Gunner = Arcade Action Cam for the 12 yr olds?

[Mystixx Foxx]

It will work just fine, there are many examples of it working, just back off a bit in the this thread and read.

You want efficient DPS. A crewmember hopping from turret to turret cant deliver that

 

[lysan]

All of which laugh down at Elite in terms of realism. Yes, even Battlefield. All of which model to various degrees of simulation or arcadyness actually existing crafts without a central gunner control? Or is there a fantasy spaceship game hidden in the "many more"? If it's Star Citizen, then that's rather hard to compare, as they essentially go for WW2 grade turret control by the looks of it. One person per turret, only direct turret control. If they can eventually get enough people in an instance to man their spaceships, that is.

This is not about realism, ED took another path, and I'm not sure they even know what path it is

It's about keeping a red line in the game, the outside view make the game FOR SOME PEOPLE look like a different game. It just feel wrong and therefor people, including this player, are concerned with the direction of the game.

I don't see the fun part in this mechanic, however if only 50% of the player base like it, and the other half don't it's still a success. Because we can't have it all.

It doesn't appeal to me, I will probably not use it and there will be people who feel just like me. It just give me more time to do things I really like in ED or other games.
In the end we can only watch the development, support with money if we like it or just move on to something else.

ED is a big game and I'm sure there will always be things we can do and enjoy.

Looking forward to mining and exploration get a buff in the future.

 

[CorvenDallas]

Yes, that was pretty awfully arcadey.

Why Fdev you didnt make it like SRV turret...?

Im not agains the cam as is right now, but I think this one got the point, maybe an option to select the type of camera view?

And why is not used this "3rd person view" technology to provide us lonley pilots with a rear camera, maybe a camera to look at planets when flying over and things like that? Just for observation

 

[lysan]

You want efficient DPS. A crewmember hopping from turret to turret cant deliver that

Depends how you do it, of course you can make it work.

 

[CylonSurfer]

If you listened to FDev's design intent for multi-crew, it is about players coming together and having FUN.

Then where is the content to make this fun? They didn't make any did they, or even try to make MC missions or work existing missions into MC. Essentially all you can do is go to RES and Combat Zones with it (are they not place holders?). Activities you would likely fair better at with 2 or 3 seperate ships in a Wing anyhows.

So now players can come together quickly (sounds wrong but sums up MC quite well..) to do - well not much at all. YAY!!! Oh and they'll write off any game integrity in the process of giving you next to nothing. Fantastic.

 

[BurnyBurns]

Whatever augmented reality systems exist or may come to exist it doesn't matter. Using a 3rd person view to control turrets just isn't in keeping with the marketing of the game, those it was marketed to or the spirit of the game.

Please quote the marketing that says "we will never, ever add external camera" or "that's not in the spirit of Elite's universe".

here's a hint: It doesn't exist. That's you projecting what you think the game should be into it. The devs show something else. But now it's no longer the devs forming the game, but you determining that the devs have strayed from the path?

Stop whining for features to be removed you personally dislike. You are not everybody. We'll (3-4 firends I brought into the game) be using the multicrew for PvE a whole lot and have payed the same amount for the game. Why shouldn't we have sensible turret control?

 

[lysan]

What else can a gunner role essentially be other than simply point an aiming reticule in a particular direction and pressing fire?!?! [weird]

The gunner's only interaction with the game in his multi-crew role is to shoot. He has no control over the ship and so creating needless restrictions on his perspective and vision by have FP turret cameras that he has to swap through, sounds like a ridiculous, clunky and unwieldy solution.

If you listened to FDev's design intent for multi-crew, it is about players coming together and having FUN. The gunner role is already limited enough, without the frankly quite silly and unworkable solutions you suggest. Rendering the gunner role with a camera perspective that would means he's able to see even less of the action than the helmsman is a terrible terrible idea.

Please, no offense, but don't ever get into game's design.

No offence, but what other games do you play, where you have a multi crew option? just so we have some background reference?

