Gunner = Arcade Action Cam for the 12 yr olds?

[Mystixx Foxx]

Whilst I do understand that in every game, there's always going to be someone who doesn't like a certain point of a new update or changes in balance, gameplay, economy, etc, etc, (You can't please them all, right?) I have never, ever heard about such a silly complaint as "immersion breaking" and "Breaking the rules of the Lore"
Obviously, there's a huge fanbase out there that's really in it for the "Space simulator" and not the "Ever evolving online multiplayer video-game in a fictional world" that has a hard time letting go of their "space cowboy/universe explorer/poor astrounat gone trading in an adder" fantasies.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not telling anyone how to play their game, nor trying to humiliate the people in their home-made commader seats, but here's a thought: You don't actually have to use any new content. Noone of the new updates will affect your gameplay and how you as a person view the universe (Unless you happen upon a cobra shooting missile backwards, in wich case you should probably just close your eyes whilst engangin supercruise) You're already immersing yourself at a great depth, playing pretend, just pretend noone of this excist!

 

[Kermit Laphroaig]

I mean I would be all for an option that just turns off any kind of fun for grindy non-realistic simulation all that you could possibly want and more, but there's already a Solo Mode.

And even that doesn't shut complainers up. [???]

 

[bitstorm]

The most fun I've had in Planetside 2 was flying a Liberator while a good friend of mine was manning the ventral anti-tank 150mm, which is controlled from a first person pov, with a rather tight fov and limited arc of fire. Using it effectively requires a fair amount of cooperation between the pilot and the gunner, and it took us time and effort to get to learn and work together to the point where we're confident we can engage even fast air targets with it. There's been a lot of frustration on the way there, plenty of stupid deaths due to us fumbling and failing to communicate, not knowing what the other can do, not knowing what our aircraft can do... But more than anything there was a lot of fun. Learning and improving together is fun and more than makes up for the frustration involved. I'm fairly sure we would have gotten bored of it very fast if instead the game was just about picking a target in 3rd person view and letting the game do all the aiming and shooting for us.

I'm not sure it's a fair comparison, isn't that firing at ground targets and isn't the ship going to be mostly stable? I mean it's not going to routinely pitch 360 while turning to track a target is it?

It seems like there will be an element of cooperation required, that the gunner is acting as a spotter, I mean in the Corvette the class 4s won't be turrets.

Skill cap I don't know, yes maybe lower, I don't know. But the game's easy mode anyway in a Corvette isn't it, even more so in a crewed Corvette, maybe switch to a smaller ship? Or a ship with turrets all on one side so your pilot has to coordinate to give you a shot?

 

[DawdlingEgg]

Sorry - I don't see your point. We both purchased a first person title, I did it because I don't want to play a third person game. I'm now getting cheap third person content in the game I purchased due to its 1st person gameplay focus. I'm not oppossed to you having an option to man a turret via a third person camera, but I am annoyed and feeling slightly cheated to be forced (if I want to use that feature - which I did, very much so) to use a camera mode I purposely purchased this game to avoid.

So no, we do not agree.

You know you can still play first person mode all you want, right? This does not take away your first person gameplay. You can avoid third person the entire game and still play the way you want. Nothing has changed for you if you don't want it to. You bought a first person game and you still have it. You are being forced to do nothing. You are not a victim.

 

[The Wallet Inspector]

Whilst I do understand that in every game, there's always going to be someone who doesn't like a certain point of a new update or changes in balance, gameplay, economy, etc, etc, (You can't please them all, right?) I have never, ever heard about such a silly complaint as "immersion breaking" and "Breaking the rules of the Lore"
Obviously, there's a huge fanbase out there that's really in it for the "Space simulator" and not the "Ever evolving online multiplayer video-game in a fictional world" that has a hard time letting go of their "space cowboy/universe explorer/poor astrounat gone trading in an adder" fantasies.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not telling anyone how to play their game, nor trying to humiliate the people in their home-made commader seats, but here's a thought: You don't actually have to use any new content. Noone of the new updates will affect your gameplay and how you as a person view the universe (Unless you happen upon a cobra shooting missile backwards, in wich case you should probably just close your eyes whilst engangin supercruise) You're already immersing yourself at a great depth, playing pretend, just pretend noone of this excist!

