MULTICREW: Adam Woods describing MC during the Horizons' launch stream.

It's amazing that alot of the same people on the forum create threads like this, digging up past discussions of planned features and using them as a basis for holding FDev to ransom for not delivering on their promises, whilst at the same time, those same posters will complain about why FDev is now so vague about their development plans...

I mean, we can't have it both ways, folks.

We either be mature enough to realise that sometimes things change in game development and accept that, allowing FDev the freedom to talk openly about their future plans for the game without fear of reprisal...

... or we continue to doggedly hang off their every remark and see every miniscule public mention of of an idea concerning ED as a signed-in-blood covenant of what they promise to deliver, and simply accept the fact that FDev will only tell us what's coming when they can be sure that it will very very unlikely to change prior to release.

Yeah, it's all the players fault for expecting FD to deliver what they say they will. You know, there's an old saying in software development. Under promise, over deliver. There's also another way to approach iterative development. In fact, it's the correct way to approach it. What you do is this. You keep the users in the loop. For example, if you realise you're not going to hit deadline x, or fully implement feature y, you give them the heads up. That way, you can avoid giving the end users any nasty surprises and you don't have to worry so much about "reprisals" from the users.

Before you ask, no I wouldn't expect every game developer to do that, but ED is no ordinary game. It was funded by players from the outset. When FD had an idea and needed money, they were very communicative. Now they have a product that's doing pretty well, the silence is deafening. That's the problem.
 
Well they can be open and honest, tell us what's coming, keep us informed of it's progress, let us know when things don't go to plan, tell us the reason why they can't deliver what they said they would deliver and things would be fine (as long as the reasons are good and not "money").

What they're doing now is selling a product that you have to pay for up front, not really tell you what you'll be getting for your money, the things they do tell you we are getting change (and they always change for the worst, they get slimmer and crapper, never better, weird that isn't it), they don't inform us of the progress, they don't tell us why things change (other than time/resource issues, but why are there time/resource issues? Wasn't the £40 people paid for Horizons not enough to fund the team to work on the updates???), they don't seek any input from the customers until after an update is developed and won't change in any meaningful way.

Can you see the difference?

Haha, be open and honest? Having a mature discussion?

With gaming communities filled with screaming manchildren?

Good joke. :)
 
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I didn't think The Crew was that bad tbh, but then I got it for free on one of those giveaway things they do. I did make the mistake of buying WatchDogs 2 though, I wouldn't recommend it.

I should Check the Crew out again,

at the start it just wasn't what it was advertised to be "Never Drive Alone", It didn't have any community tools or ways of making friends,

Just checked their reddit, and they have monthly patches.... Learn from them Fdev :p
 

Jex =TE=

Banned
It was the plan when Horizons announced.
Sandro basically said in the livestream that 2.3 is as it is because not enough time.
So they didn't have time to develop 2.3 to the level originally described so you we get this current cut down version.
Why they didn't have time in over a year I've no idea.
Maybe the character creator that will provide probably no more than 20 mins of entertainment was more important than a feature that could have added untold hours of entertainment. I dunno.
It's par for the course though, not enough time, not enough resources.

Well then maybe they'll refeund everyone some of their money. They didn't have time so people shouldn't pay as much. It's not the players fault they couldn't take people off Planet Coaster and the new game to help out and players aren't a charity.

This is exactly the reason perople should never pre-order. Devs make a load of promises, don't deliver and over charge but do they offer anything in return?

"Oh we're sorry we didn't give you even half the things we said we would so here, have a free skin as some compensation as an apology"

That at least would showed they cared about more than their wallet.
 

verminstar

Banned
This is why FD quit communicating with us as much. Crack pots don't understand things change during development.

And obviously things are so much better since they quit communicating...seems like frontier dont have a very thick skin and are huffing more than anything else because not everyone is a fanboi. I understand they bent over backwards to get the ks funding, and now they have the money...?

So did everyone pay fer them to make the game as they see fit...did everyone get what the ks promised? Any reasons given? Or just vague hints and hype trains? I can see so many happy faces, its hard to see the actual issue through that haze of universal happiness...

