Gunner = Arcade Action Cam for the 12 yr olds?

[Ziljan]

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/8589-3rd-person-view/page4

Quote ( Mike Evans Mike Evans is offline Designer- Elite: Dangerous ):



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"
(Quote by someone else see source)
Half the reason to ensure any 3rd person view can't be used effectively in a combat situation is for unfairness and forcing the path of least resistance on all players undermining all our work in the cockpit.

The second and arguably more important half is that a 3rd person way to play the game runs completely counter to the experience we're trying to sell; that is you, the pilot, experiencing space flight and combat from a first person view, the most immersive way to play the game.

I do not buy for one second that treating your real life monitors as your "cockpit" windows into space is a better way to handle it unless you've actually built yourself a sidewinder cockpit in real life in which to sit within when you play the game, with monitors positioned through the canopy structure and bespoke controls dotted around to interact with.

Secondly any such approach to playing the game requires that we slap on some floaty, gamified UI on top of the view to make sure you can actually play the game in the first place with your monitor into space set up which would also obscure your view in much the same way our 3D cockpits do except it wont look as good.

Thirdly you wouldn't see each ships bespoke cockpit layout and design any more and there would be no point us working hard to make these ships feel and look real when half or more of the player base will just hide them away at the earliest opportunity.
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for what its worth.

Imo its obvious ED was designed with cockpit view in mind, and I see no reason to break this with multicrew.

I dont get why 3rd person should be necessary either I ok with weapon officer controlling multiple turrets but that can be done in first person prfectly fine, just have some periscope camera on top and below the ship and available turrets slaved to that, but in the refined iteration I think a gunner cockpit should be implemented.

Awesome!!! Good to know that Frontier sees this from a sane and logical viewpoint dating back several years. Which means they were likely loath to use a 3rd person turret, but caved out of necessity. Still a troubling trend, but hopefully they value their own IP enough not to undermine the FPS cockpit view anymore going forward.

Virtual hi 5 to Mike Evans after reading that quote

 

[Zambrick]

Well most of your examples are in cockpit example. The camera is to take pictures and that is its sole purpose, it does not affect gameplay.

Telepresence I am already not happy with. There where far better solutions which still included instant play.

In fact most of your argument are strawman. Most of us want a better, more fun system then the 3rd person version we are getting. They way I would have had it would have similar functionality as the 3rd person, but design it as full 360 HUD around the gunnery position that moves around on a gimbal independent of the ships movement.

Would have looked great, be immersive and likely would have been as much or more fun then the current system.

Instead of the extra pip, I would have prefered a whole pipe section for the weapons. Basically the pips for the weapons system equaLs the amount of power you have available from the helm. Each weapon has 2 pips which is that power evenly distributed amongst your weapons, you can move those pips around to overcharge your weapon, but at the expanse of more heat and possible damage to the weapons as they are not designed to use that power.

Gives the gunner options and tactics which equals more fun.

If you have zero pips you just nend to use the power left in the batteries in a good way. But if that happens you are defending anyway so it would be time for a shield cell or something like that.

If you looked down in VR/IR Tracker you could still see yourself, so it would still be an In cockpit experience.

For me that would have been great and was introduced like that I bet there would be very few complaints. There obviously would be some, there always are.

Strawman would mean I am over blowing a statement with the intention of refuting your statement using opinions or non facts related to this topic. I gave brief concise statements of things that already exist and I was not refuting anything. I stated facts of the game state now versus the statement used in Mikes original post.

I dont mind a new mechanic even different from the third person view.

What I do mind is calling the game an Arcade game like its actually demeaning term. I also mind the suggestion that a young person must be simple minded and therefore anyone who enjoys a new mechanic is somehow a dumb child.

If you can provide a new better way of doing it then great. Go for it. However for the time being this is what is being delivered.

This is just another topic like instant transfers, Planetary view scans, and anything else that is now a worthless feature in the game. Every single update that has come out since the ship transfers debacle has been met with unparalleled venom and hatred on the part of a very specific few people.

In fact the vast majority of those same people are complaining about this 3rd person argument. Their unending crusade to kill the development of the game on the alter of immersion is getting tiring. The fact that they cant see beyond what they want, even if it improves the game. If these people get their way, then you can say goodbye to any new players in the future.

Eventually this thing will be a real time space simulation and you can check back every 5 years or so to see if you are closer to that one station.(by the way the last sentence was strawman argument if you want an example.)

I just want these people to shut up, try the game, then make the decision. They are too stubborn or too ignorant to even attempt it.