 

[Angus]

Actually, he's not wrong. He is literally outside the ship. He's on his ship, telepresanced into the ship, with a view of the outside of the ship that he's not actually on.

I prefer "virtually".

 

[Prince Thrakkath]

I think OP is bang on and a wireframe representation of your ship would be preferable to showing the actual ship in turret mode. Its really arcadey looking and IMO detracts from the game, 3PV in itself is enough of a compromise for many simmers, but at least make it so its remotely believable and more in line with the rest of the game which is 100% 1PV.

 

[CMDR Ofan]

Depends how you do it, of course you can make it work.

Not when you compare it to the performance of the ship computer handling turrets.

It's one thing to accept a player can jump from turret to turret it's another to expect it to provide any boost over solo play control other than chaff immunity.

Latency, time needed to re-orient, reaction speed and limited FOV would cripple a human's ability to lay on DPS

 

[CmdrChorusLindarr]

Then where is the content to make this fun? They didn't make any did they, or even try to make MC missions or work existing missions into MC. Essentially all you can do is go to RES and Combat Zones with it. Activities you would likely fair better at with 2 or 3 seperate ships in a Wing anyhows.

So now players can come together quickly (sounds wrong but some up MC quite well..) to do - well not much at all. YAY!!! Oh and they'll write off any game integrity in the process of giving you next to nothing. Fantastic.

Hey, I'm not even arguing against anything you said. This update seems to only provide the multi-crew mechanics, and I totally agree that it is in desperate need of content tailored around those mechanics. So we def, don't disagree there. My only issue is with those who want the existing mechanics completely unnecessarily hobbled because of "immersion" or other such nonesense.

Asking for the gunner camera to have a physical drone model in the game that other players can see, is a fair suggestion.

Asking for a first-person camera perspective mounted on the individual turrets that the gunner has to scroll through, all the while trying to target fast moving enemy craft at a huge range of distances, with a rather limited control interface (i.e. mouse/HOTAS/controller), is something else entirely.

No offence, but what other games do you play, where you have a multi crew option? just so we have some background reference?

I'm not really sure how that's even relevant...[weird] What does it matter what other multi-crew game do? Other multi-crew games aren't ED with ED combat and flight mechanics, ships, turret weapon placements etc... so it's useless to look at other games because there's no guarantee that those systems would even work the same way in ED.

No offense to you or the other poster, but you need only exercise a little critical thinking to understand the reasons why a close up first-person camera on individual turrets on ED ships won't work at all. The reasons are legion.

 

[CylonSurfer]

Asking for a first-person camera perspective mounted on the individual turrets that the gunner has to scroll through, all the while trying to target fast moving enemy craft at a huge range of distances, with a rather limited control interface (i.e. mouse/HOTAS/controller), is something else entirely.

I honestly don't think it is. Missiles lock on, laser fire is fast, and a crew working together would have the turret operator in position and ready to fire at incoming hostiles. It also is in keeping with the base game and its original objectives - ie. providing a first person space game.

 

[AceFlares]

Please quote the marketing that says "we will never, ever add external camera" or "that's not in the spirit of Elite's universe".

here's a hint: It doesn't exist. That's you projecting what you think the game should be into it. The devs show something else. But now it's no longer the devs forming the game, but you determining that the devs have strayed from the path?

Stop whining for features to be removed you personally dislike. You are not everybody. We'll (3-4 firends I brought into the game) be using the multicrew for PvE a whole lot and have payed the same amount for the game. Why shouldn't we have sensible turret control?

I like 3rd person external cameras. I've stated so at least twice. External cameras are great in single player. They're great for making movies and ship twirling. They're great in EVE (I played that for 5 years mostly PVP and a trillion credits worth of damage) because that is how the game was designed and marketed to be. Giving a single crew person a 360 arcade turret view isn't in keeping with the spirit, history, marketing, the product financial backers and target audience expected. They also provide the multi crewed ship with a huge advantage over someone who hasn't got that camera view. Plus there's the dumbing down the game further when it's already quite easy and not incredibly challenging.

