MULTICREW: Adam Woods describing MC during the Horizons' launch stream.

[Harmoniser]

As someone who has watched (and featured) in a lot of the videos and livestreams and Dev comments I'd say FDev have done their best to manage expectations based on observation of the feedback (or fallout).
They learnt from both the offline mode fallout and NMS "whoops" and started put the caveats in, look at the old dev videos, look at the kickstarter videos. Theres no caveats at all on those.

There was also a clear step change towards about 1.3 or 1.4 release. The Q&A's changed from "On the list for the future" to "No comment". If you want the best example of that look at the Lavecon 2016 Q&A (I asked one of the questions there).

Finally Dev updates. Being fair we can't 100% attribute this to the user reaction, the dev updates stopping could be for other reasons, but you can't deny it fits the story.


Overall yes I think we can totally attribute Frontiers gradually changing stance to others, the players and the people that give feedback. The evidence is there, there's a definite trend that they take feedback and change + adapt accordingly.


I get your post may have come across to me as more direct than you intended it but my honest fear is that they will again adapt from this and others and end up just ignoring our questions entirely. What if next they decided no more Q&As, no more announcements, no news until they are 100% certain it will happen. Probably announce it after the update goes live just to be sure there are no launch errors.

Yes I agree it's changed a lot and I agree we should be discussing and suggesting and making it known how much we want those other features. There was a PAX livestream that asked that exact question on Fri 9th March and the answer was that if multicrew is popular and well used they will add further functionality. It's not cut and dry finished this is multicrew.

I do agree and I do also want those additional features, but I disagree with the way you are asking for them. It comes across almost as demanding with the terminology you used. Again maybe not your intent but thats how I read it (maybe I'm jaded as you said ).
Yeah, maybe I responded a bit harshly, like I said you struck a bit of a nerve for me there so sorry for that.



Some of the kickstarter vids with DB talking about his vision for the game were pretty solid and detailed. They have gone less and less ever since launch and the offline mode "excuse me"

Totally worth a re-watch in the background even if they are 4-5 years old now.



1) No you don't know that 80% of multicrew won't see the light of day. Could easily be added later
2) No you didn't order a 6 topping pizza. You ordered a pizza that would contain meat and cheese, they said it may be a multi-cheese pizza and maybe will have pepperoni but all you got was salami and were disappointed.

They only announced headlines officially on the store page, You paid for this:

Spoiler

View attachment 116847

And any argument that says a livestream video saying it "may" include this or "possibly will include that" not even linked on the store is in any way indicative of a promise is just silly. No promises, no ETA's, just a "as developers we want to see this".
NMS was different because the exact words "It will have this at launch" were spoken repeatedly and in absolutes. Frontier had a similar issue with offline mode and offered refunds since they had explicitly said that Elite will have Offline mode at launch.

3) Who promised 3 months. They said back in 2015 that a season isn't necessarily a year. I too am disappointed that the development has slowed and updates are more spread but again, there were no promises. Technically a complete "season" is 4 months as we have 4 seasons in the year (Summer/Spring/Winter/Autumn) but in software development that term now means whatever you want it to.

But Alex you know the comms around whole offline mode was badly handle by Fdev. Things have been better since they brought Ed in, who I must say has been an excellent addition to Fdev.

But I've seen the DB stuff from 4 years ago, I was an early backer. As an economic historian I was fascinated by the economic model as described by DB, unfortunately it never happened. But I'm not sure how useful they are for understanding the future of ED if we also have to assume nothing is nailed down.

 

[Ian Skippy]

I disagree. The reason FD don't say anything is because they can't deliver as we've seen time and time again. Now the OP was telling us what FD said was going to be in Horizons, specifically MC - did you read his post because it's right there.

OK so now we know 80% of MC won't see the light of day. Now when FDev announced MC it's my understanding they advertised all the bells and whistles and happily took your money. Now we get to where we are now and they're not delivering.

So this would be like ordering a pizza with 6 toppings and it turns up with 1 topping. When you ask why and point out you paid for it already the delivery guys says "Yeah sorry, we didn't have time to make it right so be happy with what you're given"

That is not acceptable behaviour. You might get away with that once but don't expect to keep any customers later.

As an aside, what the heck were they thinking when they thought they could code stuff in 3 months?!! This is the strabgest part of it all that FDev actually thought they could code these seasons in 3 months...

They'll clearly keep plenty of customers. Feel welcome to not be one of them if you so wish.

 

[Monk]

We can come up with "reasons" and "faults" until the end of time.

What matters is how people feel about the game. It is perception that will determine the fate of the game.

For my part, I'm happy with what the base game offers. I'm happy with planet landings. Everything else, for me, has been underwhelming. I'm still waiting for something that sets this game apart, other than being the only space game I care to play.

My attention span isn't infinite, and what I've seen from Sandro or Ed hasn't really been inspiring save for a few "that's neat" moments.

 

[Ignition]

This is a good example of why FD keep quiet about the details of planned expansions.

No, this is a good example of how FD keeps dumbing down continuously Elite Dangerous.

