Gunner = Arcade Action Cam for the 12 yr olds?

[ArchEmperor]

I agree with pretty much everything you've said here. And I have to say my primary objection to 3PV piloting is that I really enjoy the cockpit view, and that was the whole reason I started playing Elite at all. If flying in the cockpit becomes a gimped way of playing the game, then that won't just break my immersion, it will destroy my favorite thing about the game: feeling like a pilot and not a VR tech demo of a VR tech demo.

Add a huge bobbing gyroscopic version of your ship to the dashboard that turns and twists as you turn and twist and it will be the same as playing in camera mode.

Besides:
There is no reason why a real fighter pilot would NOT use an external camera view in the future. Technology for keeping a camera outside your ships hull to get a wider 360 overview is most certainly available. And that while targeting and firing. .. or doing anything that require 100% orientation and hull awareness.

 

[Dbrn47]

I think there is a understandable misunderstanding since you're late to the thread. 98% of my posts here are regarding the threat of 3PV for pilots. I have no legal objection to the 3PV cams for gunners or cinematography, these are both necessary evils and much needed upgrades respectively.

Right, carry on then. I'm not into speculation, but I do understand slippery slopes. [big grin]

 

[Ziljan]

Add a huge bobbing gyroscopic version of your ship to the dashboard that turns and twists as you turn and twist and it will be the same as playing in camera mode.

Besides:
There is no reason why a real fighter pilot would NOT use an external camera view in the future. Technology for keeping a camera outside your ships hull to get a wider 360 overview is most certainly available. And that while targeting and firing.

You're late to the thread sir. Discussed ad nauseum. There are reasons given why this is bad 1 and 2 pages back. Not going to type it all out again.

 

[kofeyh]

I agree with pretty much everything you've said here. And I have to say my primary objection to 3PV piloting is that I really enjoy the cockpit view, and that was the whole reason I started playing Elite at all. If flying in the cockpit becomes a gimped way of playing the game, then that won't just break my immersion, it will destroy my favorite thing about the game: feeling like a pilot and not a VR tech demo of a VR tech demo.

With the deepest of respect, based on what I have seen so far? Frontier see that vision too. They are trying to walk the line between engaging mechanics, that actually function on some level, whilst maintaining the immediacy of first person view.

It's very clear to me that first-person is how the game was built to work and that third-person is to provide options and to extend engagement; not to replace it.

 

[Cobra1984]

With respect, you're just name-calling. Its perfectly reasonable to be concerned that what could have been a serious extension to ship capabilities has kind of taken the CQC route with dip in, dip out "fun".

Didn't you just call people "a bunch of lightweights running around the playground"?

The "fun" in quotes is a nice touch.

There is a shocking disrespect coming from folks who don't like or want multicrew, wrapped in a pretense of caring about preserving immersion.

 

[Cmdr Eagleboy]

With the deepest of respect, based on what I have seen so far? Frontier see that vision too. They are trying to walk the line between engaging mechanics, that actually function on some level, whilst maintaining the immediacy of first person view.

It's very clear to me that first-person is how the game was built to work and that third-person is to provide options and to extend engagement; not to replace it.

Thus common sense has been spoken, +1.

 

[AceFlares]

I don't know if the devs are just limited by the game engine, but I would have prefered if they had gone with a heads down display remote control weapon system, maybe using automatic turret hand off as the turrets would be networked. Something like the CROWS or ROGUE systems. I appreciate Elite isn't a simulator, but the 3rd person turret system show cased in the live stream was a touch too arcadey. Just my opinion. I'm not denegrating anyone for liking the 3rd person view.

 

[Bobbydylan]

Didn't you just call people "a bunch of lightweights running around the playground"?

The "fun" in quotes is a nice touch.

There is a shocking disrespect coming from folks who don't like or want multicrew, wrapped in a pretense of caring about preserving immersion.

Quite a lot of those people are frustrated at how shallow the Multi-crew is given what was spoken abot at EGX in 2015. They're also tired of constantly being derided.

