MULTICREW: Adam Woods describing MC during the Horizons' launch stream.

[Jex =TE=]

Which they have done up to this point.

And? That's irrelevant isn't it because as I understand it, the cost of Horizons included all the way up to 2.4.

Has 2.4 been released? No. Therefore FDev are in debt.

- - - Updated - - -

You can't compare anything to Star Citizen. Chris Roberts is the worst person in the world to have in charge of a project. He's the classic enthusiastic developer. Well intentioned, bursting with enthusiasm but with absolutely no control over his compulsion to keep adding feature after feature after feature to the point where what he ends up with is impossible to deliver. Go read the story of the development of Freelancer for an insight into why Star Citizen, as pitched by Chris, will never see the light of day.

Also, 'if it's not what I want everything is a lie and everyone is clueless' is not what Jex said. He merely pointed out that it's better to do something right, even if it takes a bit longer, than to just half bake it and rush it out so you can move on to the next shiny thing and he's right.

Cheers dude, can't rep you again

 

[jasonbarron]

This.

This is why the Devs tell us nothing about development and keep everything close to the chest. This is why most of the Q&A streams result in "No comment". This is why we can't have nice things because even with giant caveats that they repeat every 5 seconds "No ETA, no guarantees" and the lead designer having the nickname "Sandro No Sammarco" people still respond with words like "misleading" and "False advertising" and "Unacceptable"

Whats unacceptable is peoples failure to listen and then becoming indignant at things that may still happen in the future and explicitly not promised when first discussed.

I know the OP made an edit and that's good but jeez folks this really did hit a nerve with me because there are many people here that would love to hear of a vision of the future even if the vision is sold as an apple and the end result is a pear. At least we hear a broad plan rather than "no comment". At least we know there is a future and plans and hopes and dreams for the game.

All that will come of this is less communication from FDev.

Rant over. Peace, carry on as you were although not for long as you are discussing people not topics now

You nailed it, Alex. This is exactly why we don't get much in the way of news and Fdev is percieved as being "secretive." If people were not so quick to pack up with their torches & pitchforks we probably would get more news concerning the future.

 

[Jex =TE=]

This nails it on the head. If we want FD to clam up and never tell us anything, picking over something said in 2015 before they did the implementation will surely work to shut them up for good.

At some point you have to say, its ready to deploy, even though its not as full featured as we first hoped it would be within the resources devoted to it. That happens all the time with software.

No it doesn't. Whether FD clam up or open up literally will have nothing to do with what a hundred or so forum users dicuss on a forum. I don't know why you think we have this much power but it's simply ridiculous to think FD would base decisions on what to say because a handful of people are chatting on their forums LMAO. Where on earth did you get that idea from!??

 

[no namn]

And? That's irrelevant isn't it because as I understand it, the cost of Horizons included all the way up to 2.4.

Has 2.4 been released? No. Therefore FDev are in debt.

and by the same reasoning they have been "in debt" since day 1 of relasing any season pass or whatever u have bought... so nothing have changed in that respect, in fact u already accepted the in debt-part when u bought it, or did u miss that?

 

[DefiledDragon]

When you already spend 300% of the expected time, I think its fair to say they have spend 'a bit longer'.

True, but personally I would prefer if they spent a bit longer and fleshed it out a bit more, unless of course they can't think of anything meaningful to do with MC beyond sticking somebody in a turret, which is entirely possible. The reason I would prefer them to put the extra time and effort in now is because history has shown that they aren't likely to revisit the mechanic to add anything meaningful beyond tweaking manned turret damage values down a bit to compensate for the increase in accuracy.

- - - Updated - - -

The bolded is key here. Contrary to your claim, ED is now JUST LIKE other games. The initial game that was funded by the players was delivered (in a form) and now they are selling a boxed product with expansions and DLC, in order to fund further development. If they are no longer beholden to backers on a crowd-funding website to pay the bills, but are now beholden to customers who buy their product software, expansion and DLC, then they will need to keep their cards to their chest to better manage the expectations of those existing and potential new customers... same as any other game developer.

We as the community shouldn't expect the same level of openness and transparency with FDev's dev plans as we enjoyed during the crowd-funding days... exactly because times have changed and those days are over.

Now, don't confuse me with one who is saying FDev can't afford to be more open about their plans. I believe they can and should, but I also believe that the community have shown time and time again how poorly they're able to manager their own expectations when even the slightest amount of information regarding FDev's dev plans are released. The sheer number of false conclusions some of these peeps on these forums jump to when a new feature is announced in an infant state, is embarassing. I'm quite surprised that FDev share any information regarding development with us at all, until a feature is tested and fully ready to be released.