Its liken to the attempt to feed a 4 year old a new food. No I dont want it it looks icky, Come on its ice cream its great....No, No, I dont like it I wont eat and you cant make me. That is all I hear from this forum any longer.

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

Strawman would mean I am over blowing a statement with the intention of refuting your statement using opinions or non facts related to this topic. I gave brief concise statements of things that already exist and I was not refuting anything. I stated facts of the game state now versus the statement used in Mikes original post.

I dont mind a new mechanic even different from the third person view.

What I do mind is calling the game an Arcade game like its actually demeaning term. I also mind the suggestion that a young person must be simple minded and therefore anyone who enjoys a new mechanic is somehow a dumb child.

If you can provide a new better way of doing it then great. Go for it. However for the time being this is what is being delivered. This is just another topic like instant transfers, Planetary view scans, and anything else that is now a worthless feature in the game. Every single update that has come out since the ship transfers debacle has been met with unparalleled venom and hatred on the part of a very specific few people. In fact the vast majority of those people are complaining about that. Their unending crusade to kill the development of the game on the alter of immersion is getting tiring. The fact that they cant see beyond what they want even if it improves the game is the problem. If these people get their way, then you can say goodbye to any new players in the future.

Eventually this thing will be a real time space simulation and you can check back every 5 years or so to see if you are closer to that one station.(by the way the last sentence was strawman argument if you want an example.)

I just want these people to shut up, try the game, then make the decision. They are too stubborn or too ignorant to even attempt it. I

ts liken to the attempt to feed a 4 year old a new food. No I dont want it it looks icky, Come on its ice cream its great....No, No, I dont like it I wont eat and you cant make me. That is all I hear from this forum any longer.

And I have never said any of those things yet. But you do demand proof, but don't want to give any yourself, and just dismiss people because they can't find the link that was 3-4 years old. Yep strawman fallacy to me.

I have said a number times that I can live with the current mechanic but I still get attacked because I prefer something that would have been better in my opinion.

 

[Zambrick]

And I have never said any of those things yet. But you do demand proof, but don't want to give any yourself, and just dismiss people because they can't find the link that was 3-4 years old. Yep strawman fallacy to me.

I have said a number times that I can live with the current mechanic but I still get attacked because I prefer something that would have been better in my opinion.

What proof do I have to provide? I did not base my argument off of a singular game designer from 4 years ago. I read those posts and gave examples of how the statements have already been broken. I then provided the fact that space legs would destroy that point of view even further.

What is it you are trying to defend? You jumped on my statement and obviously didnt read any of my previous ones. I did not attack you, I defended my points and facts that already exist. How is that attacking your opinion?

You didnt say any of those things, yet you are defending someone who did. Look at the name of the thread. If you want to start an alternative thread with better ideas that would be great.

However with almost every other thread that isnt super negative or straight up game hating, it will fall off the first page in a matter of minutes. I have as of yet been able to start a success thread about gaming ideas and proposed changes. It doesnt have enough hate in it in order to stay on the first page.

 

[lysan]

And this singular designer now also opposes the idea of a 3rd person cam for turrets in multicrew? Have we word of that singular designer or do they maybe even think that the current implementation is what they want it to be? Did that singular designer also know about multicrew some years ago and made the statement with foresight?

Or did that singular designer even have a hand in the current multicrew implementation?

nope I don't see his fingerprint on it, but could be wrong.

 

[DooWopDuodenum]

1st person ball turrets just don't sound fun and also have been improved upon in the thousand years in between WW2 and whenever Elite takes place. If I let a friendly random shoot the fancy turrets I bought it want them to use all of them. They're meant to defend my ship and I want every available resource working in unison.

 

[Trash Gordon]

Yes from a singular designer. Not Sandro.

Second no mention of multi crew.

Third 4 years ago.

Forth The Pilot is not in third person view. A specified gunner is.

5th This is already broken because we have SRVs

6th It was broken again with SLFs.

7th Wings provide a 3d person the rest of your wing team members and gives you an unfair advantage according to you.

This 4 year old post was the opinion of a singular designer. Not the views of the company. If it was not posted by Braben, Brookes, or Sandro, then it means nothing as far as major decisions are concerned. Seeing as how Sandro was in the live stream promoting the view, I dont know what it is you are trying to whine about.

Yep its just an example theres a lot more and similar qotes to find, now Frontier added 3rd person cameras so far without huds and the ability for combat.