 

[Ziljan]

With the deepest of respect, based on what I have seen so far? Frontier see that vision too. They are trying to walk the line between engaging mechanics, that actually function on some level, whilst maintaining the immediacy of first person view.

It's very clear to me that first-person is how the game was built to work and that third-person is to provide options and to extend engagement; not to replace it.

Again. I HOPE you are right. And I agree, Frontier is obviously trying to walk a tightrope here. They can and have been swung however, and I see this as a debate that will be ongoing especially once 2.3 hits BETA and then it will likely explode once 2.3 goes live.

I hope to Thor I am wrong about this. Nothing would make me happier.

 

[kofeyh]

Add a huge bobbing gyroscopic version of your ship to the dashboard that turns and twists as you turn and twist and it will be the same as playing in camera mode.

Besides:
There is no reason why a real fighter pilot would NOT use an external camera view in the future. Technology for keeping a camera outside your ships hull to get a wider 360 overview is most certainly available. And that while targeting and firing. .. or doing anything that require 100% orientation and hull awareness.

They are building a game with a broad way to interact with our environment. 2.3 arguably adds so much more imediacy due to having our commanders be more than just non-descript meat puppets in a can.

We are being connected to our evironment in much deeper ways that previously. Isn't that actually the point, to be more engaged in what is going on?

Because if I am more engaged with what is happening, then frontier has done well because the more I am buried in the experience, the broader the ways I can gain information and be a part of the action?

Well. There's a term for it. Ironically.

edit: adjusted post based on re-reading.

 

[HappySlayerUK]

There can be done alot together with multicrew. You could have one turret be a healing beam and one gunner in charge of it keeping friendlys around shielded up. The implication for a dedicated gunner that can concentrate on his surroundings/scan/defend and dish out damage is rather huge.

So basically you play as a Disco Priest from WoW?

 

[ArchEmperor]

You're late to the thread sir. Discussed ad nauseum. There are reasons given why this is bad 1 and 2 pages back. Not going to type it all out again.

I know, but I came to this conclusion and it is now considered the most realistic approach. I can not change that fact even if you already discussed it in your own way ad nauseum. However, I do see your point, but reject it.

Removing all the blockage in the view is as simple as leaning forward, which I would have done in combat anyway with that kind of bad viewport.

I would rather play in camera mode so that my entire ship is hidden behind me, obscuring nothing. It is the correct and realistic approach, also gives better immershun. No longer any Anaconda nose or FDL cockpit bar in my way.

I would consider this "combat glasses on" mode. For trading or instrumental flight, I would rather have the internal cockpit view, for obvious reasons.

Not saying external cameras can not malfunction by combat mechanics such as emp or damage, forcing us to lean forward again.

 

[Dbrn47]

It's very clear to me that first-person is how the game was built to work and that third-person is to provide options and to extend engagement; not to replace it.

That's how I digested it. Maybe I assume too much, but I'd like to think they know what sort of outcry it would cause if they opened that door, they probably aren't interested in even entering the hallway that leads to that door.

 

[Tataboj]

Why couldn't all the sensors (or cameras, I don't know), make for realistic 3D representation of the environment around you, especially if it's a year 3303?

With that said, some clarification from the devs would be nice to know how exactly it works.

 

[Dbrn47]

Why couldn't all the sensors (or cameras, I don't know), make for realistic 3D representation of the environment around you, especially if it's a year 3303?

With that said, some clarification from the devs Wild be nice to know how exactly it works.

I believe they did say they aren't interested in giving much explanation to the finer details of multi-crew, it's meant to be pure game play.

 

[Angry Fish Smell]

I agree with pretty much everything you've said here. And I have to say my primary objection to 3PV piloting is that I really enjoy the cockpit view, and that was the whole reason I started playing Elite at all. If flying in the cockpit becomes a gimped way of playing the game, then that won't just break my immersion, it will destroy my favorite thing about the game: feeling like a pilot and not a VR tech demo of a VR tech demo.

