Alien archeology and other mysteries: Thread 9 - The Canonn

[Leo3ABP]

Well, here is the rub : the ruins are not fixed relative to the sky, so the pillars being pointer is possible, but it may be only once every 6.9dy, and then I guess that there are many stars that would "fit the bill" so to speak.

I'm trying to imagine a way to use this idea to reduce the search time compared to a dumb brute force approach, and so far I fail.

1) each tower points at a circle on the sky. Since all the towers are close-by (in the sense that the distance between them is << than the planet radius) it's really only one circle.
2) add in uncertainty, and we have a high number of stars. This would be fine if there where a way to go from sky map to galaxy map, but there is not. (you cannot point at a start and just select...). This makes determining which stars in this circle corresponds to which systems in the gal map rather... tricky.
3) then, we still don't have any idea of the distance...

I *do* think that the best way to go is working toward finding new ruins, and that the clue we get about the network following a geometrical pattern is an important clue in that regard.
What I'm saying is that without an additional clue, this is rather tricky and prone to tinfoil runaway. (Like : say we suppose the pattern is made of triangles, and it's made of squares lol)*

*regular tillings only allow for triangles, exagons and squares. (though if FD went extra nuts could use penrose tillings and then lol)

My experience with the UP is that before solving the puzzle, one must understand what the pieces are. So far, it's unclear to me what the pieces are.

Anyway, the site latitude is ~-30°, so the sky circle has a ~120° opening (i.e. not a great circle).
And then there are the 5 pillars markings that so far no one (as far as I know) has been able to figure out. Might be a clue.

It seems that Guardians may have been putting a lot of meaning into number 3, with all the triangles and 3 data patterns we get from a scan. Now we have a planetary cycle of 6.9d which is also dividable by 3. Ofc might be just a coincidence, but if it not, maybe monolith point at something at 2.3 or 4.6 planetary cycle (assuming that 0(or 6.9) is where we at)... except now we need to determine starting point.

 

[Rustled Jimmy]

Does anyone know if you accidentally turn in the mission ( pressed the button too many times) if we can get it again? Went to change ships at the station and boom, turned it in because lag.

Thanks in advance

 

[Martin Afonso]

The first image has to be significant. The shadow overlaying it doesn't help, but it could be an image of a Guardian, a religious symbl, or some kind of impression of the ship that was launched from this facility - and I am quite convinced that that, at least in part, was the purpose of this structure.

The second image nicely shows that these are load-bearing structures, designed to bear a sizeable mass. The 'clamp' type structures around the ruins also imply a need to hold in place a very large construction - an Ark, possibly? The fact that FTL travel was discovered while the Arks were in flight, yet FTL comms were developed in time to reach these Arks while on their journey, suggests to me that this ruins site is where the Guardians put one of the Arks down to rebuild it as an FTL ship. The clues we're searching for relate to both where it came from, and where it was going (and, if we find the other sites, where the other two went).

It looks like a Bussard ramjet.

 

[Surl Tesh-echer]

I can't find but remember that "they" traveled with near-light speed. So we can assume the distance

But what does travel speed has to how far signal can be transmitted?* Correct me if I am wrong, but electromagnetic signal will go for a long time before it will disperse. We are still receiving cosmic microwave background from after Big Bang Theory season 6.

* Well, so it has something to do, because with different speed (in different medium) it would not travel so far

 

[CMDR ChronoZoggt]

AhAh, I was waiting for someone, like "you", pointing out this obvious similarity
It seems we are going in the same direction then, however the MUST HAVE feature we are missing, is the Telepathy bit, where you somehow gather that knowledge without doing anything, like "you" are the client, no need for a device, or learning by reading. I mean, you get it passively, thanks to those "implants" they have developed. But I'm sure we are close as well

actually, some researchers ARE actually pretty close to it with brain-to-computer interfaces implanted into the skull. (cannot find an exact source, but here is something about memory implants making learning easier and more efficienthttps://www.technologyreview.com/s/513681/memory-implants/

 

[Leo3ABP]

actually, some researchers ARE actually pretty close to it with brain-to-computer interfaces implanted into the skull. (cannot find an exact source, but here is something about memory implants making learning easier and more efficienthttps://www.technologyreview.com/s/513681/memory-implants/

Think of all the possibilities for gaming with a development of direct human-machine interface...

 

[Erid]

But what does travel speed has to how far signal can be transmitted? Correct me if I am wrong, but electromagnetic signal will go for a long time before it will disperse. We are still receiving cosmic microwave background from after Big Bang Theory season 6.

