General / Off-Topic Building a wall

[FuzzySpider]

I think he is referring to the immigration ban which might be violating the constitution. Trump admin has already declared it would defy court order if it interferes with their agenda...so there is that too.

He already has in the instance of at least one Iranian.

So it's official; you have a president with no respect for the rule of law and no interest in constitutional barriers or separation of powers. He believes in his ultimate authority.

The USA is now led by a despot. As outrageous and fanciful as it may seem this is exactly what is going on. That something is unthinkable doesn't make it impossible.

I think that, unless Trump is either removed or controlled within the next few weeks, American democracy will be seriously imperilled, and Trump will leave the nation fundamentally damaged, perhaps even fractured completely.

 

[Adept]

The USA is now led by a despot. As outrageous and fanciful as it may seem this is exactly what is going on. That something is unthinkable doesn't make it impossible.

I think that, unless Trump is either removed or controlled within the next few weeks, American democracy will be seriously imperilled, and Trump will leave the nation fundamentally damaged, perhaps even fractured completely.

This is 100% true. Every day he remains in power adds to the damage.

If the courts or branches of government can manage to remove him from power soon, that will show the strength of the democracy. If they can't or won't, then a catastrophic weakness will have been revealed

 

[Sunleader]

What about withholding foreign aid until the wall is complete?

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In what way, Sunleader? Are you referring to the wall?

Article 3 of the US Constitution Guarantees the Courts the Right the Review and Judge upon Laws and Demand that the Courts Decisions are Respected.
But Trump has Openly ignored the Courts Ruling on his Immigration Bans.


The First Amendment of the US Constitution Guarantees the Right to Follow any Religion and Practice in the USA.
This Includes but is not Limited to Building Churches etc
This also Explicitly States that the Government is NOT ALLOWED to Favor or Discriminate against ANY Religion.
But Trump wants to Ban Muslimes. And has in Fact Banned Muslime not only from immigration but even by removing VISA from Damn Translators that Served for the US Army in Crisis Regions.
Needless to say he also repeatedly said he wants to Ban the Building of Mosques etc.


The Fourth Amendment Guarantees the Right of the People to not be Unjustly Searched or have their Belongings Seized.
But To Build the Wall on Mexicos Borders. The Government will Seize the Land and Belongings of People.


The Eleventh Amendment Prohibits that another State is Sued on an US Court by the Individual of another State.
But under Trump it was permitted to Tribes from Herero to Sue Germany. (No Decision yet)




So yes.
The Wall is Indirectly Included.
This was by the way also Broken by Bush. When he Build the Border Fence to Mexico. As he also Seized Land. Including some Graveyards of the Indians.


Trump has Broken the Consitution Once with the Muslime Ban.
And then a Second Time when he Refused to Abide by the Court Ruling which said that this Muslime Ban is against Constitution.

Moreover he Declared that he will Break it two more Times.
By allowing US Courts to Rule on Foreign States. (Which these States will not Accept of Course)
And by Seizing the Land along the Mexican Border he needs to Build the Wall.

 

[Monk]

This is 100% true. Every day he remains in power adds to the damage.

If the courts or branches of government can manage to remove him from power soon, that will show the strength of the democracy. If they can't or won't, then a catastrophic weakness will have been revealed

It is possible to remove him without using extra powers of the judiciary or following impeachment by legislature. The 25th Amendment Section 4 gives Congress the power to remove him.

Whenever the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive departments or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the Vice President shall immediately assume the powers and duties of the office as Acting President.

Thereafter, when the President transmits to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives his written declaration that no inability exists, he shall resume the powers and duties of his office unless the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive department or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit within four days to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office. Thereupon Congress shall decide the issue, assembling within forty-eight hours for that purpose if not in session. If the Congress, within twenty-one days after receipt of the latter written declaration, or, if Congress is not in session, within twenty-one days after Congress is required to assemble, determines by two-thirds vote of both Houses that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the Vice President shall continue to discharge the same as Acting President; otherwise, the President shall resume the powers and duties of his office.