Cool story?

 

[duffbeeeer]

Hmm it's interesting, I suppose if you're advertising multicrew you'd have thought it'd be only in the same game mode.

But in all honestly if I were Frontier I would make it cross solo/group/open. Like a solo playes can just join a multicrew regardless.

Sure the odd "mode purist" might get their knickers in a twist, but I think the pros would vastly outweigh the cons.

Yeah, I actually assumed that. But you are right. It should be no problem connecting to it via solo/provate too. The UI showed no signs of any distinct elements to support the choice of flying open or private multi tho. Maybe I missed it.

 

[Limoncello Lizard]

But having like a "real" 360 degree cam which is not even existant (or can you shoot it down?) is by all means totally destroying any immersion (for me)

ED has at least some nanotechnology available. So covering the surface of your spaceship in a photosensitive layer wouldn't be too hard to do. It wouldn't be visible, but would have the effect of having a high definition 3D camera from any part of the surface of the ship. It would also be very difficult to completely destroy without destroying the ship first.

 

[Jynessa Loraeyn]

This was trialled pre Alpha and FD decided that it was something they didn't want as game-play rapidly devolved to "follow the arrow".

Yes, that's exactly what I thought was the case - because that has happened on literally every other space sim I think I've played. Not having those little UI arrows was for me a genuine stroke of genius - suddenly, when an enemy was behind me, I was ratcheting down the range on my scope, peering at it with my heart pounding as I tried to work out which way they were moving from the movement of the box on the stalk and the target hologram, and oh god the rush when you anticipated correctly and countered their move! Every other damn game I ended up just pulling round to where the arrow was. This instead created an instant sense of tension, and suddenly position is important, because you're vulnerable from behind... and it also taught me to read and use my scanners, which I suddenly realised was a whole area of skill I didn't have. I'm glad to hear they trialled the UI arrows, rejected it and went with the way it works now. I still don't know of any other space sim that does it. I noticed they did something even more drastic for CQC, where you lose targeting when they break line of sight, though you can regain it if you can get LoS back within a few seconds. I really loved that - made it even better (though of course it can't work in the main game, since turrets and huge slow ships are a thing). I know there must have been inevitable arguments about, "it's the future man it's so ridiculous that you don't even have a rear view camera or basic UI that would tell you where your target is"... I'm glad they stuck to their guns.

 

[ROSS-128]

The thing that confuses me is they could have kept it first-person-ish for pretty much no extra work. All they really had to do was stick the camera in the center of the ship. Would that really be so terrible?

 

[Kermit Laphroaig]

The thing that confuses me is they could have kept it first-person-ish for pretty much no extra work. All they really had to do was stick the camera in the center of the ship. Would that really be so terrible?

YES.

Please, stop doing this to yourself. Or at least stop doing it to others!

I hate to sound like a broken record, but just stop trying to ruin this game more than you already have.

Not just you, ROSS-128 but in general, I just can't take any more of people actively trying to make this cool space game more boring.

 

[Ian Skippy]

The thing that confuses me is they could have kept it first-person-ish for pretty much no extra work. All they really had to do was stick the camera in the center of the ship. Would that really be so terrible?

Yes, you'd lose almost 50% vision.

 

[bitstorm]

ED has at least some nanotechnology available. So covering the surface of your spaceship in a photosensitive layer wouldn't be too hard to do. It wouldn't be visible, but would have the effect of having a high definition 3D camera from any part of the surface of the ship. It would also be very difficult to completely destroy without destroying the ship first.

Yeah, if "immersion" is at risk, think of it as a software generated representation of the surrounding area mapped onto the CMDR via ED's version of VR aka telepresence.

Like I imagine you could do this right now if you pulled the right technology together.

Drive my car while wearing a Vive, that renders the world via cameras on the cars surface, but places me 6 feet behind and above my car. Piece of .... to build I bet if someone tech inclined put their mind to it.

