Gunner = Arcade Action Cam for the 12 yr olds?

[ROSS-128]

I will say, a big problem with all of the "well the game is supposed to be fun, you just hate fun, so shut up" arguments is this: I genuinely believe that my preferred way of doing things would be fun.

And I'm sure the same is true for people who hold more extreme positions than me when it comes to the level of sim they want. They don't hate fun, they believe sims ARE fun.

Heck, I used to play an old game called Allegiance. It was crazy complicated and extremely hard to learn, it had so many keybinds that I basically had to bind every key on my keyboard plus over half of them with Ctl, Shift, or Alt combos. But once I got the hang of the game? I had a blast, it was tons of fun. It's just too bad that the game is 17 years old and showing its age.

Here's how turrets worked in that game:

[video=youtube_share;1WayJcfVp9k]https://youtu.be/1WayJcfVp9k[/video]

(disclaimer: I'm not Zyro, the video is not mine)

And if you're wondering why the video is from 2011 when the game is from 2000, it's because the game is still kicking thanks to some extremely hard-core fan support. There's people who liked the game so much, that they're still willing to play and even work on developing a 17 year old game so that they can enjoy its core experience.

 

[Paramemetic]

I don't have a major issue with the gunner role, just thought it could be done in a better way.

Now the problem I have is why can't there be a 3rd person view to control the ship.

It's all the inconsistencies.

Unlimited range telepresence opens up a whole can of worms for consistency. Unless they are going to fundamentally change the way the whole game works.

in fact unlimited range telepresence is entirely consistent with the setting of Elite, it would be "telepresence has limited range" which would be inconsistent. Remember that this is a setting where galaxy-wide instant data transfer is 100% an accepted, canonical thing. It's how your navigation computer can update with new discoveries all the way at Beagle Point. It's how GalNet can get you the latest news from the Bubble all the way in Colonia. It's how the Pilot's Federation knows to upgrade you to Elite when you kill that last person. It's how Arena works in universe, so it's straight up been "this is already in Elite" since CQC dropped.

"Realer than life" VR is also a thing in Elite, it's how Pranav Antal has become so powerful as a Simguru, with millions of devoted cultists paying to enjoy absolute bliss in his virtual pure-land, thus making him very rich.

What would be inconsistent would be if these two technologies were not married. I've noticed there are a lot of people trying to say they feel like this is somehow inconsistent or breaks the setting when, in fact, it is the most consistent and the most correct to the Elite setting. The people who are saying "well this just doesn't make sense in Elite" are people who apparently do not "get" the Elite setting, which is understandable as it is revealed through playing this and previous games, and previous games, not being as fleshed out and detailed (wireframe does that), left more room for people to imagine Elite to be something it's not.

Holographic telepresence and galaxy-wide instant data transfer are straight up Things in this setting. The canonical Dark Wheel novel even talks about it (albeit in the context of how expensive it is, in the case of instant data transfer - expense, of course, is no issue for the Pilot's Federation, but that's why there are still conventional comms). You're trying to demand consistency with the lore and setting while not, apparently, understanding that the things you're arguing against are staples of the setting.

 

[Chpouky]

I really, really like the display from the thumbnail ! Such a display inside a cockpit shouldn't be hard to do.

So the gunner picks his targets in a RTS-style view with a holographic display inside the ship.

It can be a good balance between a more sim-like approach and fun ! It just needs some satisfying visuals and sound effects.

 

[h347h]

I don't have a major issue with the gunner role, just thought it could be done in a better way.

Now the problem I have is why can't there be a 3rd person view to control the ship.

It's all the inconsistencies.

Unlimited range telepresence opens up a whole can of worms for consistency. Unless they are going to fundamentally change the way the whole game works.

I don't think consistency is on their agenda anymore. Which has its ups and downs. No need to change how the whole game works because they want to get people into action with their friends ASAP.

 

[ROSS-128]

I really, really like the display from the thumbnail ! Such a display inside a cockpit shouldn't be hard to do.

So the gunner picks his targets in a RTS-style view with a holographic display inside the ship.