ED is a game - there will be some ... simplifying.

my 2 cents
I think need to search moons with moons like 1B and 1Ba
I don't think that location of ruin "walls" will change. So angle between "Landing pads" (hi, Rizal) is constant. Then with some observation of moon rotation (most likely rotating period will be like in 1Ba - 0.33 day^-1 or close to it) we will have "Belt of possible locations". By simple calculations with pencil and paper ofc.

 

[Muetdhiver]

It seems that Guardians may have been putting a lot of meaning into number 3, with all the triangles and 3 data patterns we get from a scan. Now we have a planetary cycle of 6.9d which is also dividable by 3. Ofc might be just a coincidence, but if it not, maybe monolith point at something at 2.3 or 4.6 planetary cycle (assuming that 0(or 6.9) is where we at)... except now we need to determine starting point.

I agree that 3 seems the right number here. However, the 6.9dy partition stuff assumes that the guardian used a one day "day" XD.

 

[Han_Zen]

I agree that 3 seems the right number here. However, the 6.9dy partition stuff assumes that the guardian used a one day "day" XD.

That would mean that they were originally from Earth. We just don't find any stuff there, because the AI cleaned the place after killing them.

 

[Glastinghouse]

If their language is visual, then the layout of the Ruins must be a word/sentence/whatever. It cannot be doubted that the appearance is important and has a purpose.

I'm sure I'm saying things already said

 

[Agony_Aunt]

Noting how they changed the obelisks around after the patch, I think this site (2) now points to site 1. It originally pointed to site 3.

When we make it to site 1, I reckon it will look like this site pre-patch.

With this in mind, the obelisks must identify where we are going to find the next site, it's just figuring that out. Maybe something to do with numbers of obelisks = co-ordinates or a destination? Their language is visual...

My brain hurts thinking about it though!!

Oooh, nice thought. So, has anyone done a side by side comparison of the original layout with the new?

 

[danteuk]

Been looking into this mission the last few days , watched a few videos on youtube the question is where do i start and what would people say i need to have prior to attempting it.

Many thanks

I'd say don't bother trying until FDev fix at least some of the bugs!
Right now the only thing that's certain is various bugs are stopping it working as intended. So yes it's possible to get data and with a lot of luck and patience and using a private group or open with plenty of other cmdrs coming and going you might be able to get most of the data scans. I've got to 29 data scans, and due the various bugs I've got around 42M in pay outs from it!
But even if we manage by luck to get all the obelisks active at some point long enough to scan with the right combination so we a complete list of obelisk + combo = datascans, we still will not have solved the puzzle because the solution is finding a repeatable method for a single cmdr in solo to obtain all the data scans.

2nd part of the puzzle might be to figure out how it can point us to another ruins site - FDev are unlikely to confirm or deign if this is actually possible. After all they let us waste months looking at the ruins layout prior to the 2.2.03 beta - where it changed layout! then when 2.2.03 went live it changed again. I believe the earth works are the same but the position and layout of the obelisks changes. Maybe it changes to point to another ruins maybe it's just a random procedural layout generated when the system is first created in the stellar forge ( as is the case for lots of elements of the ED galaxy ).

 

[SpartanRKO]

There is a FAQ on the first page that attempts to cover this - search for 'FAQ', the first page is quite large

Thankyou , much appreciated

- - - Updated - - -

I'd say don't bother trying until FDev fix at least some of the bugs!
Right now the only thing that's certain is various bugs are stopping it working as intended. So yes it's possible to get data and with a lot of luck and patience and using a private group or open with plenty of other cmdrs coming and going you might be able to get most of the data scans. I've got to 29 data scans, and due the various bugs I've got around 42M in pay outs from it!
But even if we manage by luck to get all the obelisks active at some point long enough to scan with the right combination so we a complete list of obelisk + combo = datascans, we still will not have solved the puzzle because the solution is finding a repeatable method for a single cmdr in solo to obtain all the data scans.

2nd part of the puzzle might be to figure out how it can point us to another ruins site - FDev are unlikely to confirm or deign if this is actually possible. After all they let us waste months looking at the ruins layout prior to the 2.2.03 beta - where it changed layout! then when 2.2.03 went live it changed again. I believe the earth works are the same but the position and layout of the obelisks changes. Maybe it changes to point to another ruins maybe it's just a random procedural layout generated when the system is first created in the stellar forge ( as is the case for lots of elements of the ED galaxy ).

Yeh i have been reading about the possibilities of bugs etc , but I have also sat down and brain stormed with other cmdrs about possible continuities , I think that some of the bugs people are having may not actually be bugs but more of a engineered test built into the game mechanics to make the task challenging ... perhaps i'm posting this on the wrong thread . Apologies if so !

