Gunner = Arcade Action Cam for the 12 yr olds?

God forbid they put down the immersion baton in favor for some fun eh? You're asking them to put a lot more work into something that's just meant to get people to actually play the game together. If you really look at how it's designed for a second, it's pretty obvious that's the primary goal initially. I'm going to just go ahead and dig up the good ol platitude, "It's just a foundation that can be built upon later, much like a house."

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It's more akin to JK Rowling changing the rules of magic halfway through the Harry Potter series.

It's magic and it's her narrative. It's a video game based on science fiction and it's their narrative. There are no rules for imagination and art, they are abstract and highly subjective.
 
In regards to a 3rd person PILOT mode: I don't see why competition being "consensual" matters? If I want to win, I have to "consent" to playing the game in a way that kills my sense of being of there. That's not really consent though is it? Isn't that more of a form of coercion?

Yes if Frontier had gone with a Rogue System style cockpit form the beginning with a 360 view and a full DCS style sim, I would be extremely happy. But they based the reality of the past 2 years on WW2 sims, so that is the fabric of "reality" they've created. It has nothing to do with realism though. It's more akin to JK Rowling changing the rules of magic halfway through the Harry Potter series.

you don't have to compete if you want to play the game though; you can always run with your own group or play solo. in order to compete, you have to choose to encounter others you don't know, so if it's coercion it's coercion in the same way you're "coerced" to choose a fit and ship that competes well. you can roleplay being a viper pilot that smuggles jovian whatevers but if you then complain that other haulers are moving those goods faster in their asps it won't win you many supporters.

you might not like that Frontier can change the rules, but it's not like you can do anything about it if they choose to. you can get mad I guess, but then what?
 
God forbid they put down the immersion baton in favor for some fun eh? You're asking them to put a lot more work into something that's just meant to get people to actually play the game together. If you really look at how it's designed for a second, it's pretty obvious that's the primary goal initially. I'm going to just go ahead and dig up the good ol platitude, "It's just a foundation that can be built upon later, much like a house."

God forbid that the first person game people purchased would continue to provide that functionality for new features.
 
Deal with it. Elite has always been about immersion and it doesn't become less valid because a bunch of lightweights are running around the playground shouting "immershunn" and giggling.

what is your opinion of sothis/robigo/whatever the cool kids are doing now
 
For those sayin there is no slippery slope...

1 Frontier said wont be a 3rd person cam
2 Frontier add debug cam
3 full 3rd person view and 3rd person gunnery gameplay

The slope has been going for the last 2 years, if it continues the only next and final step is 3rd person piloting

Now personally I like the 3rd person cam, but to say there is no slippery slope in evidence you have to be blind

Frontier said they wouldn't do a thing.

Then they did a thing that was kiiiinda similar if you squint but not really.

Then they did a thing that was a bit similar but again not really.

They have not done the thing they said they would not do and to my knowledge still say they will not do.
 
Anyone who flies from their cockpit will be gimping themselves. So anything where CMDRs are competing against each other will benefit from being in 3rd person mode. And anyone who flies the "old fashioned way" will be gimping themselves out of nostalgia or a desire for immersion.

Thus everyone should remained gimped in favor of immersion so that the immersed do not have to fear being gimped because they want to remain immersed.
 
There are no rules for imagination and art, they are abstract and highly subjective.

Tell that to my FDL with the hard coded 20 LY jump range. I wish jump range was "abstract and highly subjective." If could travel to Sgr A in 3rd person, and just click my ruby slippers and say "yada yada" instead of jumping 600 times ad nauseum for 10 hours, I might be inclined to agree with you.

The point is, in any sci fiction there is an agreed upon set of rules. In this game, one of them is that you see everything from your pilots perspective, which for the past 2 years means from some kind of cockpit. The ultimate freedom from which was supposed to be space legs, not virtual cameras. That's what I was expecting anyway. Maybe that's not what space legs will be though if we are all holograms seeing though virtual vantage points?

Maybe we are just going to be ships and holograms with no actual substance? We'll have to wait and see where Frontier is taking this. Do they want us to keep using cockpits? Or create static 3rd person combat cam views just in front of the ship, so we don't have to worry about cockpits blocking the view at all anymore?
 
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That is actually a very valid complaint. I'll grant you that. The reality of the game is built around WW2 Era Dogfights in Space for sure. So any deviation from that somehow feel less real than a logical approximation of reality.

