General / Off-Topic Brexit: MPs overwhelmingly back Article 50 bill by 498 votes to 114

I admit it feels like we doing a deal with the devi8l, but what choice do we have? Go back to EU and have them impose freedom of movement on us? Thanks but no thanks...its one option that includes very few alternatives and while distasteful, is still preferable than going back to the bloc. Told ye before, I will never accept total freedom of movement that the EU says we must have to remain i the single market...I will not, cannot in any frame of mind support that.

That isn't a condition. Total movement of EU citizens is a condition, but that isn't a problem as they're subject to the same rules and restrictions as the population of the UK. Indeed that is the point of the single market and is why it wouldn't work without freedom of movement.

If it means doing a deal with the devil, then so be it. Not like we have a huge list of choices, is it? By all means, suggest an alternative as dealing with north korea would probably be less distasteful, but it is what it is ^

The alternative is to admit a mistake and try to correct it.

The NHS is up for grabs. State run healthcare, a very European-centric model, will be one of the first things dismantled by the new order. If you can afford private healthcare (I get it through my Missus) health services might well improve. If you can't, if you're on low income or benefits, then you're going to be screwed. And that's just one area that faces upheaval.

Please, do not misunderstand me here:

I fully endorse and support your vote to leave. (as I said here).

I am not saying that you shouldn't have voted to leave. I am telling you that you've voted to screw the country up. That's ok, were I in your position I would have done the same. But please, do not expect things to get any better and certainly don't expect the UK to gain any sovereignty. The UK is about to get a lot poorer with a lot less self control.
 

Minonian

Banned
The thing is, you can't revert the the situation back how it was, and hope a good result. Now the UK going to learn this in the hard way. If something gone to the mists of time? than it's better to leave on that way, its not happened without reason.
 
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Anyway...I suppose its all still the fault of the right wing extremists? I even have plans to get a swastika tattooed on my forehead and shave all my hair off before I go bald, and wear my old doc martins...may as well act the part yes? That seems to be the current label being bandied around ^

If you do, own up to it. Don't pretend the libruls made you do it.

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I admit it feels like we doing a deal with the devi8l, but what choice do we have? Go back to EU and have them impose freedom of movement on us? Thanks but no thanks...its one option that includes very few alternatives and while distasteful, is still preferable than going back to the bloc. Told ye before, I will never accept total freedom of movement that the EU says we must have to remain i the single market...

What on Earth are you on about? There was no "total freedom of movement" demand before the Brexit, nor is there one now. Nothing was changing for the worse, outside of the fevered imagination of the UKIP agitators.

What are you smoking today man? o_O
 
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Ian Phillips

Volunteer Moderator
I have very fond memories of those baked beans. Less of my Greek roommate's attempts to deep fry everything in tons of olive oil. :D
Maybe we can haz a deal? I come back for ze beans, they stay out with their nasty oil?


(Edit and more serious note: I saw somewhere that brexit means restricting the right of abode for EU citizens? I think the implications of that are really hard to fathom right now - there has been so much going on since 1975 and thinking that a) all the expats will return to the UK to fill empty positions while b) UK won't lose some talented people might prove painfully wrong overall)

You're right on this.

I certainly have no intention of returning to England.
 
So... If some people want to cripple the whole country it must be respected?

I understand your point of view. But it is the majority which makes tilt the balance. There must be a majority and a minority for that the word "democracy" have a sense.
I do not currently see, the UK paralyzed. And for the future we will see
 
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verminstar

Banned
If you do, own up to it.

What are you smoking today man? o_O

Its called bubblecheese...its particularly good at controlling what I call the shakes...its very painful, ye can trust me on that if nothing else.

Own up to something? Haha...and make it easy fer ye? Thats teasing the anarchist side of my nature ^

The Eu wanted many restrictions lifted while I wanted more put in place. I dont like being told what to do as ye might have guessed and I really did feel like the EU was dictating their ideals as to how we should be living. In an ideal world, I might even agree with them...but its not and I dont. That alone wouldnt have been enough to make me vote out, but something else had to happen that broke the camels back as it were.

We are all in this together...fer the rest of my reasons, look to the man who said that. Taking the previous couple years of his failures and seedy little off shore tax scams, along with a whole host of others who all went public with their support fer the EU...thats what set my internal alarm bells off. There wasnt a snowballs chance in hell any of those people cared a squat about the UK as a nation...they cared only about making more money and keeping it a secret. The elites...the establishment call them what ye want...they threatened me and tried to tell me what I had to vote for.

