Gunner = Arcade Action Cam for the 12 yr olds?

[Ripbudd]

Multicrew for combat only... yeah well, blaze your own trail as long as it's combat focused.

Honestly i hope star citizen ruins ED because all i ever wanted from a space game is to be potato farmer on planet where space ships come to buy food for their supply on voyages and ocasional mining and ammo manufacture for my company. None of which we get in ED. Yeah i'd rather have some small shack on planet and play farmville and sometimes visit orbital station to buy supplies and sell supplies.
This is blaze my own trail. I love space games but i also love potatoes.

I'm a miner farmer and engineer at heart, can't change what I am, but i can change what i play. I love space and pioneering. I have a dream of colonizing new planet in real life some day.

 

[Xargo]

If you're exploiting multicrew rather than having Coop multiplayer fun for which it was designed, that's on you and not an issue with the 'arcade 12yo kiddie cam' . But it's an interesting notion, because you essentially describe an exploit relevant for PvP. Only it completely ignores the 3rd person cam, unless you hope to be playing at two PCs at the same time rather than just using the additional pips for boosting of a conventionally equipped ship. Will be interesting to see what Frontier do to prevent it. My first idea would be not allow for a gunner role as long as there are no turrets on the ship.

It is an interesting notion, I agree. The thing is that like I said in my first post the multicrew was the update I looked forward to most. I have a group of friends with whom I'd like to play multicrew with and I really really hoped FD made the multicrew interesting enough for that group to start playing ED and have a good time. Those guys bought the season one but didn't like what they saw and I'm the only one from that group that stayed with the game mainly because I saw potential (multicrew being the single most interesting thing for me). Now I'm sad to say that what remains of that enthusiasm is to use the mechanics to augment the grind so I can spend more time doing other things I enjoy in the game.

So yeah, it is indeed an interesting notion how the most anticipated feature of the game (for me) can be botched so badly (for me). I understand this is all very subjective but such is life. 'arcade 12yo kiddie cam' (not my words) is the reason why I lost the interest in the gunner role so now the only use for that role (for me) is to exploit it. I know I'll enjoy the SLF role though so it's not all dark and gloomy. It's just that I hoped the multicrew update would bring something that would allow a group of pilots to act as a team together to control the ship in a way that's not possible with the current mechanics (using roles such as engineer, weapons officer, comms officer and such) and I'm sad to see that's probably not going to happen so the only thing I can do is to ask FD to change the course and implement that instead of what they showed us. Just my totally subjective opinion about the matter...

btw. if gunner role requires turrets, I'll just fit one to one of my Vette C1 hardpoints, done. Not happy about all this but I hope it's not too late for FD to change course.

That should, just as the gunner should be able to unlock targets and manually aim, still giving them the advantage of full turret control based on skill.

But that's what the Beta is for and not an inherent issue with the 'kiddie arcade cam' or rather whether the gunner controls all the turrets from 3rd or 1st person view.

No argument here. o7 (Though can't see why all this wouldn't hold true if the gunner viewpoint was from the center of the ship and the view shown inside the cockpit in a cool looking HUD (that other crewmates could also see if they turned their head that way, as shown in the concept art).)

 

[Xargo]

If you want to go to the trouble of running two accounts and transferring credits by means of the terribly elegant drop-cargo-and-limpet up solution, hf and gl!

Here's the thing. If this multicrew implementation we were shown goes through, you don't need to elegantly drop-cargo-and-limpet up. You can just have the second account sit there in your ship. I was thinking about buying another account anyway for those cycles when I go well over 10k merits to help my power so I could in that case use the second account to grind the amount of merits that are about to go over 10k (since everything over 10k is pretty much wasted as far a the personal economy of the CMDR is considered). With this multicrew reward system I don't have to even think about grinding the second account to access the conda needed to haul forts. I can just have the second account sit in the ship of my primary account. Thanks to telepresence I can do that straight away the first thing when I spawn to the game in the freebie sidey. Easy money for FD though. I hope they spend it to actually improve the game in the future.

 

[CmdrChorusLindarr]

Are you for real? How about just looking at what they do: Introduce a 3rd person camera for the limited gunner role and a HUD-less external beauty-shot camera with controls to replace the travesty that is the current debug camera.

It's quiet obvious they suffer from less overattachment to the game's status quo than quiet a lot people in here, while still preserving the pilot cockpit experience:

https://youtu.be/lEeVParEpeg

No further proof required.

Can't rep you enough BurnyBurns. I've already finished my quota of rep for you about 3 x over.

 

[Bobbydylan]

I'd have preferred 2 gunner cupola's to be added to ships. One Dorsal, one Ventral. Gimbaled to compensate for movement of the ship. Allow hot-swapping for the gunner to moved from one to the other, basically like the Landship tank in BF1.