Fair comment and you're quite right, FD don't have to display any level of openness as was the way during the KS, but just because they don't have to it doesn't mean they shouldn't. The KS backers can be viewed as investors. Some people threw a tremendous amount of money at this project and while there's nothing stopping FD from saying "well, you got what you paid for but now you're out of the loop" it's a pretty crappy way to treat your most devoted customers.

 

[Besensec]

This.

This is why the Devs tell us nothing about development and keep everything close to the chest. This is why most of the Q&A streams result in "No comment". This is why we can't have nice things because even with giant caveats that they repeat every 5 seconds "No ETA, no guarantees" and the lead designer having the nickname "Sandro No Sammarco" people still respond with words like "misleading" and "False advertising" and "Unacceptable"

Whats unacceptable is peoples failure to listen and then becoming indignant at things that may still happen in the future and explicitly not promised when first discussed.

I know the OP made an edit and that's good but jeez folks this really did hit a nerve with me because there are many people here that would love to hear of a vision of the future even if the vision is sold as an apple and the end result is a pear. At least we hear a broad plan rather than "no comment". At least we know there is a future and plans and hopes and dreams for the game.

All that will come of this is less communication from FDev.

Rant over. Peace, carry on as you were although not for long as you are discussing people not topics now

One more time; we don't need to manage expectations if FD managed its own. Regarding your comment on the current "no comment" attitude, there is a shift that you perceive as a reaction to user feedback. But you can also consider user feedback as a reaction to FD claims. So which way does it go in reality? the way I see it, is that FD claimed too many things, in an attempt to hype people to make them buy their product, and then shifted their attitude once the money was there, all while they started to step back from too many of their claims. They were sincere, I didn't accuse them of anything in the first post; they really wanted to reach those goals, but the ones lighting up expectations were themselves in the first place.

And you mention the caveat, let me mention the caveat to the caveat (you can check that in the video, I also pointed that out in the edit). They meant things will change, but not too much. When it comes to MC, they changed a lot. So please, tell me how my argument is not reasonable? And the edit that I put, was only to make something explicit even more explicit. It was part of my argument that things change, but you seem to have missed that point.

I don't get why people blame FD's silence on the criticism, while neglecting the fact that criticism is always desirable. It can only make things better. We are all uncomfortable with the silence from FD, but there is no need to blame it on the others. FD is responsible for its own silence, and also for its own claims. In fact, a major point of my argument and the suggested solution to the problem, is communication.

I respect you a lot Alex, and I know there is a lot of gratuitous bashing towards ED and FD (and I tried to avoid that in my post as well, guess you missed that too), but please, read more carefully before putting all the rotten apples in the same sack. I know some people are immature and unreasonable, but there is nothing we can do about it. The fact that some criticism comes from idiots doesn't mean there is no valid criticism, and the same goes for the apologies. Some apologetics are idiots as well, if the forum was full of those, devs could be more than satisfied with less than mediocrity.

 

[Jex =TE=]

and by the same reasoning they have been "in debt" since day 1 of relasing any season pass or whatever u have bought... so nothing have changed in that respect, in fact u already accepted the in debt-part when u bought it, or did u miss that?

Well Ididn't buy it but I'm just clarifying how FD are still in debt to the people that bought Horizons and still owe them 2.4 as some people here seem to have trouble grasping that.

 

[SeeZaa]

some players wonder why developers are becoming less and less forthcoming about their upcoming ideas, why they are more vague about current decision making within their game. this thread, and many others like it, are pretty much the crux of the problem. many players will take any idea, or consideration, uttered by a developer, and assume it to be a statement of intent, or commitment to implement. so when that particular idea isn't realised, or maybe done in a different way, those same players become vocal and make a scene about it.

the issue here is not the developer.. its the repetitive stream of those who cant understand, expressing a desire to do something, is not the same as confirming a decision to do it. i cant blame the developers, of any game, for becoming more withdrawn from their player base, its just too much hassle. saying that, i think the interaction we get from frontier is far better than most.

 

[Deadspin]

some players wonder why developers are becoming less and less forthcoming about their upcoming ideas, why they are more vague about current decision making within their game. this thread, and many others like it, are pretty much the crux of the problem. many players will take any idea, or consideration, uttered by a developer, and assume it to be a statement of intent, or commitment to implement. so when that particular idea isn't realised, or maybe done in a different way, those same players become vocal and make a scene about it.

the issue here is not the developer.. its the repetitive stream of those who cant understand, expressing a desire to do something, is not the same as confirming a decision to do it. i cant blame the developers, of any game, for becoming more withdrawn from their player base, its just too much hassle. saying that, i think the interaction we get from frontier is far better than most.