For instance, why have externally mounted glass cockpits if the view was just going to be a virtual external cam view? Why not go for a more "Rogue System" type approach?

That's kind of the thing-- Elite Dangerous, and most other loosely-Star-Wars-esque dogfighting space games, are based less in realism and immersion and more a combination of gameplay balance and rule of cool. That's why the ships are all designed for appearances over what would be "appropriate" functionality, down to having a glass cockpit on the front of the ship instead of a "pilot nest" buried under layers of armor, and delicate components connected to the ship by thin spans of metal that are useless outside of "they look like those sweet- wings airplanes have". That's why a docking computer takes one ton of internal cargo space. That's why you can stick hundreds of samples of iron, ceramic, and radioactive material in your flight suit pockets while also being "telepresenced" into an SRV, which can be destroyed but you'll still have the samples, but you can't buy another flash drive to store a couple extra wake solutions on, and also why you can dump enough of that stuff into a hole in your ship in the middle of combat to reload thousands of rounds of ammo and missiles. That's why you can carry hundreds of passengers but you can only have two or three NPC crew members, but also for some reason you're the only one with a witch-drive-enabled escape pod that can carry you across the galaxy instantly even if it takes you weeks to get there in any other ship. It's why you can be in the middle of a dogfight and all of a sudden the other ship stops taking damage and then disappears like it never existed in the first place. It's why you can set up someone to courier your Corvette from Colonia to the bubble and back again in a business week, even if it's only got an E-ranked FSD and no fuel scoop.

Any part of Elite Dangerous that you examine too hard will break your immersion. This isn't necessarily directed at you per se, but a more general 2.3 and future update note is that as time goes on, as more mechanics are added, there's always going to be something that "panders to casuals" because Elite Dangerous is a game. Not a job, not a lifestyle, not an alternate reality, a game that people play for fun. And I hope up and down that they keep treating it like that instead of making gameplay decisions based entirely on "realism and immersion", and doubly so when you can opt into as much "realism and immersion" as you can handle without affecting other people. When you play Skyrim you have the option of not using fast travel, when you play Pokemon you have the option of releasing any Pokemon that faints, when you play Minecraft you can build your massive castle out of hand-hewn rock instead of spawning it out of thin air, and when you play 2.3 you will have the option to not play in 3rd person camera mode. One person choosing a more difficult/lengthy/involved gameplay experience does not and should not mean everyone else has to adhere to that playstyle. You have the option to say "I don't want to do the thing" and then proceed to not do the thing, and if the existence of unrealistic, un-immersive gameplay mechanics makes you feel like you have to use them, the problem does not lie with every game developer of every game that incorporates them.

Now, if they implement a HUD in 3PV in a later patch? Maybe it'll be actually unbalanced and they'll incorporate an "in-cockpit holo-view" of your ship and the ships around you instead of a little circle with dots and lines. Maybe 3PV won't be as much of a boon as you think because the external view is going to mean your ship blocks things that you'd see from the cockpit and make it significantly more difficult to target other people. Maybe they'll never slap a HUD on 3PV and this entire discussion is making slippery slope arguments that won't go anywhere. But regardless of the direction they go, the upshot is the game will still be exactly as immersive and quote-unquote realistic as you want it to be. Solo mode won't be going anywhere, private groups won't be going anywhere. You could spend years of your life playing only with people who play by whatever "challenge mode rules" you want to lay down and believe me, you'll probably have a hell of a lot more fun playing with people who choose those restrictions instead of playing with people who are grudgingly forced to have those restrictions applied to them. But jumping on the forums and trying to force gameplay restrictions on the entire playerbase for the sake of "realism" will either leave you resentful that they weren't implemented, or leave everyone else resentful that they were, and either way less players means less money means less developers, and Elite Dangerous dies before it gets to the game we all want it to be someday.
 
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For my personal immersion I imagine this:

*All New*
Sperry-Emerson Visual Fidelity 4D fire control system

Link your turrets in to a single state-of-the-art 360 internal ball turret

System is built around 16 to 32 automatically extending/retracting towed array optic nanofibre camera mounts. Each fibre mount holds 5 000 meters of Bugblatter Optic SpyderWyre, operating limits 5 to 200 m. If one fibre is damaged or cut, the system automatically extends a new one. 16 to 32 external cameras provide information to Sperry-Emerson ViFi 4D ball turret giving the gunner a full spherical external view of your vessel. The ball turret itself is located in a size 2 internal slot.

