After looking at the new beta, I have a few comments. It is time for serious discussion AND the DEVS to listen to us.

[CMDR-AD]

I personally do not feel bored with Elite/Horizons. Tonight I have a couple of things planned for my next play:

1. Contributing to a couple of minor factions I am supporting in a few systems.
2. Investigating a minor faction that recently moved into my "home" system and is growing fast.
2a. Figure out where they are originally from.
2b. Work out how I can undermine them in the best way, to keep my preferred faction on top.

Now I grant, maybe for some players these are not really compelling types of play I'm doing. But they are somewhat interesting to me, enough that I am coming back to it each time I play. Bought/outfitted some ships to help in the job, here and there. And yes the activities I will complete in this play, most likely I have done before in my 1200 hours of play. But situationally, I am feeling reasonably engaged with the game world.

That said, I do completely agree that some elements could offer far greater depth. I personally think things like the superpower ranking, rather than all being just another completionist track to 100%, could offer meaningful blowback for choices in who a CMDR supports. A military auxiliary career path, with some perks, where a participating CMDR needs to choose between commitment to one side OR the other at any span of time. These kinds of choices are part of what drives a meaningful personal experience in the gameplay. It's part of why I am even interested in the minor factions above, choices I have made over time and choose to stick with (even though there is zero blowback in-game, if I change my mind).

There are other places I think of that could also offer this kind of meaningful division to help drive CMDR connections with their chosen path. Things like piracy/crime factions and alliances. Gaining AND keeping a reputation as a bad guy, and having that impact what and where a CMDR can do in different systems. Having some serious effort go into turning back that reputation, if a CMDR decides to leave it all behind. Sure you can back out of that old lifestyle, but old enemies do not forget overnight. Maybe they come back to haunt later, weeks or months later.

But on the larger part, I do not think that the main design goal for Elite can easily support this type of personal narrative play focus. Most of the major rank paths are generally non-committal and are not binary (supporting A doesn't annoy B), and function as independent pathways to a 100% status and perhaps some gated content access. This kind of design is more about reinforcing the gameplay activity cycle, than encouraging players to dig in deep with meaningful character and career choices, with branching paths that shape the way the galaxy responds to the CMDR in different places and times. With the present game design, a player's actions grow their play options, rather than forming walls.

Based on a few friends who play Elite (and also true for other games, too), it seriously looks like most of them vastly prefer the play cycles leading to 100% rank completion, more than wanting a "choice driven narrative" type experience. They really don't want consequences for choices they make, which might limit them doing something else whenever they want. And that is fine for them, they seem to be having fun with it.

 

[sgurr]

No, no it most certainly does not. I have tons of ideas on how Frontier could improve exploration, most of which is not too outlandish, and even a lot of which the mechanics already exist in the game used for other things! Not to mention the hundreds of threads on these forums (and other forums) with huge amounts of ideas for exploration.

The problem isn’t a lack of ideas, the problem is a lack of effort by Frontier. Even some acknowledgement that Frontier realizes the issue and are scheduling some dev time and a point update or two to improve the situation would go a long way. Instead we get silence, and in fact a few devs on the livestreams seem to feel like they think exploration is in a good place currently. Which, pretty much anyone who explores in Elite can tell you, is patently incorrect.

It's that disconnect between the devs and the players which is fostering the majority of negativity that continually pervades these and other forums.

Repped. In fact this bears repeating.

in fact a few devs on the livestreams seem to feel like they think exploration is in a good place currently. Which, pretty much anyone who explores in Elite can tell you, is patently incorrect.

It's that disconnect between the devs and the players which is fostering the majority of negativity that continually pervades these and other forums.

My heart sank the day Michael Brookes said that the exploration mechanics/gameplay were solid. They're solid in the sense that they work, but they're the most basic, placeholder implementation they could have done and an embarassment compared to other game mechanics and the BGS.

It's fun to be labeled fanboi after having dropped the game being disappointing by the state of exploration.

We've never spoken but I miss your posting Ziggy, always entertaining o7

FDev, add some depth to exploration so Ziggy comes back. Please.