It can be a good balance between a more sim-like approach and fun ! It just needs some satisfying visuals and sound effects.

No, the thumbnail is just someone with their map open. The gunner's camera is in the ship, but they're able to turn independently. Since they don't inherit the ship's rotation at all, the gunner's view is very stable.

Although, because the game is from 2000 the turrets also aren't visibly modeled and don't have firing arcs, so they can also fire everything in 360 degrees. That's more a consequence of ancient engine limitations than anything else though.

 

[Nuarb]

I really, really like the display from the thumbnail ! Such a display inside a cockpit shouldn't be hard to do.

So the gunner picks his targets in a RTS-style view with a holographic display inside the ship.

It can be a good balance between a more sim-like approach and fun ! It just needs some satisfying visuals and sound effects.

You're already in VR, why do you need to simulate sitting in a chair looking at your monitor when you can simulate the tactical display directly?




Heres a helpful diagram of why this is all silly.


Here's you:

Happy go lucky commander


Here's how you multicrew:

Notice either way you're seeing a virtualization, you're not really in either place. It only makes sense then to view a different virtual position, than to have virtual position #1 look at a worse tactical overview.

 

[Chpouky]

No, the thumbnail is just someone with their map open. The gunner's camera is in the ship, but they're able to turn independently. Since they don't inherit the ship's rotation at all, the gunner's view is very stable.

Although, because the game is from 2000 the turrets also aren't visibly modeled and don't have firing arcs, so they can also fire everything in 360 degrees. That's more a consequence of ancient engine limitations than anything else though.

I know. What I'm saying is, that thumbnail feels like a good idea to me for the gunner view.

Using a single turret "Millenium Falcon Like" is nonsense in Elite, there are too much turrets on one ship.
You will end up constantly switching between turrets, that's stupid imo.

Also I don't think the "telepresence" thing is a good way of seeing it. It's like that FOR NOW, because it's a placeholder until spacelegs.

 

[Nuarb]

Also I don't think the "telepresence" thing is a good way of seeing it. It's like that FOR NOW, because it's a placeholder until spacelegs.

All I can tell you is it will always be telepresence, it's not a placeholder, even if spacelegs come it will be your hologram walking around your friends ship.

For gameplay reasons, you will never physically move your commander onto someone elses ship. It brings up too many terrible game play problems to deal with. What happens if you're on your friends ship and he logs out? what if you want to play but he's at work? What if he wants to sell his ship for an eagle but you're not around and still in it? Not to mention how unbelievably unplayable it would be if you had to be at the same physical location as your friend to join her ship.

So yeah, it will always be telepresence, no matter what comes down the pipe.

 

[bitstorm]

For the realism folk still living in 1984, this seems like a reasonable representation of ship gunnery combat circa 3000.

(Of course they would actually all be in VR or similar but it's tv innit)

[video=youtube;XhKWeGXduzs]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XhKWeGXduzs[/video]

I mean if you want to run over and "sit in a chair turret" fine, can't see it being very effective for a combat vessel though.

BTW The Expanse is awesome you should all be watching it!

 

[Chpouky]

All I can tell you is it will always be telepresence, it's not a placeholder, even if spacelegs come it will be your hologram walking around your friends ship.
What happens if you're on your friends ship and he logs out?

You're logged out as well.

What if you want to play but he's at work?

What ? If he's at work he can't play then. I don't understand your point ?

What if he wants to sell his ship for an eagle but you're not around and still in it?

Popup message: "Please empty the ship before selling it", with a countdown. If people don't leave, the game logs them out.
Or better, everyone except the owner is teleported somewhere on the landing pad.

Not to mention how unbelievably unplayable it would be if you had to be at the same physical location as your friend to join her ship.

Why is that ?

 

[RandomGun]

Now the problem I have is why can't there be a 3rd person view to control the ship.

But didn't we almost see this in the stream? I mean the improved ctrl-alt-space camera. Although, unlike the gunner's view it didn't have the combat HUD.