Get yours now, 25% discount in Traal syatem.

:p
 
Tell that to my FDL with the hard coded 20 LY jump range. I wish jump range was "abstract and highly subjective." If could travel to Sgr A in 3rd person, and just click my ruby slippers and say "yada yada" instead of jumping 600 times ad nauseum for 10 hours, I might be inclined to agree with you.

and if they feel like it they can give the ship a 200 ly range, there's not really anything you can do about it.

beyond getting mad and leaving, what exactly are you going to do if Frontier doesn't listen to you? how would it have any appreciable effect on the company?
 
Frontier said they wouldn't do a thing.

Then they did a thing that was kiiiinda similar if you squint but not really.

Then they did a thing that was a bit similar but again not really.

They have not done the thing they said they would not do and to my knowledge still say they will not do.

Ummm no. They said there wont be a 3rd person cam

Then the went back on that and added a limited 3rd person cam

Then the went further and added a full 3rd person cam

AND full 3rd person gameplay for the gunner

This shows they ARE going back on what they previously said so them saying no 3rd person pilot option doesnt mean they wont add it, and the past evidence suggests it IS a real possibility

As I said I like the 3rd person cam, but the slope they are on is very evident
 
Well people wanted reasons to play open, this is how you get reasons to play open. PVP battles will be on another level with this.



And if you play in a Wing, Combat Zones are now going to be much easier and much more lucrative than for the lone player.
 
and if they feel like it they can give the ship a 200 ly range, there's not really anything you can do about it.

Why would I want "do something" about that? Besides jump up and down and throw an FDL party?

Silly bear.
 
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The point is, in any sci fiction there is an agreed upon set of rules. In this game, one of them is that you see everything from your pilots perspective, which for the past 2 years means from some kind of cockpit. The ultimate freedom from which was supposed to be space legs, not virtual cameras. That's what I was expecting anyway. Maybe that's not what space legs will be though if we are all holograms seeing though virtual vantage points?

Pretty sure the pilot still sees everything from the pilots perspective, the gunner gets the 3rd person view so they can actually target with the turrets. Would it have been easier on you if the view was restricted to small fields of view on individual turret cams? Really, I don't see the difference if it would since they could mumbo jumbo up some story about how the ships computer can summarize and combine the views of all the turrets fancy 360 cameras into one easy to analyze view.

What we're really talking about here is a feature made fun and easy to use. I'm not quite sure why everything needs lore and rules to explain every bit of minutiae. Sometimes it's just about game play, it's really not all that hard to grasp.
 
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Words and actions.

There is a lot of fun policing going on 'round these parts with anything that doesn't fit some self transcribed version of the Elite lore. God forbid.

With respect, you're just name-calling. Its perfectly reasonable to be concerned that what could have been a serious extension to ship capabilities has kind of taken the CQC route with dip in, dip out "fun".
 
That's kind of the thing-- Elite Dangerous, and most other loosely-Star-Wars-esque dogfighting space games, are based less in realism and immersion and more a combination of gameplay balance and rule of cool. That's why the ships are all designed for appearances over what would be "appropriate" functionality, down to having a glass cockpit on the front of the ship instead of a "pilot nest" buried under layers of armor, and delicate components connected to the ship by thin spans of metal that are useless outside of "they look like those sweet- wings airplanes have". That's why a docking computer takes one ton of internal cargo space. That's why you can stick hundreds of samples of iron, ceramic, and radioactive material in your flight suit pockets while also being "telepresenced" into an SRV, which can be destroyed but you'll still have the samples, but you can't buy another flash drive to store a couple extra wake solutions on, and also why you can dump enough of that stuff into a hole in your ship in the middle of combat to reload thousands of rounds of ammo and missiles. That's why you can carry hundreds of passengers but you can only have two or three NPC crew members, but also for some reason you're the only one with a witch-drive-enabled escape pod that can carry you across the galaxy instantly even if it takes you weeks to get there in any other ship. It's why you can be in the middle of a dogfight and all of a sudden the other ship stops taking damage and then disappears like it never existed in the first place. It's why you can set up someone to courier your Corvette from Colonia to the bubble and back again in a business week, even if it's only got an E-ranked FSD and no fuel scoop.