(caveat, and so we're clear mechanics and gameplay do not equal content. Alien ruins is content, having to find them by exploiting graphical quirks and eyeballing a whole planet is very, very poor gameplay/mechanics.)

 

[SkipRat]

Well, I will just respond as I always do.

You have been playing for three years, let us say an average of eight hours a week so,

8 * 52 * 3 = 1248 hours (and knowing my own play time, that is probably a low estimate, no?)

so, lets say you paid £100 so far for the game an update and some store bits this means you have had 1248 hours of fun for £100 or

100.00 / 1248 = 0.08(and a bit) or just over 8 pence per hour.

Value for money? I reckon so. Perhaps just accept you affair with ED is over but remember you had a great ride and it cost you peanuts

Fly safe CMDR (or not)

W.T.H.

Being disgruntled with something has got the square-root of naff all to do with money over time, as such, value for money as you put it... What a stupid argument...

What FD suggested when they sold us the game in kick starter and when it first started was the equivalent of a top of the range Bugatti Veyron and paying for one... But what turns up at your door is a clapped out mini that is painted up like a Veyron.

I fully understand that not every feature can be implemented due to certain restrictions, but in no way can FDev claim that on every aspect of the game. It is clear that FDev bottled from making a refreshing mature game for once aimed at gamers, to something resembling a fractured, shallow, arcady styled whatever that hell this game is aimed at the supposed instant gratification generation/casual gamer.
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No, no it most certainly does not. I have tons of ideas on how Frontier could improve exploration, most of which is not too outlandish, and even a lot of which the mechanics already exist in the game used for other things! Not to mention the hundreds of threads on these forums (and other forums) with huge amounts of ideas for exploration.

The problem isn’t a lack of ideas, the problem is a lack of effort by Frontier. Even some acknowledgement that Frontier realizes the issue and are scheduling some dev time and a point update or two to improve the situation would go a long way. Instead we get silence, and in fact a few devs on the livestreams seem to feel like they think exploration is in a good place currently. Which, pretty much anyone who explores in Elite can tell you, is patently incorrect.

It's that disconnect between the devs and the players which is fostering the majority of negativity that continually pervades these and other forums.

This is completely untrue... It is not a lack of effort, it is a change of philosophy they have taken per a private conversation with someone I shall not name.

FDev have taken the approach of everyone should be able to do what they want when they want. Which means no proper C&P and this will prevent the players who massacre other players from having access to the best trade routes or hamper the way they want to play the game in anyway, so the rest of us that want a more structured, lore filled galaxy with depth and wonders will never get it, because they seem to think we can use our imaginations in solo to play however we want, despite the game....

FDev have screwed this game and they keep selling it like it will change, but never will if people keep falling for the same old spin and keep buying the game.

 

[VR Golgot]

This is completely untrue... It is not a lack of effort, it is a change of philosophy they have taken per a private conversation with someone I shall not name.

FDev have taken the approach of everyone should be able to do what they want when they want. Which means no proper C&P and this will prevent the players who massacre other players from having access to the best trade routes or hamper the way they want to play the game in anyway, so the rest of us that want a more structured, lore filled galaxy with depth and wonders will never get it, because they seem to think we can use our imaginations in solo to play however we want, despite the game....

Woah now, you can't just drop bombs like that without giving us a bit more

• This person you spoke to is an FDev employee yes?
• Give us a hint at role, you can do that. Are they more code end, more management, more community?
• What specifically did they say?
• If you can't dig that up, or recall exactly, how much is their information and how much is your extrapolation?

IE did they really say 'no structured, lore filled galaxy with depth and wonders'? Or is that you're conclusion because they said (it seems) that any C&P system will still allow for ganking in high sec zones? Or something? (Because that's how it rolls out from your text above)

I get the feeling some sourness you feel towards the game and recent delivery (no worries there, there are definitely issues, and each to their own on what they want the game to be) may have coloured your interpretation of your source here.

 

[dekot]

I read somewhere that res sites and cz zones were placeholder content. Is this true?

As it is now, while the actual flying and combat is fun, it's kind of ridiculous that these places just throw infinite enemies at you for the sole purpose of farming.