 

[Jorki Rasalas]

Yeah, I though of the sites being in a geometric pattern, say a triangle since it would mean 3sites => all data.

However there are some problems with using this :

1) we do not know the plane which contains the triangle
2) we do not know the length between the three points.
3) Brute forcing the problem is very hard (would need a data set of all the systems in the area, with their coordinates, and search for equilateral triangles starting with the known system)*.


*It might be possible to do using the logfile / eddiscovery (will have a look see, because checking all the systems in a 150 lyr radius seems at least doable).

Surely the galactic plane that the ruins lie on is calculable from the lat/long, the orbital/spin parameters of the planet & the coordinates of the system?

 

[danteuk]

So when can I cash in this reward then?

Any time.
and if you want to take on the mission again you can, just leave the system and then re-enter it and dock again at the station - you'll get the mission again.

NOTE: I hesitate to mention it because I guess people are happy to be making lots of money from this but there is another bug, related to re-taking the mission, ie I cashed in my 26M, re-got the mission and returned, re-stocked with all the items and hovered over the site in Mobius PVE - after a few hours, I checked and I'd got 2 new data scans, but my mission reward said 13M !! so I cashed in again - then re-got the mission and returned again, after an hour I'd got no new data scans but 3M in mission rewards.
I have been trying scans and combos myself in mobius and I'm sure other cmdrs have been getting that data too, but I've not got any new scans for a while.
I'm not actually sure that ANY part of the ruins site and mission is working as planned!

Don't get me wrong, I love Elite Dangerous and have invested many many hours( and money: ship kits, paint jobs and 2 accounts! ), I've explored and mined and traded etc, but the number of bugs and stability issues around this one element to the game is scary!!

 

[Jorki Rasalas]

Yeah, I though of the sites being in a geometric pattern, say a triangle since it would mean 3sites => all data.

However there are some problems with using this :

1) we do not know the plane which contains the triangle
2) we do not know the length between the three points.
3) Brute forcing the problem is very hard (would need a data set of all the systems in the area, with their coordinates, and search for equilateral triangles starting with the known system)*.


*It might be possible to do using the logfile / eddiscovery (will have a look see, because checking all the systems in a 150 lyr radius seems at least doable).

Yes. The relic pillar thingies. I think they are responsible for communication with other sites.

I agree, and since they dont have pointy tops (the relics would fall off!) then they should be termed pillars, whereas the data thingies are monoliths that happen also to be obelisks? Actually since they don't appear to have pointy tops (from memory) then none of these things are strictly obelisks but I suspect FD weren't too strict about the terminology.

 

[MadDogMurdock]

AhAh, I was waiting for someone, like "you", pointing out this obvious similarity
It seems we are going in the same direction then, however the MUST HAVE feature we are missing, is the Telepathy bit, where you somehow gather that knowledge without doing anything, like "you" are the client, no need for a device, or learning by reading. I mean, you get it passively, thanks to those "implants" they have developed. But I'm sure we are close as well

The information delivery method isn't the issue, the quality of the information is.

Just take the Ruins mystery as an example:
We have multiple maps and spreadsheets leading to overlapping, conflicting, and contradictory interpretations of the truth.
Add to that erroneous reporting, misinterpretations, theories based on little evidence, and general flaws in the 'operating rules'.

The result is confusion and that's when everyone involved has good intentions.
Now introduce deliberate misinformation, false claims, and general shennanigans.

Telepathic access to all this 'information' is hardly conducive to a functioning society.

 

[Han_Zen]

Surely the galactic plane that the ruins lie on is calculable from the lat/long, the orbital/spin parameters of the planet & the coordinates of the system?

Forget about the plane. I'm an idiot.

The towers does not draw a plane. They draw a cone, like this:

Z points to south pole star.

The network would then have to be a 3D shape, like a pyramid or something.

 

[DialBforBiscuit]

In the ruins, the big circle has openings for celestial POIs, Sun rise, moon rise etc. The smaller circle has a few bumps around it, as if a circle or half circle would fit there with a couple openings. What if those are local POIs? The openings are close together, maybe 30ish degrees with wiggle room? Point is, sets up possible lines between sites to make a triangle.

 

[Leo3ABP]

That would mean that they were originally from Earth. We just don't find any stuff there, because the AI cleaned the place after killing them.

Or.... humans are descendant of guardians, one of the arks maybe? It seem that a lot of their history, culture and even biology can be related to humans one way or another. Then..... maybe we should be looking for more clues back on Earth (Moon?) then?

Found this on 1 B A on exact ruins coordinates. My excitement knew no bounds when I saw it from ship from far away...

Spoiler