But, like I said, Multi-Pew isn't something that interests me. I Foresee it being much less useful and fun than winging up, with the same network difficulty. Sadly, I see this being one of the CQC and PP updates.

Which, I suppose, aint bad. Last season we had 2 duds. This season only 1 so far. Improvements.

 

[BurnyBurns]

Here's the thing. If this multicrew implementation we were shown goes through, you don't need to elegantly drop-cargo-and-limpet up. You can just have the second account sit there in your ship. I was thinking about buying another account anyway for those cycles when I go well over 10k merits to help my power so I could in that case use the second account to grind the amount of merits that are about to go over 10k (since everything over 10k is pretty much wasted as far a the personal economy of the CMDR is considered). With this multicrew reward system I don't have to even think about grinding the second account to access the conda needed to haul forts. I can just have the second account sit in the ship of my primary account. Thanks to telepresence I can do that straight away the first thing when I spawn to the game in the freebie sidey. Easy money for FD though. I hope they spend it to actually improve the game in the future.

Who cares? If you have the time to play two accounts in power play, by all means do it. If Frontier realizes it's an issue, it's on them to prevent the exploit.

The duplication of bounties (which Wings is now said to also receive... finally!) serves foremost one purpose: Not discouraging cooperative multiplayer with gimped rewards, because dividing payouts by half or more cannot make up for you quicker dispatching targets together. You're limited by spawn rate.

Non of this has anything to do with the topic: 3rd person vs. first person gunner camera.

 

[Jex =TE=]

He added the quote now. Its about the actual flying, and why there is no external cam. Its why the new camera suiteis intentionally borked for combat: you are supposed to do that in 1st person. But it doesnt relate to turret cam, nor to vanity cam. It was strictly about how 1v1 combat should be, and the advantages 3rd person would offer at the cost of immersion.

Absolute poppycock. It's quoted, there's no getting around it no matter how much you hate that it was said or how much you want to make the game third person and make excuses for it.

If people here want to try and defend FDev over this then it shows that you're not interested in the game, you're only interested in what YOU want because that's the ONLY time crap excuses like the above are made - to support not the development of the game but the want of certain players.

- - - Updated - - -

He was talking about piloting the ship in combat. Which still applies. He is not talking about things like turret cam or vanity cam.

Deal with that as you must, but please dont try to gather support where none is to be had. Just say you disagree with FD, which is totally fine.

No he isn't and clearly not. How you can think he's saying anything else just proves you are a hack trying to destroy the game and ruin it. Did Chris Roberts send you over here?

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Actually not, it shows that FDEV drifted away from the original pitched idea.


They should just come clear with it, instead of hiding behind a wall of silence.

""We changed our mind, it's now this direction, now bug-off"" *(I would prefer that kind of talk as then we would know the direction of the game)

* Imaginary qoute

I think it's pretty clear by now that FD wil lsay anything to get people to hand over their cash. Judging by how much they've just made up and tacked on I can see why they do it now. They don't know what next seasons content is going to be so - just say anything! LOL

 

[Jex =TE=]

This type of garbage elitist attitude is exactly why I have a very hard time taking seriously what any of the self professed "old-farts" say about game difficulty and immersion.
Then again, old people have been complainging about youngsters in antique greece in the same lines, so, I guess that some things never change.

Old games where mostly crap compared to what we get now. Some where difficult sure, but a lot of it was pattern learning and timings. What old games have that new ones
don't : massive nostalgia generation. I think that is part of the drive to keep ED in a retro-futuristic setting, instead of an actual sci-fi setting.

Am I nostalgic of Civ I ? Sure. Is CiV VI a better game than Civ I ? Hell yeah.

It's virtually the same game LOL. Also, young people aren't an issue here like Snowy seems to think. There's just as many dumb old people too. Anyway here thinks people get wiser as they get older are fooling themselves that only happens for critical thinker so that's about 15% of you out there.

As for old games being worse that simply isn't true either. Half life were amazing games. Ghost recon was incredible. Games today are way too easy with wall hacks, dots above heads, flashy things telling you what to click on or interact with and icons all over the place. Falcon 4 is still the best combat flight sim out today. Raven shield and rainbow 6 were also great. Graphics have got better, gameplay seems to be going downhill.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

How about a compromise and do a 2nd person view?

 

[JW667]

Honestly i hope star citizen ruins ED because all i ever wanted from a space game is to be potato farmer on planet where space ships come to buy food for their supply on voyages and ocasional mining and ammo manufacture for my company.

Why are you on this forum then?

 

[StiTch]

It's just for ease of use. The camera isn't a physical thing that flies around behind your ship.

How else are you supposed to aim multiple turrets?