Told ye...I have issues with being threatened and dictated to and especially not by them. If they wanted to remain, then taking a whole host of other little les into consideration, my choice was practically made for me.

Quit trying to focus on just one reason like immigration, as there were a host of little things that made up a single reason to vote out ^

Anyway...we done now...we finally getting out...now the hard part begins and maybe ye get to say I told ye so...or maybe I get that chance...isnt this exciting?
 
The entire point of a representative democracy is that suitably qualified and rational people act as a bullwark against populism of this sort. Hence the reason we don't have such barbaric practices as execution, public flogging etc. Parliament has not only failed in its duty, it has failed to justify its existence. The vote to return sovereignty to Parliament has, quite ironically, slashed the throat of parliamentary sovereignty.
?

Democracy gives me a vote to cast how I see fit. I am intelligent enough to think for myself and to not be manipulated by those people, or trends, or powers that be are considered *popular*. I can look past the scare mongering, spin and political spite that makes up our modern day government.

I voted out because I believe it will be better for the UK. You don't respect my right as a free independent citizen of the UK to cast my vote how I see fit - but you are adamant that I should respect yours. How has parliamnet failed in it's duty? Explain how democratic it is to ignore the majority vote of the people. Who are these 'suitably qualified and rational people'? From where I sit the whole government does not give 2 whatevers about the man on the street, and hasn't done for years - nor will they any time soon. That Theresa May, a staunch stay supporter, is following the wishes of the people has actually started to restore my faith in our 'politcal elite'....
 
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Democracy gives me a vote to cast how I see fit. I am intelligent enough to think for myself and to not be manipulated by those people, or trends, or powers that be are considered *popular*. I can look past the scare mongering, spin and political spite that makes up our modern day government.

So thinketh all. Nobody believes they are wrong, or they'd change their beliefs.

Nobody thinks they're susceptible to propaganda either. It's always someone else. Incidentally, intelligence by no means makes you immune to propaganda. Believing that makes you more susceptible, as you're now less likely to consider that you might have been hoodwinked.

I voted out because I believe it will be better for the UK.

Yes. And that's the problem. Belief is no match for experience and expertise. The people who actually know about this stuff have repeatedly and virtually unanimously said it was a terrible idea. But belief trumped knowledge in this case.

You don't respect my right as a free independent citizen of the UK to cast my vote how I see fit - but you are adamant that I should respect yours.

Odd how you come to that conclusion, seeing as I don't vote.

How has parliamnet failed in it's duty?

Let me hand you over to Edmund Burke, he's a good guy, unfortunately dead....

“It ought to be the happiness and glory of a representative to live in the strictest union, the closest correspondence, and the most unreserved communication with his constituents. Their wishes ought to have great weight with him; their opinion, high respect; their business, unremitted attention. It is his duty to sacrifice his repose, his pleasures, his satisfactions, to theirs; and above all, ever, and in all cases, to prefer their interest to his own. But his unbiassed opinion, his mature judgment, his enlightened conscience, he ought not to sacrifice to you, to any man, or to any set of men living. These he does not derive from your pleasure; no, nor from the law and the constitution. They are a trust from Providence, for the abuse of which he is deeply answerable. Your representative owes you, not his industry only, but his judgment; and he betrays, instead of serving you, if he sacrifices it to your opinion….

“To deliver an opinion, is the right of all men; that of constituents is a weighty and respectable opinion, which a representative ought always to rejoice to hear; and which he ought always most seriously to consider. But authoritative instructions; mandates issued, which the member is bound blindly and implicitly to obey, to vote, and to argue for, though contrary to the clearest conviction of his judgment and conscience, these are things utterly unknown to the laws of this land, and which arise from a fundamental mistake of the whole order and tenor of our constitution.”

That is the basis of a Parliamentary democracy. That is the reason there isn't an iReferendum app that can instantly defer all decisions to the public.

Explain how democratic it is to ignore the majority vote of the people.

Because we live in a representative democracy, not a direct democracy. See above.

Who are these 'suitably qualified and rational people'?

Experts. Civil servants, diplomats, and suitably qualified and rational politicians.

From where I sit the whole government does not give 2 whatevers about the man on the street, and hasn't done for years - nor will they any time soon.

Agreed. And that is why I actually do respect and support your vote to leave. But I want you to own that vote, not pretend you did it to make things better. The referendum was a push back against the status quo for many of those who voted leave, and that I understand.