Any part of Elite Dangerous that you examine too hard will break your immersion. This isn't necessarily directed at you per se, but a more general 2.3 and future update note is that as time goes on, as more mechanics are added, there's always going to be something that "panders to casuals" because Elite Dangerous is a game. Not a job, not a lifestyle, not an alternate reality, a game that people play for fun. And I hope up and down that they keep treating it like that instead of making gameplay decisions based entirely on "realism and immersion", and doubly so when you can opt into as much "realism and immersion" as you can handle without affecting other people. When you play Skyrim you have the option of not using fast travel, when you play Pokemon you have the option of releasing any Pokemon that faints, when you play Minecraft you can build your massive castle out of hand-hewn rock instead of spawning it out of thin air, and when you play 2.3 you will have the option to not play in 3rd person camera mode. One person choosing a more difficult/lengthy/involved gameplay experience does not and should not mean everyone else has to adhere to that playstyle. You have the option to say "I don't want to do the thing" and then proceed to not do the thing, and if the existence of unrealistic, un-immersive gameplay mechanics makes you feel like you have to use them, the problem does not lie with every game developer of every game that incorporates them.

Now, if they implement a HUD in 3PV in a later patch? Maybe it'll be actually unbalanced and they'll incorporate an "in-cockpit holo-view" of your ship and the ships around you instead of a little circle with dots and lines. Maybe 3PV won't be as much of a boon as you think because the external view is going to mean your ship blocks things that you'd see from the cockpit and make it significantly more difficult to target other people. Maybe they'll never slap a HUD on 3PV and this entire discussion is making slippery slope arguments that won't go anywhere. But regardless of the direction they go, the upshot is the game will still be exactly as immersive and quote-unquote realistic as you want it to be. Solo mode won't be going anywhere, private groups won't be going anywhere. You could spend years of your life playing only with people who play by whatever "challenge mode rules" you want to lay down and believe me, you'll probably have a hell of a lot more fun playing with people who choose those restrictions instead of playing with people who are grudgingly forced to have those restrictions applied to them. But jumping on the forums and trying to force gameplay restrictions on the entire playerbase for the sake of "realism" will either leave you resentful that they weren't implemented, or leave everyone else resentful that they were, and either way less players means less money means less developers, and Elite Dangerous dies before it gets to the game we all want it to be someday.

Rep'd. Well argued.
 
That's kind of the thing-- Elite Dangerous, and most other loosely-Star-Wars-esque dogfighting space games, are based less in realism and immersion and more a combination of gameplay balance and rule of cool. That's why the ships are all designed for appearances over what would be "appropriate" functionality, down to having a glass cockpit on the front of the ship instead of a "pilot nest" buried under layers of armor, and delicate components connected to the ship by thin spans of metal that are useless outside of "they look like those sweet- wings airplanes have". That's why a docking computer takes one ton of internal cargo space. That's why you can stick hundreds of samples of iron, ceramic, and radioactive material in your flight suit pockets while also being "telepresenced" into an SRV, which can be destroyed but you'll still have the samples, but you can't buy another flash drive to store a couple extra wake solutions on, and also why you can dump enough of that stuff into a hole in your ship in the middle of combat to reload thousands of rounds of ammo and missiles. That's why you can carry hundreds of passengers but you can only have two or three NPC crew members, but also for some reason you're the only one with a witch-drive-enabled escape pod that can carry you across the galaxy instantly even if it takes you weeks to get there in any other ship. It's why you can be in the middle of a dogfight and all of a sudden the other ship stops taking damage and then disappears like it never existed in the first place. It's why you can set up someone to courier your Corvette from Colonia to the bubble and back again in a business week, even if it's only got an E-ranked FSD and no fuel scoop.