 

[Whipley]

getting up to take a dump breaks my immersion. we should work on that, too

Diapers, my friend. Diapers.

 

[Aidan Brooder]

Clearly all the people moaning about: "Fighting against the pilot as a gunner" have never played Guns of Icarus Online...
There you actually have to communicate with your pilot, yes, so he gets into the best position. For you and two further crew mates. It's actually great fun.

I would have loved for multi-crew to be something like that. Anyway, it is what it is I guess. It's pretty disappointing for me - as is people teleporting into my ship.

 

[Jynessa Loraeyn]

Nice reasoning but when you actually listen to FD and Sandro constantly saying they can only do so much and they only have so much time you will realise that they looked at what they needed to do:

Make a better external camera system

Make a gunner turret view for Multicrew

Take external camera system, add an overlay, alter the angles and lock them.

Presto, gunner turret view.

It offers the viewing angles they needed to make it work and it allowed them to be efficient with development time.

Stop wondering what they could have done and look at the obvious reasons why it was done this way!

It's not a bad implementation at all, and it works!

There's so many posts saying "I wish they had done it that way", "I dont like it, it should have been like this"

All the additional stuff to the game has been done with time limits and limited number developers, why would this be any different?

Um, yes, I'm sure those were also considerations... but I'm not "wondering what they could have done", as you said, nor did I ever say it was a "bad implementation". I actually like the way they've implemented this. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

My point was that it seems as likely a gameplay decision (not just making the game easier and more 'arcadey') - I feel like this is actually a great way to implement the gunner role... it properly complements the captain and (with good communication) allows the gunner to cover for some weaknesses, while also still having weaknesses of their own.

 

[ROSS-128]

YES.

Please, stop doing this to yourself. Or at least stop doing it to others!

I hate to sound like a broken record, but just stop trying to ruin this game more than you already have.

Not just you, ROSS-128 but in general, I just can't take any more of people actively trying to make this cool space game more boring.

What's so terrible about it? It's still fully stabilized, it's still a 360 degree view, the only differences are the ship never blocks your view (because you're looking "out" from the hull) and the guns are much closer to the camera, so what you see is closer to what the guns see and it's easier to tell that you have a clear shot. Ship orientation can easily be indicated by a non-intrusive UI element.

Where's the downside?

 

[Demascus]

If it's destroying your immersion then don't use it.

 

[CylonSurfer]

You know you can still play first person mode all you want, right? This does not take away your first person gameplay. You can avoid third person the entire game and still play the way you want. Nothing has changed for you if you don't want it to. You bought a first person game and you still have it. You are being forced to do nothing. You are not a victim.

Of course it does. How does it not take away first person game play? Everything that uses a third person camera instead of a first person one takes away first person gameplay. If I want to use an SRV in any meaningful way (content I paid for, for a first person game) I am forced to use a third person camera or not use the SRV turret as to avoid using a third person one. A camera I cannot explain any reason for being in the game other than cheapness of development.

Many people will have purchased this game due to its focus on being a first person space game and not being a third person one.

 

[two quiet suns]

Sorry - I don't see your point. We both purchased a first person title, I did it because I don't want to play a third person game. I'm now getting cheap third person content in the game I purchased due to its 1st person gameplay focus. I'm not oppossed to you having an option to man a turret via a third person camera, but I am annoyed and feeling slightly cheated to be forced (if I want to use that feature - which I did, very much so) to use a camera mode I purposely purchased this game to avoid. I did a lot of research pre-purchase, read the roadmap, read articles and interviews with the developers, there was much emphasis on the game being "First Person" - this is a massive deviation from that.

So no, we do not agree.

This is completely insane. I can't even begin to understand your point as you don't HAVE to use the turrets?!?!? Nobody is forcing your hand! How can you feel cheated??? This makes no sense what so ever. What have you been cheated out of?

 

[bitstorm]

The thing that confuses me is they could have kept it first-person-ish for pretty much no extra work. All they really had to do was stick the camera in the center of the ship. Would that really be so terrible?

But it's a wholey more intuitive interface and is surely how it would be done in the future.

You're literally external to the ship with a vantage point of your choosing.