 

[Ian Phillips]

No, this is a good example of how FD keeps dumbing down continuously Elite Dangerous.

LOL. Continuously, for how long? Over two years? Amazing the game actually starts at all if this is true.

 

[dannysquid]

All this moaning is depressing. If you don't like the game other ones are available. Although not many that are attempting what ELITE is attempting.

 

[cheesenbiscuits]

I believe they are quiet because they never know how to do what they set out to do.

Back to type i see,good,i was starting to worry.

Why is it an example for that? Is there something wrong with what I said? I would like you to try to explain your point of view.

There was mention of things you're entitled to because a dev mentioned it.
This is an unfortunate draw back of game development,things go wrong,plans get changed.

Lets say for instance they reveal the level they are at with space legs. And they plan to release in season 4.
6 months down the line they encounter a catastrophic issue that will push the release date to season 5.
This happened in Star Citizen,a whole module was binned.
I would love to see behind the scenes,but some humans can't be trusted with all that knowledge.
We'd end up with endless threads demanding a refund because "the landing gear update for the Viper had been scrapped!"
I think FD are wise to keep it all hush hush.

 

[Bonzodog]

Just going to leave this here -

 

[Monk]

All this moaning is depressing. If you don't like the game other ones are available. Although not many that are attempting what ELITE is attempting.

Kinda obvious isn't it?

Get fed up with the pace of development and the content of releases for Elite, then what do you turn to as an alternative? All of your options are going be games more than a decade old or you will wait in perpetual hype for Star Citizen.

Of course, you could always play a different genre...but who wants to do that?

 

[Ian Skippy]

LOL. Continuously, for how long? Over two years? Amazing the game actually starts at all if this is true.

Yeah, dont you remember how Ignition praised the game for its depth at launch?

- - - Updated - - -

All this moaning is depressing. If you don't like the game other ones are available. Although not many that are attempting what ELITE is attempting.

There is nothing better. They love space games, except for those that exist. ::

 

[iFred]

This is a good example of why FD keep quiet about the details of planned expansions.

Yeah.
Now they are. When it was important (during kickstarter) they behaved slightly different.

 

[Marcus Tullius]

No, this is a good example of how FD keeps dumbing down continuously Elite Dangerous.

No, this is a good example of how FD is adjusting the development plan in accordance with sales. They will put as less as possible content in season 3 to achieve satisfactory financial result and nobody can pretend that something is promised.

 

[Monk]

Yeah.
Now they are. When it was important (during kickstarter) they behaved slightly different.

Yeah, FDev has been fairly tight-lipped ever since 1.x updates started rolling in. They really clammed up after 3/3/2016.

 

[cheesenbiscuits]

No, this is a good example of how FD is adjusting the development plan in accordance with sales. They will put as less as possible content in season 3 to achieve satisfactory financial result and nobody can pretend that something is promised.

They are?
Or should i assume you're literally making things up?

 

[Monk]

Alright...Q&A in a minute or two...I'm sure all of our concerns and questions will be addressed /s

 

[IamMe]

Hi everyone,

Development is a complex process. We tested and discussed some of the features that Adam mentioned and they either weren’t good from a gameplay perspective, or we simply weren't able to integrate them for technical and time reasons. I'm sure you understand that there was never any intention to deceive, only to do what’s best for the game. We did caveat it on the stream itself, too... unfortunately things change.

We like being as transparent as we possibly can be at FD. We like talking to you and telling you about the exciting things that we're working on! Sometimes that means that information changes, or you hear about things that then can't be implemented. I'll say it again, we like seeing the community get hyped, and thanks to your respect, excitement and understanding we're able to continue doing it!

hi Ed!
if you like to talk to community so much and get us all hyped than i have question to ask and i'm sure whole community would be hyped to hear answer.
When we can aprox expect (no ETA or promises) lifeless atmo planets with landable feature? year,two,three.....nine?

 

[Besensec]

There was mention of things you're entitled to because a dev mentioned it.

Lets say for instance they reveal the level they are at with space legs. And they plan to release in season 4.
6 months down the line they encounter a catastrophic issue that will push the release date to season 5.
This happened in Star Citizen,a whole module was binned.
I would love to see behind the scenes,but some humans can't be trusted with all that knowledge.
We'd end up with endless threads demanding a refund because "the landing gear update for the Viper had been scrapped!"
I think FD are wise to keep it all hush hush.

That hypothetical scenario is better than saying Space Legs is coming in S4, and then come out and reveal the exiting S4 of non-spacelegs features, or, in a less extreme scenario, the extremely cut off version of Space Legs, all the while expecting no criticism for not reaching the goals. Mistakes were done, and I guess they learned from them; no more wild dreaming of features they are not sure they can implement. They will be insane if they kept the same attitude as they had a while back. But to go to the other extreme is not healthy either. If they have a problem doing what they said they will do in a timely manner, then they can postpone it. No issue with that (as long as it is not done with dissimulation). But they need to make clear the plan of action from that point on, just to keep the trust in their product, and to ensure that there is an intention to redeem (to some feasible extent) the dissonance between the advertising and the reality. Again, one more time, it is entirely proportional, given the history of ED, to loose the trust on FD (should we expect completely fulfilled features in the future?). And yes, I think I am entitled to an explanation; they asked for us to understand them, and I do, but I ask them to understand my disappointment as well and to act in accordance to this dissatisfaction. Of course, this cannot be done in a one by one basis, but they need to address the corresponding solutions to the community as a whole.