We have qutes from devs on the topic, now its on you to show quotes supporting 3rd person as we do not have any indication if their standpoint has changed, how about you show us dev posts that support your viewpoint?

 

[sorcer3r]

Multi-crew was announced and now it is more or less a gunner mode.
This feels already "incomplete".
But now the gunner mode doesn't even have a first person mechanic. :x

1st person ball turrets just don't sound fun and also have been improved upon in the thousand years in between WW2 and whenever Elite takes place. If I let a friendly random shoot the fancy turrets I bought it want them to usee all of them. They're meant to defend my ship and I want every available resource working in unison.

First person doesn't mean that you can control just 1 turret at the same time.

 

[Jenner]

Settle down, people. Harassment and badgering = not cool. Such posts will be removed.
Stay civil and take personal arguments to PM, put each other on 'ignore', or move along. Thanks.

 

[JRok]

So does this mean multiplayer turrets are 360 deg. turrets?... sorry didn't feel like reading through 79 pages.

getting up to take a dump breaks my immersion. we should work on that, too

Nah... not mine... all my ships have space-potties.

 

[Goose4291]

So does this mean multiplayer turrets are 360 deg. turrets?... sorry didn't feel like reading through 79 pages.


Nah... not mine... all my ships have space-potties.

Turrets still have arcs of fire. However missiles now have 360 lockon and fire capabilities.

 

[Xargo]

So does this mean multiplayer turrets are 360 deg. turrets?... sorry didn't feel like reading through 79 pages.

The debate has more to do with if gunner should have a 360 deg field of view that is offset away from the ship so it's possible to poke around corners and such. That's how it was implemented in livestream.

 

[DooWopDuodenum]

so it's possible to poke around corners and such

like, I'm not trying to be mean or anything but what corners are y'all talking about?

 

[Xargo]

like, I'm not trying to be mean or anything but what corners are y'all talking about?

Asteroids, other ships, landscape, buildings, stations and so forth. CZ isn't the only place where you can fight.

I admit aside from silent running ship hiding behind an asteroid, those other occlusion scenarios are pretty marginal. However that silent running case alone is enough for me to strongly oppose the 3rd person gunner cam.

 

[Trash Gordon]

Settle down, people. Harassment and badgering = not cool. Such posts will be removed.
Stay civil and take personal arguments to PM, put each other on 'ignore', or move along. Thanks.

Hmmm can we tone down this horrible thread title? its starting of the discussion on the wrong foot already.

 

[BurnyBurns]

Yep its just an example theres a lot more and similar qotes to find, now Frontier added 3rd person cameras so far without huds and the ability for combat.

We have qutes from devs on the topic, now its on you to show quotes supporting 3rd person as we do not have any indication if their standpoint has changed, how about you show us dev posts that support your viewpoint?

Are you for real? How about just looking at what they do: Introduce a 3rd person camera for the limited gunner role and a HUD-less external beauty-shot camera with controls to replace the travesty that is the current debug camera.

It's quiet obvious they suffer from less overattachment to the game's status quo than quiet a lot people in here, while still preserving the pilot cockpit experience:

[video=youtube_share;lEeVParEpeg]https://youtu.be/lEeVParEpeg[/video]

No further proof required.

 

[Jason S]

If it was just as easy to do starwars type turrets instead (which I guess is what many of you want?), then they may have done, but the ships were not designed with them on...

 

[BurnyBurns]

Asteroids, other ships, landscape, buildings, stations and so forth. CZ isn't the only place where you can fight.

I admit aside from silent running ship hiding behind an asteroid, those other occlusion scenarios are pretty marginal. However that silent running case alone is enough for me to strongly oppose the 3rd person gunner cam.

More of that zero sum horse poo, please! Elite hasn't had its fill after the ship transfers.

The gunner is a bloody player. If somebody goes to the length of gimping their DPS for gimbals AND bringing a second player to control them, rather than just showing up with two murder boats, they bloody damn well deserve to shoot the gimbals by sight and not be artificially bend over and taken from behind as punishment for their efforts. That's the whole point of human controlled gimbals: you don't give a damn about magical anti tracking fairy dust, but can fire on sight. With competent non-3rd person cam solution, that would be the very same scenario. But having WW2 style half a dozen or more people huddled in each gimbal doesn't seem to be realistic with Elite's network limits.

Edit: Not to mention that the ship design doesn't have human manned hardpoints.