However, people voting to kick out foreigners whilst claiming to not be racist, or people voting for national sovereignty whilst typing on keyboards made in China, plugged into computers made with silicon procured in California, and turned into chips designed in Korea, all whilst drinking coffee from Brazil, aren't qualified to vote. These things come because of international trade. International trade happens because of negotiation and treaty. Any treaty is, by definition, a ceding of some sovereignty.

That Theresa May, a staunch stay supporter, is following the wishes of the people has actually started to restore my faith in our 'politcal elite'....

Theresa May is a woman obsessed with kicking out foreigners. Remember that speech? A "hostile atmosphere"? She's not doing this for you, she's doing this for her own twisted ideas on who should be allowed in "her" country.
 
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Democracy gives me a vote to cast how I see fit. I am intelligent enough to think for myself and to not be manipulated by those people, or trends, or powers that be are considered *popular*. I can look past the scare mongering, spin and political spite that makes up our modern day government.

I voted out because I believe it will be better for the UK. You don't respect my right as a free independent citizen of the UK to cast my vote how I see fit - but you are adamant that I should respect yours. How has parliamnet failed in it's duty? Explain how democratic it is to ignore the majority vote of the people. Who are these 'suitably qualified and rational people'? From where I sit the whole government does not give 2 whatevers about the man on the street, and hasn't done for years - nor will they any time soon. That Theresa May, a staunch stay supporter, is following the wishes of the people has actually started to restore my faith in our 'politcal elite'....

If the majority of the MPs of the sovereign parliament believe that a course of action will be detrimental to the country and its citizens, shouldn't they argue and vote for the outcome they believe serves their people best? Going instead by the slim majority in an advisory referendum does seem like a dereliction of duty.
 
If the majority of the MPs of the sovereign parliament believe that a course of action will be detrimental to the country and its citizens, shouldn't they argue and vote for the outcome they believe serves their people best? Going instead by the slim majority in an advisory referendum does seem like a dereliction of duty.

Representative Democracy.

Represent the people you are are elected to serve. - A controversial view amongst the totalitarian fascists I know.

If it is shown, by what ever means, that the people you who asked you to represent and serve them to to respect their views. That you should tell them to sod off cause they're thick working class monkeys who are to stupid to have a view. Then you are the one who has failed to understand two vital concepts:

Represent.
Democracy.

Now who's the fascist?

Apologies - I'm bored (and a little bit sqiffy.) The amount of Intelligence on the board is beyond dispute. The lack of understanding astonishing.
 
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If the majority of the MPs of the sovereign parliament believe that a course of action will be detrimental to the country and its citizens, shouldn't they argue and vote for the outcome they believe serves their people best? Going instead by the slim majority in an advisory referendum does seem like a dereliction of duty.

Yes - they should - but they haven't argued against it, and the vote shows they are in favour.
 
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Representative Democracy.

Represent the people you are are elected to serve. - A controversial view amongst the totalitarian fascists I know.

If it is shown, by what ever means, that the people you who asked you to represent and serve them to to respect their views. That you should tell them to sod off cause they're thick working class monkeys who are to stupid to have a view. Then you are the one who has failed to understand two vital concepts:

Represent.
Democracy.

Now who's the fascist?

Apologies - I'm bored (and a little bit sqiffy.) The amount of Intelligence on the board is beyond dispute. The lack of understanding astonishing.

Do you actually understand what Fascism is? You use it as a meaningless slur, either because you don't, or because you want to deflect from your own position.

Russia is the classic case in this. Ever since "the Great Patriotic War", all official enemies tend to get labelled fascists. In Putin's time the state has of course left all trappings of communism, and is run as a authoritarian plutocracy. The Nasi movement (which is very remenicient of the Hitler Jugend) displays pictures of the ideological opponents at their camps, and declares then "fascists".

To the far right it's very convenient to call everybody they don't like fascists. They can't be that themselves then, because clearly they exist to fight fascists, right?
 
So thinketh all. Nobody believes they are wrong, or they'd change their beliefs.

Nobody thinks they're susceptible to propaganda either. It's always someone else. Incidentally, intelligence by no means makes you immune to propaganda. Believing that makes you more susceptible, as you're now less likely to consider that you might have been hoodwinked.


Yes. And that's the problem. Belief is no match for experience and expertise. The people who actually know about this stuff have repeatedly and virtually unanimously said it was a terrible idea. But belief trumped knowledge in this case.


Agreed. And that is why I actually do respect and support your vote to leave. But I want you to own that vote, not pretend you did it to make things better. The referendum was a push back against the status quo for many of those who voted leave, and that I understand.