 

[SkipRat]

Woah there sweetheart, you can't just drop bombs like that without giving us a bit more...

• This person you spoke to is an FDev employee yes?
• Give us a hint at role, you can do that. Are they more code end, more management, more community?
• What specifically did they say?
• If you can't dig that up, or recall exactly, how much is their information and how much is your extrapolation
  
  IE did they really say 'no structured, lore filled galaxy with depth and wonders'? Or is that you're conclusion because they said (it seems) that any C&P system will still allow for ganking in high sec zones? Or something? (Because that's how it rolls out from your text above)
  
  I get the feeling some sourness you feel towards the game and recent delivery (no worries there, there are definitely issues, and each to their own on what they want the game to be) may have coloured your interpretation of your source here.

• 
  
  Sorry, not giving a hint or anything.
  
  They said more or less what I said, they said. It was several months ago and forget asking for specifics.
  
  Do what you want when you want, and proper C&P hinders that. They really want you to be able do all the careers paths at any time your want. So trading one minute, pirate the next, then bounty hunter in all the space of 15 mins... To many this is why the game feel so fractured and shallow, including me.
  
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  I read somewhere that res sites and cz zones were placeholder content. Is this true?
  
  As it is now, while the actual flying and combat is fun, it's kind of ridiculous that these places just throw infinite enemies at you for the sole purpose of farming.

  
  No way of knowing if it is place holder any more, from what I have heard they more or less abandoned the DDF which had some truly brilliant ideas in it.
  
  I also asked this person if they was going to make CZ's more structured rather than randomly sqawning kills.... Nope, not gonna happen.

 

[VR Golgot]

Sorry, not giving a hint or anything.

They said more or less what I said, they said. It was several months ago and forget asking for specifics.

Do what you want when you want, and proper C&P hinders that. They really want you to be able do all the careers paths at any time your want. So trading one minute, pirate the next, then bounty hunter in all the space of 15 mins... To many this is why the game feel so fractured and shallow, including me.

Ok thanks, I think that clarifies it more. So the impossiblity of a deep lore world is your interpretation of the implications, not theirs?

To be honest I'm not sure how you arrive at that conclusion. Is it because you think combat/gank would have ultimate place in an 'all roles are valid' scenario and would inhibit your preferred gameplay styles? Is it because you feel the focus shouldn't be on roles that don't promote the lore / exploration / deep story element sides? Is it because you think a game focusing on so many roles can't be deep? I'm confused.

EDIT: I'm not sure what's so very bad about an 'all roles should be valid' scenario. Of course it implies more skimping on each in the meantime, but given time there's no ultimate reason why all can't be filled out, and the galaxy they exist in.

 

[SkipRat]

Ok thanks, I think that clarifies it more. So the impossiblity of a deep lore world is your interpretation of the implications, not theirs?

To be honest I'm not sure how you arrive at that conclusion. Is it because you think combat/gank would have ultimate place in an 'all roles are valid' scenario and would inhibit your preferred gameplay styles? Is it because you feel the focus shouldn't be on roles that don't promote the lore / exploration / deep story element sides? Is it because you think a game focusing on so many roles can't be deep? I'm confused.

Cant have deep lore... Because to have that requires consequences and consequences create restrictions, which prevent players from doing what they want when they want.

They have literally made this a sandbox game, do what you when you want.

I just want the game I was sold at the very beginning, the one where it was the Elite Universe, not this shallow imitation. The one where David Braben stood on stage and stated in front of the audience he wanted a game where players actions have real consequences.

 

[Ddraig]

and that is all you have to say? [squeeeee]

What else to say?
Is not a fallacy.

I do not have to abide to any opinion but mine. I am not gonna get behind your bored numbskulls that take this game as the only one there is.
Dont like it, dont play it.

You have too much time in your hands. Do something else, try to act like a human.

 

[Enderby]

What else to say?
Is not a fallacy.

I do not have to abide to any opinion but mine. I am not gonna get behind your bored numbskulls that take this game as the only one there is.
Dont like it, dont play it.

You have too much time in your hands. Do something else, try to act like a human.

This made me laugh!

 

[SkipRat]

What else to say?
Is not a fallacy.

