Gunner = Arcade Action Cam for the 12 yr olds?

[CylonSurfer]

okay

It's first person all the way Unless we change our minds later.
"notice the Unless we change our minds later."

For the sake of cool screenshots, I hope you have some sort of outside drone camera view available?
We have the ability to do that, I don't know if it'll remain for you guys to play with in that form but I'm sure we would offer some form of tool for doing that sort of thing. I strongly doubt you'll be able to fly your ship whilst doing it though.

"I strongly doubt you'll be able to fly your ship whilst doing it though." The vanity Cam is not combat. During combat the pilot is flying the ship and in a First Person perspective.

Both out of context.

"We want this to be you in your cockpit, third person changes the game to something different and isn't what we want for the game.

Michael"

We can go all day, the point is that people were of the impression that the game would never have third person cameras from very early on. Of course they're annoyed there some now.

 

[lysan]

okay

It's first person all the way Unless we change our minds later.
"notice the Unless we change our minds later."

For the sake of cool screenshots, I hope you have some sort of outside drone camera view available?
We have the ability to do that, I don't know if it'll remain for you guys to play with in that form but I'm sure we would offer some form of tool for doing that sort of thing. I strongly doubt you'll be able to fly your ship whilst doing it though.

"I strongly doubt you'll be able to fly your ship whilst doing it though." The vanity Cam is not combat. During combat the pilot is flying the ship and in a First Person perspective.

Both out of context.

Actually not, it shows that FDEV drifted away from the original pitched idea.


They should just come clear with it, instead of hiding behind a wall of silence.

""We changed our mind, it's now this direction, now bug-off"" *(I would prefer that kind of talk as then we would know the direction of the game)

* Imaginary qoute

 

[jasonbarron]

Are you trying to do reverse psychology? Because that's how you do reverse psychology. Anyhow, you're welcome on my ship, I'll let you play with my big gun.

I really only want to play with your big gun in 1st person, though; this 3rd person thing isn't working for me

 

[Winterwalker]

"We want this to be you in your cockpit, third person changes the game to something different and isn't what we want for the game.

Michael"

Pretty poweful.

Weirdly I don't have 'massive' issues with a virtual camera idea (image composited from sensor data, with a model of the ship overlaid, aka parking assistance) but would certainly prefer that not be rammed down your throat as a first impression (is .. if not immersion .. illusion breaking)

For me, if the first view you see from the gunner position had the virtual camera pushed forward a few metres (so the ship is hidden below the camera) and you had a scanner zoom feature to pull back, and can now see the ship, I'm not dead set against the idea of the gunner having a really good view of the surrounding area. It's meant to be advanced scanning capabilites after all, I can dig it.

Largely a perception thing for me I DO feel it's an important one given the 70% vote for ship transfer delays. I don't like the third person view presented when the gunner view opened in the livestream demo, unless that virtual camera is given a small part of the capabilites that a virtual cam would have (ie. you could move it).

There is a zoom on the view, but that zooms the HUD too so that's quite diferent, aka. well and good but for me falls short of virtual camera control, because you lose the HUD when you zoom in. Moving the virtual camera forward would be, relatively simple, though whether you could assign different positions for it depends I think on how the HUD zoom has been built and whether the scanner zoom assignments have been left free..

 

[Muetdhiver]

It happens when you sell your soul to the non-pc crowd who are much younger and are apart of the "If it breathes will can kill it!" mentality. Will soon be no old style games left.

This type of garbage elitist attitude is exactly why I have a very hard time taking seriously what any of the self professed "old-farts" say about game difficulty and immersion.
Then again, old people have been complainging about youngsters in antique greece in the same lines, so, I guess that some things never change.

Old games where mostly crap compared to what we get now. Some where difficult sure, but a lot of it was pattern learning and timings. What old games have that new ones
don't : massive nostalgia generation. I think that is part of the drive to keep ED in a retro-futuristic setting, instead of an actual sci-fi setting.

Am I nostalgic of Civ I ? Sure. Is CiV VI a better game than Civ I ? Hell yeah.

 

[Phoenix_Dfire]

I was playing I-War II, which has a similar 3rd person turret view if you switch into the gunner station, and Freelancer which you can't really play without the the 3rd person view (IMHO).

I think people's fears are this is going to be like Freelancer, which would be worrying, and it mostly comes down to control method. If you can control the turrets with quake like mouse precision, then I think it will change the nature of the game. If this has more of an I-War II feel, then I don't think we've got anything to worry about. You can explain the 3rd person view with either camera drones (wish you could jam them with ECM, that would throw the cat among the pigeons) or if you have the computing power to generate holograms of other crew, creating a 3rd person gunner's hologram isn't beyond the pale.

The thing that reassures me that this will be ok, is the fact that turrets have their arcs restricted (i.e. they don't fire through the ship) But we'll have to wait to see how this will play, before we can make a proper judgement if this new gunnery station works.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

Considering I am very happy with how 2'3 is shaping up, I dont have to try anything.