Any part of Elite Dangerous that you examine too hard will break your immersion. This isn't necessarily directed at you per se, but a more general 2.3 and future update note is that as time goes on, as more mechanics are added, there's always going to be something that "panders to casuals" because Elite Dangerous is a game. Not a job, not a lifestyle, not an alternate reality, a game that people play for fun. And I hope up and down that they keep treating it like that instead of making gameplay decisions based entirely on "realism and immersion", and doubly so when you can opt into as much "realism and immersion" as you can handle without affecting other people. When you play Skyrim you have the option of not using fast travel, when you play Pokemon you have the option of releasing any Pokemon that faints, when you play Minecraft you can build your massive castle out of hand-hewn rock instead of spawning it out of thin air, and when you play 2.3 you will have the option to not play in 3rd person camera mode. One person choosing a more difficult/lengthy/involved gameplay experience does not and should not mean everyone else has to adhere to that playstyle. You have the option to say "I don't want to do the thing" and then proceed to not do the thing, and if the existence of unrealistic, un-immersive gameplay mechanics makes you feel like you have to use them, the problem does not lie with every game developer of every game that incorporates them.

Now, if they implement a HUD in 3PV in a later patch? Maybe it'll be actually unbalanced and they'll incorporate an "in-cockpit holo-view" of your ship and the ships around you instead of a little circle with dots and lines. Maybe 3PV won't be as much of a boon as you think because the external view is going to mean your ship blocks things that you'd see from the cockpit and make it significantly more difficult to target other people. Maybe they'll never slap a HUD on 3PV and this entire discussion is making slippery slope arguments that won't go anywhere. But regardless of the direction they go, the upshot is the game will still be exactly as immersive and quote-unquote realistic as you want it to be. Solo mode won't be going anywhere, private groups won't be going anywhere. You could spend years of your life playing only with people who play by whatever "challenge mode rules" you want to lay down and believe me, you'll probably have a hell of a lot more fun playing with people who choose those restrictions instead of playing with people who are grudgingly forced to have those restrictions applied to them. But jumping on the forums and trying to force gameplay restrictions on the entire playerbase for the sake of "realism" will either leave you resentful that they weren't implemented, or leave everyone else resentful that they were, and either way less players means less money means less developers, and Elite Dangerous dies before it gets to the game we all want it to be someday.

I agree with pretty much everything you've said here. And I have to say my primary objection to 3PV piloting is that I really enjoy the cockpit view, and that was the whole reason I started playing Elite at all. If flying in the cockpit becomes a gimped way of playing the game, then that won't just break my immersion, it will destroy my favorite thing about the game: feeling like a pilot and not a VR tech demo of a VR tech demo.
 
I will just add this - after seeing how FD has implemented all this, I am not worried about immersion being trampled on. My major worry was if new camera system might force people to play third person all the time. After I have seen it - no, it won't. As for turret cam it makes incredibly lot of sense, and it felt very futuristic, free and yet restricted (you can't move much besides changing direction in 360).

I think what I seen implies FD wants to find way it works yet keeps immersion big integral part of the game. If you feel otherwise I won't convince you but I think your worries are a bit unjustified.
 
With respect, you're just name-calling. Its perfectly reasonable to be concerned that what could have been a serious extension to ship capabilities has kind of taken the CQC route with dip in, dip out "fun".

The developer is going to do things at times you do not like. This does not automatically make it wrong. There is a huge amount of hill-taking going on and people are happy to die for some fairly extreme viewpoints.

Most of it on supposition extrapolated from two ~1hr livestreams that will only show a fraction of what is actually going on with 2.3. The problem with knee-jerk reactions, is that they rely on supposition and not fact.

Much of which will become abundantly clear during beta. And again when it goes live. There is a lot of reactionary sky is falling claims. That isn't to say no concern should exist, because that's healthy.

But a huge amount of argument is suppostioning that 2+2 = 18.7 and then running with it. I'm happy to see how the theoretical is made actual. Then drawing logical conclusions from it.
 
Pretty sure the pilot still sees everything from the pilots perspective, the gunner gets the 3rd person view so they can actually target with the turrets. Would it have been easier on you if the view was restricted to small fields of view on individual turret cams? Really, I don't see the difference if it would since they could mumbo jumbo up some story about how the ships computer can summarize and combine the views of all the turrets fancy 360 cameras into one easy to analyze view.

What we're really talking about here is a feature made fun and easy to use. I'm not quite sure why everything needs lore and rules to explain every bit of minutiae. Sometimes it's just about game play, it's really not all that hard to grasp.

I think there is a understandable misunderstanding since you're late to the thread. 98% of my posts here are regarding the threat of 3PV for pilots. I have no legal objection to the 3PV cams for gunners or cinematography, these are both necessary evils and much needed upgrades respectively.
 
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