I do not have to abide to any opinion but mine. I am not gonna get behind your bored numbskulls that take this game as the only one there is.
Dont like it, dont play it.

You have too much time in your hands. Do something else, try to act like a human.

Sorry, but a lot people paid a lot of money into this game to get it started and support it being told one thing, then FDev go and do another. I expect this sort of behaviour from scum like EA, not a small independent company in Cambridgeshire...

It is wrong, not just from a computer game development company, but from any company and it should never be acceptable and people have the right to say what they want about it. In the same way you have the same right to listen to it or not.

 

[VR Golgot]

Cant have deep lore... Because to have that requires consequences and consequences create restrictions, which prevent players from doing what they want when they want.

They have literally made this a sandbox game, do what you when you want.

Ok, I'm afraid I still don't see how these things are mutually exclusive. If the 'do what you want when you want' pertained primarily to roles (and wasn't a mantra to rule them all), then accessible roles and deep lore could still go hand in hand. It seems really unlikely that they're aiming to design a game with no limits on player agency and where actions have no consequences.

On the sandbox aspects of that though, they've repeatedly described the game as a sandbox or open world from pre-launch, I'm not sure that aspect should really come as a surprise. IE for example: Braben, May 12th 2014:

The success of the Elite series has always been based on the freedom that players are given. It's all about individual choice in an open world - you don't select "pirate" or "bounty hunter" or "trader" from a list, you simply do what you want and events will unfold accordingly.

I could find you a ton more quotes like that from that era.

---

PS on this reply to someone else:

No way of knowing if it is place holder any more, from what I have heard they more or less abandoned the DDF which had some truly brilliant ideas in it.

FDev said recently that they still work to some of the DDF ideas, IE, in answer to the question 'Are those kickstarter plans still active and do you work on them?':

Yes, over a long term to many of the DDF discussions that were had.

 

[sgurr]

This is completely untrue... It is not a lack of effort, it is a change of philosophy they have taken per a private conversation with someone I shall not name.

FDev have taken the approach of everyone should be able to do what they want when they want. Which means no proper C&P and this will prevent the players who massacre other players from having access to the best trade routes or hamper the way they want to play the game in anyway, so the rest of us that want a more structured, lore filled galaxy with depth and wonders will never get it, because they seem to think we can use our imaginations in solo to play however we want, despite the game....

Cant have deep lore... Because to have that requires consequences and consequences create restrictions, which prevent players from doing what they want when they want.

They have literally made this a sandbox game, do what you when you want.

I just want the game I was sold at the very beginning, the one where it was the Elite Universe, not this shallow imitation. The one where David Braben stood on stage and stated in front of the audience he wanted a game where players actions have real consequences.

That's really, really sad to hear

And for anyone else reading this I've spoken to skiprat a fair bit in the past and I take him at his word.

 

[VR Golgot]

That's really, really sad to hear

And for anyone else reading this I've spoken to skiprat a fair bit in the past and I take him at his word.

Sure that's fine, he's definitely speaking in earnestness. But parsing out what the individual said and what Skip is extrapolating would be wise. I'm not convinced all of the above is necessarily 'canon' for what's going on inside FDev.

 

[sgurr]

Sure that's fine, he's definitely speaking in earnestness. But parsing out what the individual said and what Skip is extrapolating would be wise. I'm not convinced all of the above is necessarily 'canon' for what's going on inside FDev.

I do. The 'deep lore' is Skip's opinon, but the lack of consequences is what came from FDev and that in the light of :

It's all about individual choice in an open world - you don't select "pirate" or "bounty hunter" or "trader" from a list, you simply do what you want and events will unfold accordingly.

means that whilst events might unfold accordingly they won't ever unfold in a meaningful way because hey suicidewinder and you're clear to start again. That does remove the potential for depth and therefore the ongoing lore.

Yes they've said they're keeping the DDF in mind, but if they're parsing it through a no consequences lense then it changes the interpretation for, imo, the worse.

 

[Odan Brota]

IMO, season 3 needs to be about improving the base game in a significant way.