Right now, everything rests on Congress to pull the plug before it gets too bad. Now, I don't have a lot of faith in the House and its cadre of Tea Party of Republicans...but the Senate, thanks the founding fathers for putting this moderating force in government, is already expressing, in a bi-partisan manner, great concerns over recent actions by the administration. Remember the Senate also has an investigation ongoing into Trump administration's involvement with FSB. However, and this is worth noting, all of the House is up for re-election in 2018. Also, identifying illegal gerrymandering is sort of becoming a trend among Federal Judges and re-districting is happening in Wisconsin and North Carolina, right now. If this catches on, a lot of representatives, including democrats, will lose their "safe" districts and will actually have to compete for the hearts and minds of their constituents. Knowing these things, it might behoove these reps to not stand in the way of removing a despot.

 

[Adept]

If this catches on, a lot of representatives, including democrats, will lose their "safe" districts and will actually have to compete for the hearts and minds of their constituents. Knowing these things, it might behoove these reps to not stand in the way of removing a despot.

If they are such a lily-livered bunch, then the American government is rotten through-and-through, and it deserves to fall. For now, I expect that the courage to stop Trump's madness will be found. If not, then I think we're watching the beginning of the end for the country.

 

[Javert]

I don't know if there is any truth in this, but I've heard that a group of prospective immigrants from Mexico have been perusing a map of the American continent and its adjoining water masses and elevations.

Rumours are that they are experimenting with some revolutionary new technology, never before seen in the United States, in an attempt to defeat Donald Trump's wall.

Spoiler

 

[Bomba Luigi]

I just really hope we reach the point of "can't get worse" soon. I'm not very hopefull tough, that orange guy is way too nuts.

 

[Monk]

If they are such a lily-livered bunch, then the American government is rotten through-and-through, and it deserves to fall. For now, I expect that the courage to stop Trump's madness will be found. If not, then I think we're watching the beginning of the end for the country.

This is certainly a test for what was created hundreds of years ago. The constitution was designed to prevent despotism and consolidation of power. It is a difficult balance, as you want to give the people real impactful power (house of representatives) while also checking them against harmful populism (Senate and Courts).

Now, the balance has been eroded. Starting with the electoral college which, in an attempt to prevent consolidation of power in one or two population centers, has given excessive voting power to states with low populations. Also, gerrymandering that looks like this

gives you state legislatures that look like Wisconsin where representation is almost entirely GOP but the populace is more divided down the middle.

 

[Adept]

I don't know if there is any truth in this, but I've heard that a group of prospective immigrants from Mexico have been perusing a map of the American continent and its adjoining water masses and elevations.

Rumours are that they are experimenting with some revolutionary new technology, never before seen in the United States, in an attempt to defeat Donald Trump's wall.

Spoiler

http://i.imgur.com/GpkdNeo.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/GYPV2xM.jpg

I feel I should link pictures of a ladder and a shovel.

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This is certainly a test for what was created hundreds of years ago. The constitution was designed to prevent despotism and consolidation of power. It is a difficult balance, as you want to give the people real impactful power (house of representatives) while also checking them against harmful populism (Senate and Courts).

Now, the balance has been eroded. Starting with the electoral college which, in an attempt to prevent consolidation of power in one or two population centers, has given excessive voting power to states with low populations. Also, gerrymandering that looks like this

https://img.washingtonpost.com/wp-a.../blogs/wonkblog/files/2015/03/gerry.png&w=480

gives you state legislatures that look like Wisconsin where representation is almost entirely GOP but the populace is more divided down the middle.

The gerrymandering picture shows the howling madness of the US / UK style "first past the post" voting. Move to a *favorite expletive here* proportional representation already!!! It will give you a sane split. If that area selects 5 representatives, it will be 3 blue, 2 red without any monkey business. It's not *beeping* rocket science, now is it?

 

[ArchEmperor]

This is 100% true. Every day he remains in power adds to the damage.

If the courts or branches of government can manage to remove him from power soon, that will show the strength of the democracy. If they can't or won't, then a catastrophic weakness will have been revealed

Seriously.... you are 100% wrong. He was elected by the people. How the hell can you lefties live with yourselves when lying and making up things all the time?