I have not called for the removal of the cameras. I've actually stated I'm not that bothered I'll still keep on playing it. I just rather this was not the way to implement turrets and provided alternatives. Whereas you've trying to shut the debate down with "stop whining".

 

[lysan]

Not when you compare it to the performance of the ship computer handling turrets.

It's one thing to accept a player can jump from turret to turret it's another to expect it to provide any boost over solo play control other than chaff immunity.

Latency, time needed to re-orient, reaction speed and limited FOV would cripple a human's ability to lay on DPS

Arma, DCS +more proves you wrong.

In Arma I can shift amount positions fast and without any problems regarding latency, and the FOV is very limited in some cases.

If you get into some of the new drones, you can managed, arial and ground moving drones, including stationary auto gun positions, so no.
That all include jumping from the different positions in the selected drone.


This was a wrong move from FD, just like CQC it will not be use a whole lot if we look back in 9 -12 month.

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Hey, I'm not even arguing against anything you said. This update seems to only provide the multi-crew mechanics, and I totally agree that it is in desperate need of content tailored around those mechanics. So we def, don't disagree there. My only issue is with those who want the existing mechanics completely unnecessarily hobbled because of "immersion" or other such nonesense.

Asking for the gunner camera to have a physical drone model in the game that other players can see, is a fair suggestion.

Asking for a first-person camera perspective mounted on the individual turrets that the gunner has to scroll through, all the while trying to target fast moving enemy craft at a huge range of distances, with a rather limited control interface (i.e. mouse/HOTAS/controller), is something else entirely.



I'm not really sure how that's even relevant...[weird] What does it matter what other multi-crew game do? Other multi-crew games aren't ED with ED combat and flight mechanics, ships, turret weapon placements etc... so it's useless to look at other games because there's no guarantee that those systems would even work the same way in ED.

No offense to you or the other poster, but you need only exercise a little critical thinking to understand the reasons why a close up first-person camera on individual turrets on ED ships won't work at all. The reasons are legion.

Oh but I do understand, that is why I raise my concern, and I got something to back it up with, experience in OTHER MP games.

 

[CMDR Ofan]

Arma, DCS +more proves you wrong.

In Arma I can shift amount positions fast and without any problems regarding latency, and the FOV is very limited in some cases.

If you get into some of the new drones, you can managed, arial and ground moving drones, including stationary auto gun positions, so no.
That all include jumping from the different positions in the selected drone.


This was a wrong move from FD, just like CQC it will not be use a whole lot if we look back in 9 -12 month.

Armas system is useless for tumbling space combat happening at possibly over 1km/s relative. It's great for slow fixed atmospherics stuff though, hoewever that is not the context here. You want to try to use that to shoot a modded DBS tumbling around your ship with fa off when it's going at 530m/s and you are going at 500m/s in a totally differnt direction and also rotating.

Not even a sniff.

Edit: for clarity the latency I am talking about is not just networking, its human. The brain cannot keep up with that pace in an ever changing orientation where a ship is moving in 3d at high speed as is the target as it the turret itself with no fixed reference point of orientation. the CMDRs in the future might be cybernetically enhanced but we aren't

 

[Goose4291]

Your true motiviation then is actually just fear of getting your behind round-house kicked by better PvP players than you? That's why Frontier should preemptively gimp any game features that might bring anything for combat players?

Firstly I dont have any ulterior motivation, I just can see where this is going and the inevitable next arguing point before it happens.
Secondly, I wouldnt call the one click auto-aim alpha strike kills that this will lead to the calling card of 'better pvpers'.

 

[lysan]

Armas system is useless for tumbling space combat happening at possibly over 1km/s relative. It's great for slow fixed atmospherics stuff though, hoewever that is not the context here. You want to try to use that to shoot a modded DBS tumbling around your ship with fa off when it's going at 530m/s and you are going at 500m/s in a totally differnt direction and also rotating.

Not even a sniff.

Speed is not relevant, how you're oriented is not relevant, I get it you like it, I don't. I call it a wrong move just like CQC lets see how it goes, because this discussion leads to nowhere.

