controller really just wants to shoot you instead.

What you don't want to do is fail or abandon a mission while you are docked in the station, as you can be shot as soon as you try to leave.

 

[Grey Wolfe]

You get permission, but the controller really just wants to shoot you instead.

What you don't want to do is fail or abandon a mission while you are docked in the station, as you can be shot as soon as you try to leave.

Mmm, interesting Thx.

 

[Gunnet]

When the topic is open PvE, PvP players insist that all is needed is a C&P/karma system in open PvP. When the topic is a C&P/karma system, PvP players complain about the possibility of it being an effective deterrent to certain behaviours. It doesn't take a genius to see that the real objective is to keep things practically the way they are.

Maybe it's time for some players to consider whether their playstyle would be less affected by some targets being lost to open PvE than by the current open being reworked to accommodate the majority.

 

[Ziljan]

Thanks for your contribution Ziljan. I guess you've tested something that many of us (including experienced players) hasn't. I wasn't aware that reaching a HOSTILE status denied docking privileges ... although it seems to have only been around in the last 6 months. I still feel that a further augmentation of this mechanic with a balanced karma system is needed as the current system clearly isn't an effective deterrent for the most extremes of play style.

Also, what does 'grudging docking privileges' mean? You're either granted access or your not right?

Yes, exactly, the Karma system in my opinion could easily just be an extension of the current Reputation system, whereby all associated lawful systems (eg all Federally controlled systems, all Imperial aligned systems, all Alliance systems, etc) agree to an internal Reputation accounting. So that if you have a bad reputation with one minor faction, it damages your reputation with the associated Major faction to an equal degree. Commit 3-5 cold blooded murders in a high security Federal system? You are a now considered Hostile in every Federal System you enter. Simply shooting at cops will decrease your reputation as well, but by lesser degree, as it does now. Etc.

Grudging docking privileges means that they let you dock but issue a verbal warning to be on your best behavior and notify you that they are keeping their eye one you. I am not sure if this has actual mechanic behind it, but it may act like a 3 strikes law where you already have 2 strikes. The control tower already issues 1 or 2 warnings before opening fire for misdemeanors when you are Neutral, iirc. Haven't tested the control tower's patience when I was Unfriendly because I don't enjoy rebuy screens

 

[Slack]

Does this mostly apply to trade ships? I play in open a fair bit and it seems quite rare to get interdicted/pirated. And when it does happen it's child's play to get away.

 

[Grey Wolfe]

Does this mostly apply to trade ships? I play in open a fair bit and it seems quite rare to get interdicted/pirated. And when it does happen it's child's play to get away.

... I'd say that pirating trade ships is well within the parameters of intended gameplay. Whereas deliberately hanging around systems that spawn new players so that griefers and gankers can swat them down as they try to get on their feet in a game that has a steep enough learning curve anyway is not in the spirit of the games design.

 

[CMDR_Elver]

Hello,
I like the C&P ideas presented in this video. I think this would help Open.
Personally I still would have no interest in going into Open as I like the freedom of going anywhere that I like and not have to put up with PvP. Though I really wouldn't mind having more/higher ranked NPCs intradicting me in Anarchy.

The only thing that seems to bug me about the video, is towards the end where VJ seems to say that there is more incentive to play in Open because I presume that the rewards are higher. This to me breaks the Open = Group = Solo foundation of the game. And it is something I do not agree with. If the plain joy of flying in a "dangerous" environment such as Open is not good enough then why bother. Not to mention that there will always be work arounds.

Having an in-game arena style play is actually pretty cool. Except this is another concept that breaks the Open = Group = Solo foundation. This is one of the reasons I can understand FDev making CQC separate to the main game. Maybe a mod to CQC would be the ability to use your in-game ships and as VJ said, with very little to no consequence, with different class.

Anyway just my $0.02.

Have fun, fly safe. And thanks for the video link. o7

Having OPEN , GROUP & SOLO modes are fine but I would treat them as parallel universes as much as possible. I don't that like you transfer across credits, ships, even missions across modes. Seen youtube videos of how to stack up similar missions in the three modes. Where by you get loads more credits for doing the same work, bit of a loop hole that needs closing. I suppose more OPEN modes could be constructed to suit players playing styles aswell.

The CQC could quite happliy sit OPEN, GROUP, SOLO, if certain designated systems are set-up for CQC scenarios. Maybe sign up for a comp in a port. Could be spectator and social potential their also. It doesn't change the game dynamics in my opinion. Perhaps if players wanted to use their own ships, just construct competitions where once destroyed your knock out of that round instead of resporning. Have minimal insurance cost etc.

 

[Julio Montega]

Every single patch from 1.0 has contained innumerous quality of life improvements and other improvements to existing game mechanics.

And required 3 hotfixes to get rid of reintroduced bugs from previous game-versions.

 

[Grey Wolfe]

Having OPEN , GROUP & SOLO modes are fine but I would treat them as parallel universes as much as possible. I don't that like you transfer across credits, ships, even missions across modes. Seen youtube videos of how to stack up similar missions in the three modes. Where by you get loads more credits for doing the same work, bit of a loop hole that needs closing. I suppose more OPEN modes could be constructed to suit players playing styles aswell.

'Board Hopping' has been fixed by FD (mostly). Doesn't work anywhere near as well as it did previously.

The CQC could quite happliy sit OPEN, GROUP, SOLO, if certain designated systems are set-up for CQC scenarios. Maybe sign up for a comp in a port. Could be spectator and social potential their also. It doesn't change the game dynamics in my opinion. Perhaps if players wanted to use their own ships, just construct competitions where once destroyed your knock out of that round instead of resporning. Have minimal insurance cost etc.