If I ran a business the way FD ran a business, Id be bankrupt in 3 months...game developement must be a certain kind of special ^
 
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Jex =TE=

Banned
Stuff happens, sometimes its not good, but you have to go ahead anyway. They promised multicrew as part of season 2, they had to deliver something. To do everything they initially planned right now, and assuming what they wanted is still a good idea, then we would be looking at months more.

Perhaps better to get what they have out of the door now so they can move forward. It will probably mean that MC doesn't get any major love for a while afterwards, but at least it won't be holding up other features further.

This doesn't make any sense I don't know why you said it.

Stuff happens? Yes and Dev teams mostly plan for contingencies however, having 75-80% of the content not appearing at all goes into "incompetence".

They had to deliver something? That excuses pushing out any old rubbish does it because that's what is sounds like you're saying and you're making excuses for them. Why are you doing that?

It would take months more? I thought FDev were a team that waited to push out quality content? I'm pretty sure that's been said around here a trillion times already so why are we now going back on that?

Better to shovel the crap they have now at us to shut us up? Move forward into what exactly? Even more unfinished gameplay? Dangle the carrot with engineering stations and navigation officers and give out 3rd person turret? At least it won't be holding up other unfinished features???? Whaaat? lol

What's the poi8nt of developing a game with naff, unfinished gameplay? I thought FD took their time to get it right - what happened to that? So now we're saying they can just shove anything at us because we don't want it getting in the way of other features? This is an oxymoron. With this attitude we'll never get any finished features because "we can't be wasting time even though we've told everyone we'll get it right before publishing it"

MC won't get any love later because it's most likely going to fail in the tiny additional content they've provided. Someone's cake example earlier was spot on. Nobody is going to think you're going to make a better cake only if you first cake is popular but you baked it with salt so nowe it's unpopular and you're not baking a second cake.

Self. Fullfilling. Prophecy.
 
imo it will be BIG DLCs... so essentially seasons but all in 1 go.

and in fact i wonder if that is one of the reasons for the stretching out of horizons.... staff taken out of S2 and put onto S3 to speed up S3 so it will be complete to release in 1 job lot, with fewer people working on S2, but with an extra 6-12 months to get it done.
if this is true, it could mean by the end of this year, FD will be "back on track". DLC #2 will release winter 2017, largely complete, then for the next 12 months updates will be tweaks and fleshing out of the game, but no big ticket new features, being done by 1 team of devs, with the lions share working on DLC#3/S4

I would like this the most. But It requires a lot of up-front work, which seems like a large change in culture for FD. They seem to be more of a "seat of the pants" style dev studio. Tho, the on thing that prevents me from calling this unlikely is that it would be cheaper to do on Consoles, since each update to push through M$ and $ony cost money, AFAIK.
 
Well there have been hints dropped that the model of future expansions is due to change.
If you think of this season other than Planetary landings are any of the updates dependent on each other?
I think 2.1, could have been sold separately if people have 2.0 (since some Engineers require you to land on planets).
2.2. and 2.3 I don't think contained any content you needed to land on planets for so could have been sold separately.

I think the lack of revenue from people not buying certain DLC will be weighed against people not buying a Season 3 pass since FD have done such a poor job this season.

I actually think DLC would be good for the consumer in this regard as FD would have to produce something people want to pay for rather than tricking people into buying a season pass without telling people what will be in it/telling people it will contain X and delivering the bare minimum to tick a box.

I do think they're dependant on each-other (excpet for 2.3). If they weren't then;
2.1 would need for RNGineer bases to be in space, not on surfaces, and the collection of materials would be even less interesting than it currently is.
2.2 would need all passenger missions tweaked so that none of them have planetary destinations in roster, making this element even less interesting than it already is.
2.3 Would need a mode which removes a "crewlogram" from your ship if you enter into an activity that he's not having access to. If you have a ship that's come in an update he didn't pay for, can he join you? Can he go down to planet surfaces without the access to that update?

What this would mean is that all updates would need more restrictions than they already have, and actually make each one worth less to the players than the sum of their parts would otherwise be. This is even assuming FD are capable to addressing the "piecemeal" builds that their community would be running, which could be a QA nightmare.