I'm very much immersion and realism fan but I would love a virtual combat / landing / exploration view. It is believable technology. Also, we already have SRV turret view, soon gunner's view and this would just create the same for the pilot.

Now, there could be some (artificial) visual remainder that the view is actually computer generated. Or there could be some downsides to this like ECM / weapons / FSD causing interferences to the view.

And I would still like to bodily walk in the cockpit, outside the ship in a space suit and in the stations. Virtual existence and bodily existence are not mutually exclusive.

 

[Nuarb]

Why is that ?

If you don't have to be in the same physical location, than its exactly as it is now, like i said, its telepresence. The only other option is you now want there to be literal star trek beaming technology?

Thats the whole problem, if YOU are on your friends ship when he logs out, how will you play the game without him logging back in? If it just teleports you back to your ship, congratulations you're arguing for the system thats in now, telepresence, or you want star trek with interstellar beaming distances.

 

[Azirphaeli]

If I can play Elite in VR today, my future elite character can play VR in his ship. That's what the external camera is to me. Then its me playing VR while I'm playing VR. What is real anymore?!

 

[ROSS-128]

In my case, I actually don't specifically have a problem with telepresence.

However, seeing as we apparently have super high-bandwidth galactic internet, I would like to be able to actually use it for other things. Like viewing commodity prices, picking up/turning in (non-cargo) missions, confirming kills, uploading exploration data, and online banking.

 

[Chpouky]

If you don't have to be in the same physical location, than its exactly as it is now, like i said, its telepresence. The only other option is you now want there to be literal star trek beaming technology?

You don't understand. I'm saying we HAVE to be in the same physical location.
I don't want beaming for that. What I'm saying is, if you want to join your mate in his ship, then meet him somewhere in a base and go physically in it.

You didn't answer my question. You said it would be unplayable, I asked why.

Thats the whole problem, if YOU are on your friends ship when he logs out, how will you play the game without him logging back in?

Then just take control of his ship...

If it just teleports you back to your ship, congratulations you're arguing for the system thats in now, telepresence, or you want star trek with interstellar beaming distances.

The teleport thing is a last resort solution. It's like, in some games if you go outside the allowed area, you're teleported back where you can be.
Even if it's a World War 1 game, who cares, the teleport thing doesn't have to be justified, it's just needed to avoid problems.

If you want to buy a smaller ship and have too much people in yours, if they don't want to leave, then just let the game force-spawn the crew outside, on the pad.


Also, Frontier plans to allow us to board a ship. How do you think it will work with telepresence ?

You board it, and log out for whatever reason. I'll ask the kind of question your asking me now: What happens to your ship after that ?
It just vanishes ? Oh so the ship is not really there and also tele-something ?

It has to stay physically there. It's the same for what we are talking now (the "friend logs out" case).
If you friend leaves, ship stays there, you take control of it.

OR, if that doesn't work for gameplay reasons, your player is just spawned back in the base you left your ship in, and your friend's ship leaves into hyperspace.
OR, the ship just auto hyperspace to the station where you left, with you inside, I don't know.
There are many possible options for that scenario.

 

[Paramemetic]

Now the problem I have is why can't there be a 3rd person view to control the ship.

As far as we know, it's the same reason that the spaceships all still have honest-to-god cockpits with glass canopies: the Pilot's Federation says so. Same reason you aren't allowed to fly a spaceship via telepresence but rather the Helmsman/Pilot has to be physically on the ship. It's a Pilot's Federation regulation and anything they say goes because they are above and beyond the most powerful organization in the galaxy.

The technology definitely exists for a third person pilotable ship in Elite, but for whatever reason the Pilot's Federation does not allow that. There are any number of reasons why that might be the case, perhaps they don't trust that a 3rd person view couldn't be compromised, or perhaps there are concerns that virtual reality is too immersive and the pilot's reaction times might be slower. Maybe the concern is just that third person view for piloting the ship itself isn't that useful. Or it could just be tradition, Pilot's Federation CMDRs have been flying their ships manually from the cockpit since the first days and since they essentially started out as a space pilot union, they don't want to budge on this because it would make it easier for non-CMDRs to fly better.