Your description of Immersion is 100% incorrect sorry. People get immersed playing angry birds or tetris. I am sure you get immersed as well, but to crap on poeple who don't like the way it's implemented is pretty unpleasent. It's also pretty stupid to crap on people who want immersion, because you pretty much crap on yourself as well.

What most people want is consistancy within the game, as nothing seems to be making any sense anymore, it already had some inconsistancies which could be glossed over, but the 3rd person cam doesn't make sense (I don't mind it, I prefer something else), why couldnt the pilot use a similar system to pilot and fight the ship in a 3rd person way as well.

Nothing is consistant. They try to make the game as 1st person as possible, but completely break those rules for what looks like an easy solution.

 

[Tarman]

I was playing I-War II, which has a similar 3rd person turret view if you switch into the gunner station, and Freelancer which you can't really play without the the 3rd person view (IMHO).

I think people's fears are this is going to be like Freelancer, which would be worrying, and it mostly comes down to control method. If you can control the turrets with quake like mouse precision, then I think it will change the nature of the game. If this has more of an I-War II feel, then I don't think we've got anything to worry about. You can explain the 3rd person view with either camera drones (wish you could jam them with ECM, that would throw the cat among the pigeons) or if you have the computing power to generate holograms of other crew, creating a 3rd person gunner's hologram isn't beyond the pale.

The thing that reassures me that this will be ok, is the fact that turrets have their arcs restricted (i.e. they don't fire through the ship) But we'll have to wait to see how this will play, before we can make a proper judgement if this new gunnery station works.

...you mean...

...wait, and like, SEE how they work... and then make judgements and criticisms of it like, AFTER we see the feature in action instead of BEFORE...

... you mean that?

 

[JuicerPrime]

This whole 3PV thing reminds me of when the MWO forums were up in arms over the idea. It would provide pilots with unfair view advantages, sky falling, devs failing, etc. Now you can see one of the adorable 3PV camera drones bobbing behind a 'mech now and again and the promised external-view apocalypse failed to materialize.

OP, if you can't wrap your head around 3PV for the gunnery display from an immersion standpoint, just call it a real-time simulation on the gunnery display. Elite's ships have sensor arrays weighing many tons and can mount systems capable of providing in-depth maps and analysis of solar bodies in just a few seconds - letting them extrapolate a gunnery model of surrounding space isn't that much of a stretch.

For my part, I really don't mind. A 3PV will make it much easier for the gunner to do the gunner's job, whatever the source. Mixes nicely with the new upcoming external camera options too.

...you mean...

...wait, and like, SEE how they work... and then make judgements and criticisms of it like, AFTER we see the feature in action instead of BEFORE...

... you mean that?

^ This too.

 

[Winterwalker]

The thing that reassures me that this will be ok, is the fact that turrets have their arcs restricted (i.e. they don't fire through the ship)

Yup. Nicely done, the whole 2.3 as far as I can tell except (the 3rd person) ...

But we'll have to wait to see how this will play, before we can make a proper judgement if this new gunnery station works.

Absolutely. For me beta can't come soon enough because "ED has gone full arcade" is imo bad for the game's image overall. Highly high, hi-tech, yes please. Images of 3rd person shooter no thanks but it's only because, I'm sure everyone hopes, you want ED to keep kudos that you'd even care.

 

[Zambrick]

I was asked for a quote where the devs stated there would not be 3rd person cameras usable while flying or in combat. I provided one with little effort. Here is another from Michael Brookes:

"We want this to be you in your cockpit, third person changes the game to something different and isn't what we want for the game.

Michael"

Its certainly not something I'm basing any argument on. I merely stating that many people here, myself included were of the impression due to what had been said by developers both pre and post-launch pointed to the fact that ED wouldn't have third person cameras. Along with the game being marketed as a first person space game. This update doesn't fit with that and people (not everyone) are annoyed - I think that is understandable.

Need the links.

I can quote Elvis as saying. "Well I believe life on the moon is super cool. Been living here since everyone thought I was dead."

Elvis Presley
19whoever gives a crap.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

He is just frustrated, dont mind him.

No im not. Just annoyed at people having a pop at others because they have a difference of opinion and trying to be insulting. It makes me sad at how unpleasent some poeple are. It's just a shame some people can't be abit nicer about other peoples opinions.

So basically it get me down seeing so many unpleasent people on these forums.

 

[lysan]

...you mean...

...wait, and like, SEE how they work... and then make judgements and criticisms of it like, AFTER we see the feature in action instead of BEFORE...

... you mean that?

Reminds me of this ......

Spoiler

[video=youtube;FOzVkSFnKxI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOzVkSFnKxI[/video]

 

[Phoenix_Dfire]

...you mean...

...wait, and like, SEE how they work... and then make judgements and criticisms of it like, AFTER we see the feature in action instead of BEFORE...

... you mean that?

Hell no!!

Carry on making rash judgments and complain that the game is over because of the 3rd person view.

I've got plenty of popcorn to keep going. :O

I'm just saying not all 3rd person views are console like immersion breakers.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

Need the links.

I can quote Elvis as saying. "Well I believe life on the moon is super cool. Been living here since everyone thought I was dead."

Elvis Presley
19whoever gives a crap.