There seems to be a near consensus releasing at least some plan for the future of MC. Would you disagree with that? Isn't that what we all would like? Trust me, without the criticism such thing will never happen. FD will be happy with the way things are now. It takes critical people to revert things when they go wrong. If after all this controversy, we receive a suggested solution towards the future of MC, you can thank the critics, not the apologetics, and much less the fanboys. Hopefully, we will get to enjoy MC together in a better iteration.

Also, I think it is important to stress that criticizing the game is not to dislike it or hate it. Same goes for Frontier. Moreover, Frontier and Elite are two different objects, and criticizing one is not criticizing the other. To mix them both only shows a flawed reasoning, and potentially stupidity invested in arrogance.

PS: Sandro's burp on tonight's stream was awesome!

 

[Besensec]

So I watched the stream, and I listened carefully. I appreciate the transparency, and I value it as a sincere attempt and a perfect response to the request for more communication. But what was said in regard to this thread was fairly upsetting. So dear FD:

1. Don't use as a defense that you share things because you like sharing. You also share things because you are selling a product. There is no innocence there, advertising is pretty much a zero sum game. And yes, the live streams count as promotion and advertising. This is an ad misericordiam, appealing to pity as a defense, why not address directly to the points being objected instead?
   
2. No, we are not accusing you of lying. Things can be misleading for a variety of reasons, most of them don't involve lying. In this case, it was a matter of bad timing for talking about your cool plans for the product that you were selling. The bad timing is because you barely started the work on all the things you said at the time you announced we will be getting them. Although you don't lie in the live streams, you are not honest in the trailers either. Should we have mercy on that too? When I said in the OP that things were misleading, I said it in order to call for a change in the strategy, and in order to explain why people came to expect more from MC. Not to accuse you of tricking us. However, it is expectable for customers to feel tricked when this happens.
   
3. You said that things change, and I agree; everyone agrees. But repeating that doesn't work as a defense of anything, since this is not the point of our disagreement. What is being objected is MC being in its bare bones, and its future relying on the reception of an incomplete feature. I can accept the bare bones, what I don't accept is its uncertain future. If Elite is open to its future as Sandro emphasized, then why not making plans for MC right now? Why not assuring that it will be expanded in the light of the current demand?
   
4. You said that you are going to see how MC is received. Are the forums not clear enough?
   
5. You address to the argument as if it was disrespectful and unrealistic. I might be wrong though, since you were more careful in this point, but please, don't poison the well by pairing the argument with the disrespectful interventions of some people in the forum. The fact that the criticism come sometimes with disrespect doesn't invalidate the argument at its core. Some of us make valid points with clarity, care and respect. But the defenses mostly focus conveniently on the other ones.
   
6. If you suggest that we are unreasonable for expecting too much based on statements made by Frontier at an extremely early stage in the development of MC, then you shouldn't have done those statements at such an early stage. If you were going to announce MC as you did during a live stream at the moment of releasing and selling Season 2, only to discover later that they wont work out in terms of gameplay, then you should have put more thought before announcing them. Don't blame us, blame yourself.
   
7. We didn't put you in a scary position, you put yourself in there when you offered things that you didn't have, when you sold more than you could provide. Don't play the victim.

Evidently I have irreconcilable perceptions of this with FD. And I can absolutely anticipate what I am going to be told from some; that it is time to move on. And it is. It seems they cant admit the mistakes they have done; their view matched perfectly the ones from the fanboys. I wonder if the fanboys had as much power on them as the trolls did. Ones scared them, the others legitimated them. With such reiteration of the same attitude, it is clear there is nothing else I can expect from them. Sadly, there is nothing else I can do, besides the silliness of a negative review on Steam, and not buying anything else from them. This thread is over for me.

 

[cheesenbiscuits]

Please don't assume you speak for the forum,because you don't.
Your whole argument relies on an assumption that your opinion is the correct one.

What if you aren't owed anything other than a cool space sim.
And being part of this work in process requires you to except delays and changes that may seem the wrong way to go.
FD shouldn't spend a single minute coming up with long winded explanations as to the technical reasons to why some particular doohickey zagged instead of zigging.

 

[rajziel]

Please don't assume you speak for the forum,because you don't.
Your whole argument relies on an assumption that your opinion is the correct one.

What if you aren't owed anything other than a cool space sim.
And being part of this work in process requires you to except delays and changes that may seem the wrong way to go.
FD shouldn't spend a single minute coming up with long winded explanations as to the technical reasons to why some particular doohickey zagged instead of zigging.

When they sold a season pass promising features and then dont deliver that then yes they do.

They should have been "transparent" a lot earlier

This company is absolutely awful for this communication. they only get vocal around releases.

Otherwise offer a refund for people who feel deceived and call it at that