But for whatever reason the PF doesn't allow flight via telepresence, and it doesn't allow third person operation of the spaceship (except using the vanity camera, but that's not really suitable for real flight because you don't have your instruments).

 

[Nuarb]

You don't understand. I'm saying we HAVE to be in the same physical location.
I don't want beaming for that. What I'm saying is, if you want to join your mate in his ship, then meet him somewhere in a base and go physically in it.

If you can just telepresence whats the benefit of them landing at your station and physically getting on? Why do that instead of holo sitting on theirs? If what you want is multicrew to REQUIRE that in order to join up at all then, well, go play a different game because that will never be the case in elite. If you had to go through all that it would go virtually unused by the majority, all that hard work, all those features, created for nothing. It would also be zero fun, no fun at all. It would fundamentally destroy multicrewing.

The teleport thing is a last resort solution. It's like, in some games if you go outside the allowed area, you're teleported back where you can be.
Even if it's a World War 1 game, who cares, the teleport thing doesn't have to be justified, it's just needed to avoid problems.

Here's the meat of it, they already did implement teleporting as a last resort because its a video game. They absolutely chose to justify it though, and came up with a lore explanation for video game necessary teleporting, the holo telepresence. They already did what you're saying.

 

[Doot]

As far as we know, it's the same reason that the spaceships all still have honest-to-god cockpits with glass canopies: the Pilot's Federation says so.

This can't be overstated. Look at this from one of the game newsletters:

"Over the centuries the Pilots Federation has remained secretive in nature and neutral in conflicts, and has grown into one of the dominant financial superpowers of the galaxy through its GalNet data network. Originally a star chart, ship data and bounty management system, GalNet has evolved into an effective galactic infrastructure and content monopoly on news, market pricing and communication systems. This has not been without controversy, with periodic claims of data hoarding and abuse of its position."

The PF is like the super-superpower. Above the Federation, Empire, and Alliance. They are so rich and powerful they dictate their terms to the big three and those governments have no choice but to go along with it. Every human ship in the galaxy runs a PF programmed and approved operating system and that controls everything pilots can see or hear. You see what they want you to see and know only what they want you to know. In the Lore they have even un-personed people and it's like they just vanished, or un-existed places by simply striking it from all computer systems everywhere so it's like it never existed. They can block you from going where they don't want you to go by putting permits in place and your ship just blocks you, your own ship. Noticed all those clearly alien related systems are blocked by permits? The devs even brought this up on a stream about it and said basically: "well who controls your computers?"

What control the superpowers, powers and factions have are just what the PF has delegated to them at this point in the Elite setting. The Pilot's Federation runs humanity.

 

[Chpouky]

If you can just telepresence whats the benefit of them landing at your station and physically getting on? Why do that instead of holo sitting on theirs?

That's why I'm saying Holopresence is a temporary thing until spacelegs. When spacelegs will be out, the holo thing won't be necessary anymore, and they'll take it out of the game.

Spacelegs are far from coming soon, so they HAVE to come up with a temporary solution, they HAVE to.
Otherwise, we'd have to wait aaaaall the way until the spaceleg release to be able to multicrew.

They absolutely chose to justify it though, and came up with a lore explanation for video game necessary teleporting, the holo telepresence. They already did what you're saying.

No. The kind of teleport/spawn i'm talking about is like what happens now in the game when you die, you spawn back to a station.

 

[Nuarb]

That's why I'm saying Holopresence is a temporary thing until spacelegs. When spacelegs will be out, the holo thing won't be necessary anymore, and they'l take it out of the game.

Spacelegs are far from coming soon, so they HAVE to come up with a temporary solution.

You are setting yourself up for disappointment if you truly believe that in the far off future, if they ever implement walking around, that they will effectively remove multicrew from the game.

Telepresence will always be the case because person A logs on, wants to play with person B, so they join up, person A pops into person B's ship, and they have fun. You seem to want a world where person A logs in, but person B is 20 jumps away, so person A can't be bothered and just goes and watches netflix.

They will never sabotage their own game and hard work.