I tried linking them but it doesn't seem to be possible. You need to do a search.

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/10005-Is-the-cockpit-necessary

Here is one.

 

[Ian Skippy]

Your description of Immersion is 100% incorrect sorry. People get immersed playing angry birds or tetris. I am sure you get immersed as well, but to crap on poeple who don't like the way it's implemented is pretty unpleasent. It's also pretty stupid to crap on people who want immersion, because you pretty much crap on yourself as well.

What most people want is consistancy within the game, as nothing seems to be making any sense anymore, it already had some inconsistancies which could be glossed over, but the 3rd person cam doesn't make sense (I don't mind it, I prefer something else), why couldnt the pilot use a similar system to pilot and fight the ship in a 3rd person way as well.

Nothing is consistant. They try to make the game as 1st person as possible, but completely break those rules for what looks like an easy solution.

Again: just because something doesnt make sense to you, doesnt mean there is no sense. I am sure there are many, many things that dont make sense to you. Reality doesnt particulary care about it, though. Same here. If you really cannot wrap your head around a 3D representation based on sensor data, or the usage of miniature drone cameras that already exist today, then that is something you just have to figure out on your own. Which is exactly what I said: you want 1st person turrets, like with B17 bombers, because anything more advanced 'doesnt make sense' to you. Well, tough luck.

And as many other 'immersion crowd' people, the understanding of what a game is seems to be rather limited. You are immortal. You get an insurance policy that would bankrupt any company in a day. Upon death, you get insta-beamed physically across the galaxy. Anyone with $20 gets to fly a spaceship: no exams or age restrictions at all. 400t of cargo gets loaded instantly. None of it 'makes sense'. Its a game.

So \yYou are playing a game. On some levels, there are many, many inconsistencies. As with any game. If there werent', you would not be allowed to fly a ship at all and even if you were, you wouldnt like it anymore. In isolation, the 3rd person turret cam makes a lot of sense. Maybe not to you. But thats something else.

- - - Updated - - -

No im not. Just annoyed at people having a pop at others because they have a difference of opinion and trying to be insulting. It makes me sad at how unpleasent some poeple are. It's just a shame some people can't be abit nicer about other peoples opinions.

So basically it get me down seeing so many unpleasent people on these forums.

Pot, meet kettle.

 

[Winterwalker]

Reminds me of this ......

If it's a concern to some, it may become a concern for many, so pointing out concerns doesn't hurt. Frontier could be tweaking the view in response to feedback over the weekend as we speak, fine tuning before beta even launches.

 

[lysan]

If it's a concern to some, it may become a concern for many, so pointing out concerns doesn't hurt. Frontier could be tweaking the view in response to feedback over the weekend as we speak, fine tuning before beta even launches.

Not disagreeing here, I think that is pretty clear

 

[Zambrick]

Actually not, it shows that FDEV drifted away from the original pitched idea.


They should just come clear with it, instead of hiding behind a wall of silence.

""We changed our mind, it's now this direction, now bug-off"" *(I would prefer that kind of talk as then we would know the direction of the game)

* Imaginary qoute

Would you reply to anything that anyone says on this Forum? The hate and vile toxic crap that spills out of peoples mouths on every single new change being made to the game. Would you really like to talk to someone who calls you a at every possible chance?

I would let us rot as well. Any answer they provide regardless as to what answer they provide, you will still hate it. Dialog happens both ways, but after 20 plus pages of negative crap. Now you have a bunch of self entitled community members calling a game they worked on for the last 5 years as a game that is only suitable for a 12 year old to play. Somehow now "Arcade" has been adopted as another hate word on the forums.

Arcades were something they all grew up with and now you are deeming mine and their fun adolescence years as something terrible. You are also being ageists by stating that a 12 year olds mental development level is so low that anything they enjoy or contribute is less than nothing. (When in all actuality 12 year olds are doing classes in 7th grade that you were doing as a senior in high school or a freshmen in college.)


I wouldnt talk to us either.

- - - Updated - - -

I tried linking them but it doesn't seem to be possible. You need to do a search.

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/10005-Is-the-cockpit-necessary

Here is one.

We absolutely think the cockpit is necessary, we are looking at some situations and methods for external views, but the primary interface is the cockpit. It is the environment in which you exist as much as the method by which you control the game.

Michael

"primary interface"

It still is the primary interface. The owner and pilot of the ship cannot engage in external drone view combat. Only secondary telepresence individuals.

 

[Vorxian]

Well I just watched some youtubes of it all in action.

Must admit that after some laughing, quiet contemplation, and slow-mo flashbacks of developer historical views on 'non cockpit' game play.. I have one simple conclusion.

People can try to formulate clever metaphors as to how a 3rd person view could work, or may work, or whatever.. but in reality the resounding answer is this: "third person changes the game to something different and isn't what we want for the game."

No matter how you encase it, ED never was conceptualised as being third person. Even the whole drone thing for an outside view of your ship was thought about and only put in for the huge demand for it.

This whole detached from your ship, magical witchspace view just does not feel or look inline with what ED should be.

This is more like it!

Not having some kind of magical view of your ship from up there...