Nothing I've seen has implied this is the route they want to go, but that's kind of my point-- even in the absolute worst case, 3rd person view is the only feasible way to PvP, the Open Meta is "fully engineered corvette with this specific outfitting that takes months to grind, anyone without this ship/setup combo instantly dies", a rank 8 engineering upgrade allows you to jump 1000ly at a time, you can taxi to Beagle Point with your ship for free and you can buy in-game credits from FDev for money with microtransactions, there is still the option to play the way you want to play in non-Open game modes. I wouldn't be happy if this is what happened, but the game that I paid for, that I'm playing now, would still be available to play short of them removing Solo/Private entirely. This game has always been, on some level, about making your own fun and doing the portions of it that you actually enjoy playing; FDev adding content that people may or may not choose to participate in doesn't change that fact.

 

[Ziljan]

That's how I digested it. Maybe I assume too much, but I'd like to think they know what sort of outcry it would cause if they opened that door, they probably aren't interested in even entering the hallway that leads to that door.

I don't take anything for granted anymore. Especially around the big patches where there are big forks in the roadmap.

 

[Cobra1984]

Quite a lot of those people are frustrated at how shallow the Multi-crew is given what was spoken abot at EGX in 2015. They're also tired of constantly being derided.

Not one single person has mentioned EGX in any of these threads regarding multiplayer features.

There seems to be an outright disrespect toward anyone calling out these tenuous, bizarre arguments around immersion and accessible gameplay.

 

[Ziljan]

Nothing I've seen has implied this is the route they want to go, but that's kind of my point-- even in the absolute worst case, 3rd person view is the only feasible way to PvP, the Open Meta is "fully engineered corvette with this specific outfitting that takes months to grind, anyone without this ship/setup combo instantly dies", a rank 8 engineering upgrade allows you to jump 1000ly at a time, you can taxi to Beagle Point with your ship for free and you can buy in-game credits from FDev for money with microtransactions, there is still the option to play the way you want to play in non-Open game modes. I wouldn't be happy if this is what happened, but the game that I paid for, that I'm playing now, would still be available to play short of them removing Solo/Private entirely. This game has always been, on some level, about making your own fun and doing the portions of it that you actually enjoy playing; FDev adding content that people may or may not choose to participate in doesn't change that fact.

The worst case is that I lose interest in the game. Everything I do in the game is competitive, and I only play in Open, so optimal play does impact me quite a bit. If 3PV became a standard for optimal play that would be an unrecoverable gamebreaker for me.

 

[lysan]

That is actually a very valid complaint. I'll grant you that. The reality of the game is built around WW2 Era Dogfights in Space for sure. So any deviation from that somehow feel less real than a logical approximation of reality.

For instance, why have externally mounted glass cockpits if the view was just going to be a virtual external cam view? Why not go for a more "Rogue System" type approach?

There are many issues in ED that relate to game design and inconsistency. It's like they don't check the lore of the game before designing it.
That is ok, because it's a game and not a history book. However it always end up like a big goo of problems because the lore is a red thread through the game that should keep the small detail on track.

The CMDR Creator is a outstanding piece of work, it truly is, the new CAM system looks really nice. The multi crew mechanics are not so great in my opinion due to several reasons.

- Drop-in drop-out (that is ok, it's a game and we don't have time to wait for people to get on board from far away, no need to explain that)
- More than one fighter (that is ok too, it was always suppose to be this way)
- Multi crew combat system (well here the chain pops off in my view, this could have been done a lot better, too simple and "arcady" in my opinion)

So why did they go for this solution? well most likely because non of FDEV play any simulations, they are simply into another type of games and therefor look towards these games for inspiration.
Time to develop could also be an issue, they simply didn't have time enough to make another mechanic for the multi crew mechanics.

My feeling is that they look towards games like Dreadnought or fractured Space.

[video=youtube;Hov7k45dh-M]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hov7k45dh-M[/video]

For games like these this mechanics works fine, they are not even close to a SIM, however ED do have simmy parts, and therefor it jumps into the eye when a mechanics like that are introduced.
I had hoped for a more difficult approached like in DCS or IL-2 multi crew.

https://youtu.be/MjAkyW84ayM?t=5m40s

Well, lets see how it turns out, I still hope for a full NPC crew down the line.