3.0 could be a massive update to planets, by giving more things to shoot down there besides skimmers, by giving land-based bounty hunting, etc. Let me land and mine up some rare rocks, let me land and explore various ruins and rock formations, taking detailed scans and selling for more profit.

3.1 could be a Combat update, where they overhaul the (awful) subsystem targeting mechanic and replace it with something decent, and improve AI in select zones to generate team missions. You know, big scores worth big credits that take multiple pilots to complete?

3.2 could be all about Trade, and improving it. Overhaul the BGS, fix the economy, and give us new mechanics to make A-B trading, Rares trading, and smuggling worthwhile again. And this could improve piracy as well! Give people a nice healthy bonus when they are multi-crewed and in open play, give them a reason to do Open play. Because right now, there isn't a reason for anyone besides PvPers to do anything in Open.

3.3 could be all about Mining, where they totally overhaul the mining mechanic. They could utilize multicrew to give bonuses and new jobs to people, to make mining a more multi-person affair. Maybe have a dedicated scanner operator to find the juicy materials? Maybe boost the value of materials mined by players by making them "pure" and therefore worth more on the markets?

3.4 could be about exploring. Implementing a super-highway to allow for quick transfer across the galaxy. Add anomalies, weird space stuff, crystalline entities, whatever you have to. Spice up the gameplay for explorers. Merge the g advanced disco scanner and detailed surface scanner to free up slots.

 

[Andovar]

Please move your 3.4 idea to the front of the line, and scrap 3.1.
yes... that's much better.

 

[VR Golgot]

I do. The 'deep lore' is Skip's opinon, but the lack of consequences is what came from FDev and that in the light of :



means that whilst events might unfold accordingly they won't ever unfold in a meaningful way because hey suicidewinder and you're clear to start again. That does remove the potential for depth and therefore the ongoing lore.

Yes they've said they're keeping the DDF in mind, but if they're parsing it through a no consequences lense then it changes the interpretation for, imo, the worse.

Cool, fair play, although I'm still not sure that the 'lack of consequences' bit isn't also Skip's interpretation rather than a possible internal aim.

Incidentally they've floated ways to address Suicidewinders previously etc. In lieu of firmer evidence I'd say most of this is extrapolation too far. Certainly interpreting 'role freedom' to = 'no meaningful galaxy change' the way you guys are doing.

 

[Zambrick]

OP has demonstrated an incapability of having a rational, equal exchange with his peers. From attempting to control the conversation outright by setting terms in the OP, to retaliating against genuine replies as though they were personal attacks, regardless of how supportive and non-confrontational those replies may be, to the tone of his overall speech.

OP calls his harsh tone "lack of political correctness". It is nothing more than lack of tact, and lack of respect for those who he has invited to the discussion. When people act that way, i.e. harshly and overly-confrontational or retaliatory, they are fooling themselves into thinking that they are garnering respect, but in fact it is an incredibly easy facade for the listener to see through, and results in more harm to the speaker's reputation than anything else.

Unfortunately, point that out to a person who behaves in such a way is usually met with resistance and retaliation. So it is what it is.

Or you could you know...just answer the damn question and not berate someone on your perceived slight. Perhaps if you had read the rest of the posts some of the previous people were saying the same incorrect or opinion based things as you had. Maybe he was tired of hearing for the 3rd time in the same thread.

But then again what do I know. I only read the thread and know for a fact that text and speech are 2 different things and do not translate together in a perfect fashion. So take offense where you will.

I hope you don't yell at the pizza delivery guy because you didn't like the textual tone of the receipt email was generated when you ordered it Online.

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Cool, fair play, although I'm still not sure that the 'lack of consequences' bit isn't also Skip's interpretation rather than a possible internal aim.

Incidentally they've floated ways to address Suicidewinders previously etc. In lieu of firmer evidence I'd say most of this is extrapolation too far. Certainly interpreting 'role freedom' to = 'no meaningful galaxy change' the way you guys are doing.

I know Sandro is still pushing for a Karma Based C&P system since the live stream at PAX east. At least he is still addressing it as something that is coming. I am not sure of your info source, but unless its one of the 3 main Devs, I would take it with a grain of salt.

 

[tafkabb]

This is going well.