Quoted for truth.

 

[Harmoniser]

You nailed it, Alex. This is exactly why we don't get much in the way of news and Fdev is percieved as being "secretive." If people were not so quick to pack up with their torches & pitchforks we probably would get more news concerning the future.

I agree with you and Alex that things like this can put off some developers from providing more info, but I don't think fdev have ever really provided a great amount of info, so they don't have much to pull back from.

I think fdev could do what CIG did and open up everything, ignore the idiots and let the sensible ones provide feedback and points of view on future features.

Right now we don't know what's going to happen post 2.3, that's not becuase of posts like the OPs. Cloak and dagger has been the way ever since 1.0 landed.

 

[Winterwalker]

The devs don't have to respond to every inaccurate, self-indulgent and whiny post that appears on the forums. They used too, but arrogant children played whack-a-mole with them whenever they raised their heads up and here we are. Welcome to the world of your own creation.

Stop taking ad-hoc comments on streams and forum posts as cast iron promises. Your blood pressure will be a lot lower.

This ^ wins the internet.

 

[Jex =TE=]

This.

This is why the Devs tell us nothing about development and keep everything close to the chest. This is why most of the Q&A streams result in "No comment". This is why we can't have nice things because even with giant caveats that they repeat every 5 seconds "No ETA, no guarantees" and the lead designer having the nickname "Sandro No Sammarco" people still respond with words like "misleading" and "False advertising" and "Unacceptable"

Whats unacceptable is peoples failure to listen and then becoming indignant at things that may still happen in the future and explicitly not promised when first discussed.

I know the OP made an edit and that's good but jeez folks this really did hit a nerve with me because there are many people here that would love to hear of a vision of the future even if the vision is sold as an apple and the end result is a pear. At least we hear a broad plan rather than "no comment". At least we know there is a future and plans and hopes and dreams for the game.

All that will come of this is less communication from FDev.

Rant over. Peace, carry on as you were although not for long as you are discussing people not topics now

I disagree. The reason FD don't say anything is because they can't deliver as we've seen time and time again. Now the OP was telling us what FD said was going to be in Horizons, specifically MC - did you read his post because it's right there.

OK so now we know 80% of MC won't see the light of day. Now when FDev announced MC it's my understanding they advertised all the bells and whistles and happily took your money. Now we get to where we are now and they're not delivering.

So this would be like ordering a pizza with 6 toppings and it turns up with 1 topping. When you ask why and point out you paid for it already the delivery guys says "Yeah sorry, we didn't have time to make it right so be happy with what you're given"

That is not acceptable behaviour. You might get away with that once but don't expect to keep any customers later.

As an aside, what the heck were they thinking when they thought they could code stuff in 3 months?!! This is the strabgest part of it all that FDev actually thought they could code these seasons in 3 months...

 

[verminstar]

Seems to be a disconnect somewhere with some blaming the players and some blaming FD...wheres a poll when ye need it?

I see the arguments both ways and I still blame FD...this is a mess of their own making. So the feedback all has to be positive and if they dont get all the praise, they throw the toys outta the pram and stop communicating. Not very thick skinned then are they? Its like saying the feedback has to be biased and no negatives at all...or am I missing something?

 

[Alex Brentnall]

One more time; we don't need to manage expectations if FD managed its own. Regarding your comment on the current "no comment" attitude, there is a shift that you perceive as a reaction to user feedback. But you can also consider user feedback as a reaction to FD claims. So which way does it go in reality? the way I see it, is that FD claimed too many things, in an attempt to hype people to make them buy their product, and then shifted their attitude once the money was there, all while they started to step back from too many of their claims. They were sincere, I didn't accuse them of anything in the first post; they really wanted to reach those goals, but the ones lighting up expectations were themselves in the first place.

And you mention the caveat, let me mention the caveat to the caveat. They meant things will change, but not too much. When it comes to MC, they changed a lot. So please, tell me how my argument is not reasonable? And the edit that I put, was only to make something explicit even more explicit. It was part of my argument that things change, but you seem to have missed that point. I don't get why people blame FD's silence on the criticism, while neglecting the fact that criticism is always desirable. It can only make things better. We are all uncomfortable with the silence from FD, but there is no need to blame it on the others. FD is responsible for its own silence, and also for its own claims. In fact, a major point of my argument and the suggested solution to the problem, is communication.