Isn't this the kind of question an experienced dev team answers?

Strike my neighbour's cat with lightning if I am wrong, but devs aren't just here to piece together concepts so obvious that a two year old could compose them. They should be able to propose and implement solutions to obstacles thinking out the box where needed.

For this reason I wish the forum would give LESS input. Devs typically tend to come up with good ideas that get ruined by players putting forward opinion as irrefutable fact.

Fact of the matter is, the turret cam is awful. Leaving "realism" well out the damn window, it just doesn't feel enjoyable. It breaks "immershun" in the true sense of the word-getting into the game. It's hard to get your teeth stuck into a carnage spree with the viewpoint of some magical floating eye of Sauron.

 

[Xargo]

Who cares? If you have the time to play two accounts in power play, by all means do it.

People who are opposing what I do in game obviously. There has been numerous arguments in this thread stating to not use gunner cam if you don't like it. As I said earlier, that's not possible unless FD makes a separate universe for gunner cam users as players can use the resources gathered from some action to affect something else in the game. You see that's the beauty of the game, things are connected. So if you add some new way to grind, you'll indirectly affect the rest of the game too. That might not matter to you but it sure matters to anyone who plays BGS (BGS affects PP if you didn't know).

The duplication of bounties (which Wings is now said to also receive... finally!) serves foremost one purpose: Not discouraging cooperative multiplayer with gimped rewards, because dividing payouts by half or more cannot make up for you quicker dispatching targets together. You're limited by spawn rate.

Non of this has anything to do with the topic: 3rd person vs. first person gunner camera.

But it does, my point was that the implementation shown in the livestream results in more efficient grind and thus people who are looking for a quick stack of credits are likely to support the implementation shown in the livestream regardless if it's consistent with the rest of the game. Then there are others who'd like more complicated mechanics even if it meant less credits per hour of gameplay. Personally I'd take more interesting gameplay anytime over a stack of credits and that's what this thread is really about. Playing should be fun by itself even if it didn't reward you with credits. People wing to play BGS all the time btw. Credits are not the only rewards this game has to offer.

 

[Bobbydylan]

Isn't this the kind of question an experienced dev team answers?

Strike my neighbour's cat with lightning if I am wrong, but devs aren't just here to piece together concepts so obvious that a two year old could compose them. They should be able to propose and implement solutions to obstacles thinking out the box where needed.

For this reason I wish the forum would give LESS input. Devs typically tend to come up with good ideas that get ruined by players putting forward opinion as irrefutable fact.

Fact of the matter is, the turret cam is awful. Leaving "realism" well out the damn window, it just doesn't feel enjoyable. It breaks "immershun" in the true sense of the word-getting into the game. It's hard to get your teeth stuck into a carnage spree with the viewpoint of some magical floating eye of Sauron.

While I agree with you in general, I think if the devs consulted us on CQC and PowerPlay those 2 systems wouldn't be as.... desolate, as they are now. Or at lest, they'd be excluded in favour of something better. Like those Planet scanning concepts.

 

[Phoenix_Dfire]

I've been doing a little research into this with the old games that have this kind of approach and hopefully, some people will find it helpful.

1. X-Wing Alliance - This has the first person turret view. You can switch between the turret and the pilot station on some ships. It didn't have multiplayer ships but you could set your droid to pilot, while you gun. Experience : Awful, the field of view was restrictive, the controls felt clunky and difficult to hit when the ship was evading. Ended up setting the turret to auto and just flew the ship from the cockpit.
2. Freelancer - For best results, this game is played in 3rd person with a mouse. Was not immersed in the experience and it felt like an on rail's shooter.
3. I-War II - This allowed you to go to gunnery view, showing an external view, while locked onto you present target. This was invaluable because the ships were bigger (i.e. x-wing fighter 14m long vs Dreadnought Corvette 200 m long and you needed the situational awareness to survive. It didn't loose the 'Sim' feel because the guns tracked proper and could only find fire if the ship was in the appropriate arc.

I think the only issue I'm going to have with the gunnery view is the 'Feel'. If it turns Elite into a Freelancer like experience, then I'll be missing out and if I see a player-crewed ship, I'll be over to Solo faster than Princess Leia says 'Where's Han?'

It it's more of an I-War II 'Feel', who want's a gunner?

 

[Jex =TE=]

lol one days price and its not even over.

You obviously do not understand anything to do with the stock exchange. Here is a trend

You think brokers are looking at this thread?

Spoiler

View attachment 114883

Over 100% increase in trading price since they went public.

Again, they dont need your money.

And the trend is going DOWN and quite obviously too. Who's money don't they need - pretty sure without sales it won't be long before they're not on ths stock market any longer.

 

[Bobbydylan]

I've been doing a little research into this with the old games that have this kind of approach and hopefully, some people will find it helpful.