NOBODY IS GOING TO REMOVE AN ELECTED PRESIDENT JUST BECAUSE YOU LEFTIES WANT IT. Get it through your minds that your side lost the election. PERIOD. Now stand up and support your president or you will be the fascist you claim not to be.

 

[Sunleader]

I feel I should link pictures of a ladder and a shovel.

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The gerrymandering picture shows the howling madness of the US / UK style "first past the post" voting. Move to a *favorite expletive here* proportional representation already!!! It will give you a sane split. If that area selects 5 representatives, it will be 3 blue, 2 red without any monkey business. It's not *beeping* rocket science, now is it?

Dont forget the Rope *gg*

 

[Sunleader]

Seriously.... you are 100% wrong. He was elected by the people. How the hell can you lefties live with yourselves when lying and making up things all the time?

NOBODY IS GOING TO REMOVE AN ELECTED PRESIDENT JUST BECAUSE YOU LEFTIES WANT IT. Get it through your minds that your side lost the election. PERIOD. Now stand up and support your president or you will be the fascist you claim not to be.

1.
Actually the one who Won Majority Vote was Clinton.
Trump only Won because the System does not go by Majority but by the Won States.
So if Candidate A Wins 26 States with 51% and the other Candidate Wins 24 States with 99% then Candidate A will be President despite Candidate B having the Votes of about 70% or more of the Population.

2.
Hes from Finland. So its not his President lol.
And just so you know. Even if he was American. The Constitution of the USA actually Grants him the Right to be against President Trump and Openly Voice it on the Streets and even Protest and Advertise against Trump.

At least so far. The USA is not Turkey where Opposition is Prohibited by now.
Albeit it might not be long before it is.


3.
Left Wingers can NEVER be Fascists.
Fascism is Exclusively Right Wing.
Pls learn what these Political Directions even mean before you throw them around.
Autocratic 100% Equality System is Called Communists.
And Autocratic 100% Freedom System is Called Anarchists.

Fascism requires to be Right Wing. You cannot become one if your Left Wing even if you Try

 

[Monk]

Only pawns and lemmings "stand up and support your president." They are always first to be exploited.

He is not my king. He is not my adored leader. He is not my commander, I am not a soldier.

He is an executive manager that the USA selected to manage the vast bureaucracy involved with supporting a country of 300 Million, mind relations with other nations and to be the civilian leading the military for the will and security of the People.

It is a citizen's duty to be skeptical of the president and to ensure that they are representing the best interests of all people in the nation. I didn't "stand up and support" Obama. In fact, in his first months as president I was already talking and posting openly about how his deference to the right, middle ground approach to healthcare, and way too small stimulus was going to haunt him forever for not doing more with the outsize political capital he had at the time. I criticized him for paying too much consideration to his blackness when choosing to be less forceful in negotiations (that one really gets me as a big brown guy. I often have to control/feminize my tone and let people speak first lest I be labeled as someone trying to dominate a conversation with hostility). I thought Bush should have been tried for war crimes and I think Clinton should have resigned after lying to America.

Only basic tribal type people "fall in line" behind their president. I attempt, and probably fail, to be a bit more evolved than that.

 

[ArchEmperor]

1.
Actually the one who Won Majority Vote was Clinton.
Trump only Won because the System does not go by Majority but by the Won States.
So if Candidate A Wins 26 States with 51% and the other Candidate Wins 24 States with 99% then Candidate A will be President despite Candidate B having the Votes of about 70% or more of the Population.

2.
Hes from Finland. So its not his President lol.
And just so you know. Even if he was American. The Constitution of the USA actually Grants him the Right to be against President Trump and Openly Voice it on the Streets and even Protest and Advertise against Trump.

At least so far. The USA is not Turkey where Opposition is Prohibited by now.
Albeit it might not be long before it is.


3.
Left Wingers can NEVER be Fascists.
Fascism is Exclusively Right Wing.
Pls learn what these Political Directions even mean before you throw them around.
Autocratic 100% Equality System is Called Communists.
And Autocratic 100% Freedom System is Called Anarchists.