However, people voting to kick out foreigners whilst claiming to not be racist, or people voting for national sovereignty whilst typing on keyboards made in China, plugged into computers made with silicon procured in California, and turned into chips designed in Korea, all whilst drinking coffee from Brazil, aren't qualified to vote. These things come because of international trade. International trade happens because of negotiation and treaty. Any treaty is, by definition, a ceding of some sovereignty.

Theresa May is a woman obsessed with kicking out foreigners. Remember that speech? A "hostile atmosphere"? She's not doing this for you, she's doing this for her own twisted ideas on who should be allowed in "her" country.

Each side had thier experts... but still, very few facts were given - at least when you look at them from the point of view of the average voter like myself. At the end I had to vote for what I believed to be the right decision.

Talking of propoganda - why are reciting the whole 'vote out means you're racist' rubbish?

Your tone and comments suggest that you are stay supporter. So why didn't you vote? You seem far more clued up on the whole affair than I am so I don't understand why you'd abstain. And yes, I own my vote and the responsibility that entails. Can you say the same?
 
Do you actually understand what Fascism is? You use it as a meaningless slur, either because you don't, or because you want to deflect from your own position.

Russia is the classic case in this. Ever since "the Great Patriotic War", all official enemies tend to get labelled fascists. In Putin's time the state has of course left all trappings of communism, and is run as a authoritarian plutocracy. The Nasi movement (which is very remenicient of the Hitler Jugend) displays pictures of the ideological opponents at their camps, and declares then "fascists".

To the far right it's very convenient to call everybody they don't like fascists. They can't be that themselves then, because clearly they exist to fight fascists, right?

Astonishing!






Yeah, took me a while - what can I say I'm bladdered and wit isn't my natural repartee. Take care Adept you make me laugh, not as much as Fluffy but not far off.
 
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It's funny. I remember one or two years ago lamenting the fact tribalism seemed to be an intractable human trait. I was assured by someone that everything was great and things like the EU demonstrated that people could and would work together. One or two years later, the EU is falling apart, even the UK is falling apart and who knows, maybe even the US will fall apart. Thanks Humanity! I can always rely on you to be crap. :D

So... If some people want to cripple the whole country it must be respected?

Yes, that is the nature of Democracy. It's why I don't condone the protest vs Trump, the time to protest was in the ballot box but 50% of people didn't bother. It's too late now.
 
If it is shown, by what ever means, that the people you who asked you to represent and serve them to to respect their views.

Respect their views, not carry out their views.

There is majority support in this country for bringing back the death penalty. It isn't carried out because it is understood to be worthless, barbaric, with a significant risk of executing innocent people. As I said, that's the point of a representative democracy.

Each side had thier experts... but still, very few facts were given - at least when you look at them from the point of view of the average voter like myself. At the end I had to vote for what I believed to be the right decision.

Leave had no experts.

Talking of propoganda - why are reciting the whole 'vote out means you're racist' rubbish?

No. I didn't. Please re-read what I wrote. Those who voted to leave to evict foreigners from the UK are racist. I specifically implied that not everyone did vote in that manner.

Your tone and comments suggest that you are stay supporter. So why didn't you vote? You seem far more clued up on the whole affair than I am so I don't understand why you'd abstain. And yes, I own my vote and the responsibility that entails. Can you say the same?

I think voting endorses the current system we have, which is less of a democracy and more of a DailyMailocracy (or mobocracy if you will). Until current affairs outlets are forced to be honest there can be no democracy. Furthermore, intelligence and knowledge needs to be respected and admired once more, not mistrusted and vilified. This is the part of the Trump/Brexit saga that terrifies me - the commitment to anti-intellectualism is one of the core tenets of fascism.

EDIT: Question. If remain had won by 52%, would you then happily accept the Euro, Schengen, and the loss of the rebate the UK has? Or would you consider such a close vote to be an important message that a sizable chunk of the population doesn't want closer ties with Europe?
 
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Yes - they should - but they haven't argued against it, and the vote shows they are in favour.

Yes, a vote with a clear majority in the parliament but also a vote with a clear majority in the referendum

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Representative Democracy.

Represent the people you are are elected to serve. - A controversial view amongst the totalitarian fascists I know.

If it is shown, by what ever means, that the people you who asked you to represent and serve them to to respect their views. That you should tell them to sod off cause they're thick working class monkeys who are to stupid to have a view. Then you are the one who has failed to understand two vital concepts:

Represent.
Democracy.

Makes sense
 
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