Dreadnought/ fractured Space gameplay in ED, here we go, Yeeehar every body.

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Your true motiviation then is actually just fear of getting your behind round-house kicked by better PvP players than you? That's why Frontier should preemptively gimp any game features that might bring anything for combat players?

What are you actually afraid of there? Three players being huddled in a single ship with expanded turret and missile capabilities that sacrifice the higher dps output of fixed or gimballed weapons? While they could do a whole lot more of backside-kicking with three separate ships, non-turreted and therefore decidedly more dps heavy weapon outfit (while still sporting AI SLF)?



You know full well that it's perfectly possible to spit in the gunners' soup even as of now: Target the guns. But because people around here seem mortally afraid of combat ships getting interesting stuff, we need to clamour for all the zero sum rubbish, do we? "Yeah, ok you can have that. But gimp it so hard that they won't actually want to use it."

FDEV actually gimped the AI to obliteration due to the outcry of the many "it's too hard" players, I guess they now rule the Universe SOLO here I come....

 

[CMDR Ofan]

Speed is not relevant, how you're oriented is not relevant, I get it you like it, I don't. I call it a wrong move just like CQC lets see how it goes, because this discussion leads to nowhere.

Dreadnought/ fractured Space gameplay in ED, here we go, Yeeehar every body.

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FDEV actually gimped the AI to obliteration due to the outcry of the many "it's too hard" players, I guess they now rule the Universe SOLO here I come....

Speed is entirely relevant, at a range of less than 100m a DBS goign at half a km/s is going to flit past yout turrets field of view faster than you can react, additionally faster than you can switch from one turret to another, it's highly relevant and the flaw in the system you are not considering.

Stuff in Arma cannot move like that or at those kinds of speeds which may be why you are not looking at the offest between this and human reaction speed. Being able to switch turrets is not enough with a limited FOV when tracking targets at that speed at close range with tumbling newtonian movement. Every time you switch turett your point of view is different and you have no time to orient and open fire before it's gone again.

It's not about whether I like it or not it's an argument based on practiciality

 

[CmdrChorusLindarr]

I honestly don't think it is. Missiles lock on, laser fire is fast, and a crew working together would have the turret operator in position and ready to fire at incoming hostiles. It also is in keeping with the base game and its original objectives - ie. providing a first person space game.

The highlight part is in no way violated by the gunner's perspective. Is the gunner role the default way of playing ED? Of course not! So what's the problem again?

Arguments about ancillary modes violating the game's "original vision of being a First Person game" are the absolute weakest arguments possible. It essentially amounts to an idea that a "first person game" means that every possible mode made available in said game must be forced to be first person, usability or playability be damned. It's entirely illogical.

Deux Ex Human Revolution is a First Person game. It still allows you to see your character during varying aspects of gameplay, e.g. using the cover system, during special attacks, during conversations. None of those third person perspective systems change the fact that the game is still a FP game.

If your only argument against the new MC gunner tactical cam is "ED supposed to be a FP game", then your basically arguing "I don't like it". In which case, accept that that is merely your own subjective opinion, accept the fact also that others may not share it, and finally accept the fact that the announced solution most likely has been tested internally against other options and found by the devs to be the only workable or at least most sensible option in order to make the newly announced feature work.

 

[CylonSurfer]

Armas system is useless for tumbling space combat happening at possibly over 1km/s relative. It's great for slow fixed atmospherics stuff though, hoewever that is not the context here. You want to try to use that to shoot a modded DBS tumbling around your ship with fa off when it's going at 530m/s and you are going at 500m/s in a totally differnt direction and also rotating.

I'd suspect thats where the coop aspect would come in. That DBS is at some point going stright past, under or over your ship, a coordinated crew will have the gunner on the right turret to do whatever damage he can while that fighter is not visable in the cockpit. A multicrew pilot will be aware of his turret placements and be possitioning his ship to maximum effect. This actually gets people working and communicating together - i'd call that multiplayer, not some dude 200m or more away from my ship.