Fascism requires to be Right Wing. You cannot become one if your Left Wing even if you Try

1. That is how every election in the US goes. One wins popularity and the other wins the electorials. Nothing new here.

2. Oh. Then I am on his side.

3. What is that evil things that lefties are doing being called then? That is what I mean: The evil of lefties.
If fascism is good, then I do not understand why you call fascism something bad then. Because righties are good and loving and a mother who hugs her child: Rightwing in a nutshell. Love and understanding, opposite of running around in black and red on the streets causing havoc like lefties always do.

 

[Yaffle]

Folks

This is clearly emotive, as all political threads are, but there's no need for personal comments or attacks. Leave those out.

 

[Monk]

Just the fact that you use lefties and righties shows how little you understand on the subject and lends to the fact that you don't see the immense nuance in American politics.

Anyway. No. Not every election in the US goes that way. Obama won electoral and popular votes in both terms. So did Bill Clinton and Bush in his second term. Oh and HW Bush, Carter, Nixon and Reagan. In fact the only presidents that won like Trump are John Quincy Adams (1824, who lost both, and was selected by delegates), Rutherford B. Hayes (1876), Benjamin Harrison (1888), George W. Bush (2000) and Donald J. Trump (2016). You are so obviously talking from a place of ignorance, it hurts my sides.

Please do more research before injecting such toxic attitudes.

(Yaffle, I didn't see your post until after posting. I shall move on)

 

[ArchEmperor]

Just the fact that you use lefties and righties shows how little you understand on the subject and lends to the fact that you don't see the immense nuance in American politics.

Anyway. No. Not every election in the US goes that way. Obama won electoral and popular votes in both terms. So did Bill Clinton and Bush in his second term. Oh and HW Bush, Carter, Nixon and Reagan. In fact the only presidents that won like Trump are John Quincy Adams (1824, who lost both, and was selected by delegates), Rutherford B. Hayes (1876), Benjamin Harrison (1888), George W. Bush (2000) and Donald J. Trump (2016). You are so obviously talking from a place of ignorance, it hurts my sides.

Please do more research before injecting such toxic attitudes.

That makes President Donald Trump a very rare and precious president. I am in awe of his accomplishments so far. Everyone is so happy and there is no wars and the economy is going through the roof! It is like paradise after 8 years of hell before.

So what do I call the lefties then? I need to call them something or else this thread should be closed from lack of sides.

 

[Monk]

That makes President Donald Trump a very rare and precious president. I am in awe of his accomplishments so far. Everyone is so happy and there is no wars and the economy is going through the roof! It is like paradise after 8 years of hell before.

So what do I call the lefties then? I need to call them something or else this thread should be closed from lack of sides.

How about don't use the labels and debate the issues? You'll find that if you remove left, right, liberal, conservative from as much of your political discourse as possible, then you will have much greater success convincing people who might be willing to agree with if you hadn't come out labeling them in the first place.

Donald is rare, I'd debate precious...well, maybe precious in that short bus kinda way

Everyone is not happy. Approval is at 39%, a historic low. 51% disapprove and that is rising. You may be in awe of his accomplishments and that is your prerogative but the common opinion is negative and growing angry. The economy is not going through the roof...even as much as the democrats want to paint the Obama numbers as something to be excited about. The real truth is that the American middle-class is still struggling and so far, Trump hasn't done anything that would make an appreciable change in that predicament. Honestly, neither party is presenting the solution I think needs to happen, but that is for another day.

 

[Adept]

Now stand up and support your president or you will be the fascist you claim not to be.

He was not elected to be dictator, as he seems to think. You clearly do not understand what is happening. Feel free march to the tune of your wannabe-fascist overlord, but don't expect the non-authoritarians in your country to fall in line just because you use capital letters like the Tweeter in Chief.

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Folks

This is clearly emotive, as all political threads are, but there's no need for personal comments or attacks. Leave those out.

I didn't see this reminder before I posted. If you feel the post is out of line, feel free to delete. If you do though, I suggest deleting the one I replied to as well.

 

[ArchEmperor]

He was not elected to be dictator, as he seems to think. You clearly do not understand what is happening. Feel free march to the tune of your wannabe-fascist overlord, but don't expect the non-authoritarians in your country to fall in line just because you use capital letters like the Tweeter in Chief.

It is only happening in your head. Nothing bad is happening for everyone else. This notion that something 'bad' is going on is just silly.