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It's amazing that alot of the same people on the forum create threads like this, digging up past discussions of planned features and using them as a basis for holding FDev to ransom for not delivering on their promises, whilst at the same time, those same posters will complain about why FDev is now so vague about their development plans...

I mean, we can't have it both ways, folks.

We either be mature enough to realise that sometimes things change in game development and accept that, allowing FDev the freedom to talk openly about their future plans for the game without fear of reprisal...

... or we continue to doggedly hang off their every remark and see every miniscule public mention of of an idea concerning ED as a signed-in-blood covenant of what they promise to deliver, and simply accept the fact that FDev will only tell us what's coming when they can be sure that it will very very unlikely to change prior to release.

If things changed so a few things were different, I'd very much agree with you. But MC has been massively stripped down to the studs. Now, I'm not especially but-hurt about it since I don;t intend to be anyone's wookie, and I don;t expect anyone would want to be mine. But if this was an NPC crew update that got reduced from what was sold to what's being delivered in 2.3 I'd be very much annoyed.
 

Jex =TE=

Banned
Would anyone actually enjoy sitting in a ship you don't control except for managing the power and rebooting/repairing damaged modules?

Yes actually.... :)

[video=youtube;W0DDr_G6mGc]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W0DDr_G6mGc[/video]


Notice the guy sitting in the first person turret about 1 or 2 mins in as the captain shows everyone around the different stations to be crewed where they have to deal with navigation, shields, engineering.

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Well there are games out there that have multicrew gameplay which players actually enjoy.
E.g. Pulsar Lost Colony
http://store.steampowered.com/app/252870/

Lots of people enjoy the different roles in Pulsar since it has well developed roles.
If ED multicrew had well developed roles for Engineering, Tactical, Navigation etc... then no people wouldn't be bored.

FD admit that multicrew is as it is because of time/resources not that the roles they planned (and announced) would be in this update weren't fun.

Aaaannnnnd the very next post is..... LOL :D
 

Jex =TE=

Banned
It's amazing that alot of the same people on the forum create threads like this, digging up past discussions of planned features and using them as a basis for holding FDev to ransom for not delivering on their promises, whilst at the same time, those same posters will complain about why FDev is now so vague about their development plans...

I mean, we can't have it both ways, folks.

We either be mature enough to realise that sometimes things change in game development and accept that, allowing FDev the freedom to talk openly about their future plans for the game without fear of reprisal...

... or we continue to doggedly hang off their every remark and see every miniscule public mention of of an idea concerning ED as a signed-in-blood covenant of what they promise to deliver, and simply accept the fact that FDev will only tell us what's coming when they can be sure that it will very very unlikely to change prior to release.

So what you're saying is when someone says "Buy this early and we'll put all in this" making threads complaining about not getting what people were told is an issue? That's a rather odd take on things because complaining is exactly the normal thing to do.

What FDev's issue is they're just rushing crap out the door to meet deadlines. This means screw the quality, just get it out whereas they should be saying, nope, the players can wait until we get this right.

To give an example, DayZ has a roadmap and then they deliver on features. They said in 2015 spring we'd have the new graphics engine. Summer 2016 we got it (I think those dats are right if not,the time period is correct). Massively behind on their roadmap they didn't cop out on the players. They kept going to make sure it was done.

The point here being, is anyone here that bothered if MC took another 6 months or a year if they added in the things they said? I think we're all willing to wait for good content but this cheap, lacklustre effort only hurts the game.
 
[SP][/SP]
It's amazing that alot of the same people on the forum create threads like this, digging up past discussions of planned features and using them as a basis for holding FDev to ransom for not delivering on their promises, whilst at the same time, those same posters will complain about why FDev is now so vague about their development plans...

I mean, we can't have it both ways, folks.

We either be mature enough to realise that sometimes things change in game development and accept that, allowing FDev the freedom to talk openly about their future plans for the game without fear of reprisal...

... or we continue to doggedly hang off their every remark and see every miniscule public mention of of an idea concerning ED as a signed-in-blood covenant of what they promise to deliver, and simply accept the fact that FDev will only tell us what's coming when they can be sure that it will very very unlikely to change prior to release.

I think this is fine with things that are said before the release of 2.0, but when selling a DLC which had a rather vague list of deliverables, you'd expect their short list to be released. One would assume they have a full project pipeline set out.
 