1. X-Wing Alliance - This has the first person turret view. You can switch between the turret and the pilot station on some ships. It didn't have multiplayer ships but you could set your droid to pilot, while you gun. Experience : Awful, the field of view was restrictive, the controls felt clunky and difficult to hit when the ship was evading. Ended up setting the turret to auto and just flew the ship from the cockpit.
2. Freelancer - For best results, this game is played in 3rd person with a mouse. Was not immersed in the experience and it felt like an on rail's shooter.
3. I-War II - This allowed you to go to gunnery view, showing an external view, while locked onto you present target. This was invaluable because the ships were bigger (i.e. x-wing fighter 14m long vs Dreadnought Corvette 200 m long and you needed the situational awareness to survive. It didn't loose the 'Sim' feel because the guns tracked proper and could only find fire if the ship was in the appropriate arc.

I think the only issue I'm going to have with the gunnery view is the 'Feel'. If it turns Elite into a Freelancer like experience, then I'll be missing out and if I see a player-crewed ship, I'll be over to Solo faster than Princess Leia says 'Where's Han?'

It it's more of an I-War II 'Feel', who want's a gunner?

The I-War games were a real high point for Space Sims, IMHO. Personally I preferred the 1st one.

 

[Whitehair]

And the trend is going DOWN and quite obviously too. Who's money don't they need - pretty sure without sales it won't be long before they're not on ths stock market any longer.

Its a stock market. Duh.

Fluctuations occur daily/hourly. Ever seen ONE STOCK EVER that only went up?

 

[Jex =TE=]

Already replied to that quote.

"We absolutely think the cockpit is necessary, we are looking at some situations and methods for external views, but the primary interface is the cockpit. It is the environment in which you exist as much as the method by which you control the game.

Michael"

"primary interface is the cockpit"

I stated that yes even with the addition to a probe or drone view to the ship, that all primary interface is internal to the cockpit. The pilot is not able to go into the external or drone view for combat. However his virtual buddies can. All primary functions and flying are still being done inside the ship.

He also said.

"we are looking at some situations and methods for external views"

So it looks like they found a situation and a method for external views hasnt he?

Conveniently missed off this...

3rd person view will be implemented at some point using drones that keep them firmly in the fiction of the universe and can't be used to give an alternative point of view for flying as that isn't how we want player's to experience the game. We want an in-cockpit experience for flying but 3rd person drones will allow you to inspect your ship or to do beauty shots etc.

The tone of the dev comments are clearly and obviously against 3rd person but that doesn't help you're side of the argument which is why you have to try and pick holes, desperately trying to find something to cling on to.

- - - Updated - - -

Maybe it should be could a feature be turned into something we all enjoy instead.

Maybe they shouldn't have bothered with something nobody is going to be using in a month and I don't know, used the dev time for something else like EXPLORATION?

 

[CylonSurfer]

Conveniently missed off this...



The tone of the dev comments are clearly and obviously against 3rd person but that doesn't help you're side of the argument which is why you have to try and pick holes, desperately trying to find something to cling on to.

- - - Updated - - -



Maybe they shouldn't have bothered with something nobody is going to be using in a month and I don't know, used the dev time for something else like EXPLORATION?

I would have to agree - comments such as those were why I purchased this game. The community, at the time was very behind this stance as well on a whole.

 

[Goose4291]

I've been doing a little research into this with the old games that have this kind of approach and hopefully, some people will find it helpful.

1. X-Wing Alliance - This has the first person turret view. You can switch between the turret and the pilot station on some ships. It didn't have multiplayer ships but you could set your droid to pilot, while you gun. Experience : Awful, the field of view was restrictive, the controls felt clunky and difficult to hit when the ship was evading. Ended up setting the turret to auto and just flew the ship from the cockpit.
2. Freelancer - For best results, this game is played in 3rd person with a mouse. Was not immersed in the experience and it felt like an on rail's shooter.
3. I-War II - This allowed you to go to gunnery view, showing an external view, while locked onto you present target. This was invaluable because the ships were bigger (i.e. x-wing fighter 14m long vs Dreadnought Corvette 200 m long and you needed the situational awareness to survive. It didn't loose the 'Sim' feel because the guns tracked proper and could only find fire if the ship was in the appropriate arc.

I think the only issue I'm going to have with the gunnery view is the 'Feel'. If it turns Elite into a Freelancer like experience, then I'll be missing out and if I see a player-crewed ship, I'll be over to Solo faster than Princess Leia says 'Where's Han?'

It it's more of an I-War II 'Feel', who want's a gunner?

Col, you might want to check Galaxies (as you can try the emus for free now) as well. The turrets and multicrew as a whole worked really well.