Would love to see CQC sit on the OPEN/GROUP/SOLO servers, making it part of the main game and be somewhere you travel to and compete in - kinda like the sports section of the Bubble.

 

[Sole Hunter]

There's nothing new to learn from this video, no offense... it's a good video but it's basically stuff we've been talking about and pressuring the devs to do for nearly a year now. Frontier inability to provide long term fixes and release compiling quality content since Horizon came out isn't going to change anytime soon. At least not until 2.4 is released or when they finally decide to listen to the outcries and focus on the core gameplay elements of the game.

If there's anything we've came to understand from Horizon is that Frontier is really good at releasing short spur excitement updates like a 15 sec cutscene with no extra meat or substantial gameplay attached to it.

It's good to have faith in better gameplay but I wouldn't hold my breath in the C&P system to be released/announced anytime soon considering fdev previous history. If it ever make it to the live server it's probably going to be a dumbed down karma system with no depth.

 

[Susanna]

Personally, I'd rather have 3 things done well than 6 things in as place holders... And way too many things in ED are just place holders imo... Or just plain not thought through!

Even simple things... Take fuel limpets for example. You have to load a load of limpets and then the limpet controller transfers ONE TON AT A TIME PER LIMPET to the other ship. WPF? Really, even today we have mid air refuelling. Two stationery ships in space should be a doddle!

There are many such things in ED... and frankly I think it just sucks. It's a Placeholder mentality that let's you believe that this is good enough. The problem is that it isn't!

 

[zenoic]

I've just watched vindicator Jones video and this seems to be a reasonable solution to a fairly thorny problem. I've recently been playing more in open and whilst were waiting for some improvements I've got a few suggestions for those people that would like to play in open but not engage in PvP.
1 Avoid Community goals sites and nearby areas in open, they are a magnet for PvP pilots.
2 Colonia because of its distance doesn't attract many pvp pilots, and because it's of a small size has a good concentration of players that you'll see fairly often.

 

[wstephenson]

Yes, exactly, the Karma system in my opinion could easily just be an extension of the current Reputation system, whereby all associated lawful systems (eg all Federally controlled systems, all Imperial aligned systems, all Alliance systems, etc) agree to an internal Reputation accounting. So that if you have a bad reputation with one minor faction, it damages your reputation with the associated Major faction to an equal degree. Commit 3-5 cold blooded murders in a high security Federal system? You are a now considered Hostile in every Federal System you enter. Simply shooting at cops will decrease your reputation as well, but by lesser degree, as it does now. Etc.

Apologies for the late reply. This could work. To elaborate it a little further:

Keep in mind that Elite's defining feature is a huge 3D space. Stating the obvious, I know, but it provides a huge playfield, and reputation and criminal status give the endless expanse some geography and shape, and enable emergent play. Your proposal is too broad, however, as it partitions inhabited space into only 4 parts. The existing system of micro legal jurisdictions is also very easy to 'skip into the next county' and carry on gaily with a crime spree. I'd like to see some intermediate scale of shared jurisdictions. Sound familiar? This is what Powerplay gets right, with its interlocking bubbles of influence and consequences for straying into the wrong territory, only it's not applied to crime and punishment. It's as if FD had a BGS/C&P system 2.0 half finished and rather than rip and replace what shipped with 1.0, it was branded up as Powerplay in parallel to it.

So I'd think up some way of subdividing superpower space into medium scale polities and use those for scoping reputation. Perhaps just integrate the Powerplay views and treat Powers as the heads of local jurisdictional fiefdoms which affect everyone.

Alternatively, treat your reputation as a 3D field and locate points in it corresponding to where you commit crimes in the galaxy. The strength of each point depends on severity and number of crimes. Strength falls off with distance. At any given location, combining the strength of all points gives a 'field strength' determining how 'bad' you are there, which informs the local government's response.

Secondly: to have gameplay around the difference between your legal status/reputation in system A and in system B, it helps to be able to visualise your personal playfield. I'd suggest the reusing Powerplay bubble map view, but displaying your personal Wantedness in space. The display-on-jump added in 2.2 is a start but doesn't allow strategic planning.

Thirdly: (and this interacts with smaller-than-superpower jurisdiction) the cost to reputation of criminal acts needs to be higher, so that an immediate local consequence is felt, stations deny services to you, all lawful groups stop offering missions. If jurisdictions are too large, though, this becomes an excessive penalty.

Fourthly: The 'bad guy' play style should be sustainable, in that there should more to do for them at the Anarchy systems and stations within lawful systems where criminals will gravitate - scarcity of legally traded goods and vastly inflated prices when selling on the black market.

 

[NeilF]

Personally, I'd rather have 3 things done well than 6 things in as place holders... And way too many things in ED are just place holders imo... Or just plain not thought through!

Even simple things... Take fuel limpets for example. You have to load a load of limpets and then the limpet controller transfers ONE TON AT A TIME PER LIMPET to the other ship. WPF? Really, even today we have mid air refuelling. Two stationery ships in space should be a doddle!

There are many such things in ED... and frankly I think it just sucks. It's a Placeholder mentality that let's you believe that this is good enough. The problem is that it isn't!

I suggested sometime ago if we could ship-to-ship-dock, we could then open alternative new methods/mechanics for things. eg: Allow fuel transfer and cargo transfer in a more organised/simpler way, as an alternative to limpets (not a replacement, but an alternative).

Maybe even open up new mechanics such as material/oxygen transfer, or ship-to-ship repairs (via AFMUs) etc... It could also offer new mission start/end points too. eg: Dock with an NPC ship to start/complete a specific mission.

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=238907