Hi everyone,

Development is a complex process. We tested and discussed some of the features that Adam mentioned and they either weren’t good from a gameplay perspective, or we simply weren't able to integrate them for technical and time reasons. I'm sure you understand that there was never any intention to deceive, only to do what’s best for the game. We did caveat it on the stream itself, too... unfortunately things change.

We like being as transparent as we possibly can be at FD. We like talking to you and telling you about the exciting things that we're working on! Sometimes that means that information changes, or you hear about things that then can't be implemented. I'll say it again, we like seeing the community get hyped, and thanks to your respect, excitement and understanding we're able to continue doing it!
 
The trouble is that time reason is quite hard to listen as the whole season 2 seems to take age to complete.

Multi crew is quite under people expectations​. I do not see any interest in it because to me it does not match the roles I expect to play.

Moreover it turned into a small mini game dedicated to DPS only. Without all the great things we could do in exploration, mining, trading.

Just a CZ/RES feature.

Rather sad about it.
 

Jex =TE=

Banned
Hi everyone,

Development is a complex process. We tested and discussed some of the features that Adam mentioned and they either weren’t good from a gameplay perspective, or we simply weren't able to integrate them for technical and time reasons. I'm sure you understand that there was never any intention to deceive, only to do what’s best for the game. We did caveat it on the stream itself, too... unfortunately things change.

We like being as transparent as we possibly can be at FD. We like talking to you and telling you about the exciting things that we're working on! Sometimes that means that information changes, or you hear about things that then can't be implemented. I'll say it again, we like seeing the community get hyped, and thanks to your respect, excitement and understanding we're able to continue doing it!

So what happened to taking the time to get things right? Wasn't that what FDev have been saying for ages? Has that changed now?
 
Hi everyone,

Development is a complex process. We tested and discussed some of the features that Adam mentioned and they either weren’t good from a gameplay perspective, or we simply weren't able to integrate them for technical and time reasons. I'm sure you understand that there was never any intention to deceive, only to do what’s best for the game. We did caveat it on the stream itself, too... unfortunately things change.

We like being as transparent as we possibly can be at FD. We like talking to you and telling you about the exciting things that we're working on! Sometimes that means that information changes, or you hear about things that then can't be implemented. I'll say it again, we like seeing the community get hyped, and thanks to your respect, excitement and understanding we're able to continue doing it!

Thanks Edward. I think it would be great if it were possible to go into a little bit more detail as to which parts where dropped due to time/technical issues, and what that means for the future. Are these ideas permanent dropped? Any chance of them being added in 2.4? David Braben just tweeted an article which talks about the devs working on much larger ships with much more complex MC, and it just doesnt rhyme with what Sandro said during PAX (no plans for now etc). Some more clarifications would be much appreciated!

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So what happened to taking the time to get things right? Wasn't that what FDev have been saying for ages? Has that changed now?

2.3 was delayed by six months, going from 3 months to 9 months dev time. At some point something has to be released dude...
 

Jex =TE=

Banned
Thanks Edward. I think it would be great if it were possible to go into a little bit more detail as to which parts where dropped due to time/technical issues, and what that means for the future. Are these ideas permanent dropped? Any chance of them being added in 2.4? David Braben just tweeted an article which talks about the devs working on much larger ships with much more complex MC, and it just doesnt rhyme with what Sandro said during PAX (no plans for now etc). Some more clarifications would be much appreciated!

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2.3 was delayed by six months, going from 3 months to 9 months dev time. At some point something has to be released dude...

That's fine just lets drop the claim "We're taking our time to get things right" - Like I said earlier, BIS went a year and a quarter over time to get their prooduct right. I don't find your response compelling though - it says, just chuck any old crap out. Not sure how they managed to to go from al lthe stuff they said would be in MC to what we have now - this means they have no clue how long to code stuff as they're 80% short or they coded this stuff, found out it sucked and removed it, meaning they don't have a clue about game play.

You can't have it both ways. We either wait for good stuff and get quality or FDev admit they're just going to shove out bare bones content because of "time" - what time? Shareholders time? Who here isn't prepared to wait for quality?
 
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