 

[Xargo]

If somebody goes to the length of gimping their DPS for gimbals AND bringing a second player to control them, rather than just showing up with two murder boats, they bloody damn well deserve to shoot the gimbals by sight and not be artificially bend over and taken from behind as punishment for their efforts. That's the whole point of human controlled gimbals: you don't give a damn about magical anti tracking fairy dust, but can fire on sight. With competent non-3rd person cam solution, that would be the very same scenario.

See here's the problem. If you use DPS/CPS(Credits per second) or any that kinda metrics to figure out if a given implementation of some game mechanics is good or not, you'll end up with a simplified game. As I said previously that's what killed Evolve and I'd rather not see that happen to ED. New content should bring something new to the game rather than just augment the grinding speed of the current mechanics. I will use multicrew even if it's implemented the way it's shown. Hell, I'll even buy a second account so I can always keep my gunner seat occupied to get me that extra pip and 2x credits. So yeah, if I only consider the grind advantage the proposed implementation is about to give, it's a great update. However some of us are actually interested in having fun with this game rather than try to make the grind as effective as possible. Will it make my sessions more fun if I have another computer idle running another copy of ED to occupy my gunner seat in a fixed weapon combat build? No, but it will give me 2x rewards and an extra pip.

... and about that magical anti tracking fairy dust, yeah sure if the gimbals were controlled by the gunner. In the demo the gunner just painted the target and turret tracking did the rest. That should be affected by the chaff just like gimbals. If they make the hitbox the same size as with fixed, then it's fine if magical fairy dust doesn't work.

... also with the demoed implementation the gunner isn't shooting the turrets "on sight" but can see the battle from an offset viewpoint outside the ship without occlusions (see targets that are out of sight from the perspective of the ship). I don't think anyone argued here that gunner should be shooting the turrets blind...?

... anyway, I hope FD listens and implements mechanics that encourage people to use them because they are fun rather than some mechanics that are only used because they augment the grind (as would be the case for me if the gunner role was implemented the way it was shown). Also they are selling the updates with their concept artwork and now they are about to not deliver what was shown. That's bad for pre-purchases of future seasons.

 

[BurnyBurns]

See here's the problem. If you use DPS/CPS(Credits per second) or any that kinda metrics to figure out if a given implementation of some game mechanics is good or not, you'll end up with a simplified game. As I said previously that's what killed Evolve and I'd rather not see that happen to ED. New content should bring something new to the game rather than just augment the grinding speed of the current mechanics. I will use multicrew even if it's implemented the way it's shown. Hell, I'll even buy a second account so I can always keep my gunner seat occupied to get me that extra pip and 2x credits. So yeah, if I only consider the grind advantage the proposed implementation is about to give, it's a great update. However some of us are actually interested in having fun with this game rather than try to make the grind as effective as possible. Will it make my sessions more fun if I have another computer idle running another copy of ED to occupy my gunner seat in a fixed weapon combat build? No, but it will give me 2x rewards and an extra pip.

That DPS gimping was in the game from day one. If you're exploiting multicrew rather than having Coop multiplayer fun for which it was designed, that's on you and not an issue with the 'arcade 12yo kiddie cam' . But it's an interesting notion, because you essentially describe an exploit relevant for PvP. Only it completely ignores the 3rd person cam, unless you hope to be playing at two PCs at the same time rather than just using the additional pips for boosting of a conventionally equipped ship. Will be interesting to see what Frontier do to prevent it. My first idea would be not allow for a gunner role as long as there are no turrets on the ship. The potential credit 'exploit' of running in your ship with two accounts? There are effective credit making schemes in the game and they laugh at both bounty hunting and CZ. Whenever one is removed, another crops up. If you want to go to the trouble of running two accounts and transferring credits by means of the terribly elegant drop-cargo-and-limpet up solution, hf and gl! Personally couldn't justify the additional time required, although with Elite running on both my Laptop and PC, both KVM-switched I'd be well set up for the scheme. I'll rather play multicrew cooperatively and look for more effective schemes when all I want is grind credits.

... and about that magical anti tracking fairy dust, yeah sure if the gimbals were controlled by the gunner. In the demo the gunner just painted the target and turret tracking did the rest. That should be affected by the chaff just like gimbals. If they make the hitbox the same size as with fixed, then it's fine if magical fairy dust doesn't work.

It should, just as the gunner should be able to unlock targets and manually aim, still giving them the advantage of full turret control based on skill.

But that's what the Beta is for and not an inherent issue with the 'kiddie arcade cam' or rather whether the gunner controls all the turrets from 3rd or 1st person view.