I respect you a lot Alex, and I know there is a lot of gratuitous bashing towards ED and FD (and I tried to avoid that in my post as well, guess you missed that too), but please, read more carefully before putting all the rotten apples in the same sack. I know some people are immature and unreasonable, but there is nothing we can do about it. The fact that some criticism comes from idiots, that doesn't mean there is no valid criticism, and the same goes for the apologies. Some apologies are idiots as well.

As someone who has watched (and featured) in a lot of the videos and livestreams and Dev comments I'd say FDev have done their best to manage expectations based on observation of the feedback (or fallout).
They learnt from both the offline mode fallout and NMS "whoops" and started put the caveats in, look at the old dev videos, look at the kickstarter videos. Theres no caveats at all on those.

There was also a clear step change towards about 1.3 or 1.4 release. The Q&A's changed from "On the list for the future" to "No comment". If you want the best example of that look at the Lavecon 2016 Q&A (I asked one of the questions there).

Finally Dev updates. Being fair we can't 100% attribute this to the user reaction, the dev updates stopping could be for other reasons, but you can't deny it fits the story.


Overall yes I think we can totally attribute Frontiers gradually changing stance to others, the players and the people that give feedback. The evidence is there, there's a definite trend that they take feedback and change + adapt accordingly.


I get your post may have come across to me as more direct than you intended it but my honest fear is that they will again adapt from this and others and end up just ignoring our questions entirely. What if next they decided no more Q&As, no more announcements, no news until they are 100% certain it will happen. Probably announce it after the update goes live just to be sure there are no launch errors.

Yes I agree it's changed a lot and I agree we should be discussing and suggesting and making it known how much we want those other features. There was a PAX livestream that asked that exact question on Fri 9th March and the answer was that if multicrew is popular and well used they will add further functionality. It's not cut and dry finished this is multicrew.

I do agree and I do also want those additional features, but I disagree with the way you are asking for them. It comes across almost as demanding with the terminology you used. Again maybe not your intent but thats how I read it (maybe I'm jaded as you said ).
Yeah, maybe I responded a bit harshly, like I said you struck a bit of a nerve for me there so sorry for that.

I agree with you and Alex that things like this can put off some developers from providing more info, but I don't think fdev have ever really provided a great amount of info, so they don't have much to pull back from.

I think fdev could do what CIG did and open up everything, ignore the idiots and let the sensible ones provide feedback and points of view on future features.

Right now we don't know what's going to happen post 2.3, that's not becuase of posts like the OPs. Cloak and dagger has been the way ever since 1.0 landed.

Some of the kickstarter vids with DB talking about his vision for the game were pretty solid and detailed. They have gone less and less ever since launch and the offline mode "excuse me"

Totally worth a re-watch in the background even if they are 4-5 years old now.

I disagree. The reason FD don't say anything is because they can't deliver as we've seen time and time again. Now the OP was telling us what FD said was going to be in Horizons, specifically MC - did you read his post because it's right there.
OK so now we know 80% of MC won't see the light of day. Now when FDev announced MC it's my understanding they advertised all the bells and whistles and happily took your money. Now we get to where we are now and they're not delivering.
So this would be like ordering a pizza with 6 toppings and it turns up with 1 topping. When you ask why and point out you paid for it already the delivery guys says "Yeah sorry, we didn't have time to make it right so be happy with what you're given"
That is not acceptable behaviour. You might get away with that once but don't expect to keep any customers later.
As an aside, what the heck were they thinking when they thought they could code stuff in 3 months?!! This is the strabgest part of it all that FDev actually thought they could code these seasons in 3 months...

1) No you don't know that 80% of multicrew won't see the light of day. Could easily be added later. All we know now is they arn't in 2.3 release and we should be making the case for them to be added later.
2) No you didn't order a 6 topping pizza. You ordered a pizza that would contain meat and cheese, they said it may be a multi-cheese pizza and maybe will have pepperoni but all you got was salami and a standard cheese base and were disappointed.
Its still a meat and cheese pizza so you got exactly what you ordered but it didn't fulfil the "if's and maybe's and perhaps' "

They only announced headlines officially on the store page, You paid for this:

Spoiler

And any argument that says a livestream video saying it "may" include this or "possibly will include that" not even linked on the store is in any way indicative of a promise is just silly. No promises, no ETA's, just a "as developers we want to see this".
NMS was different because the exact words "It will have this at launch" were spoken repeatedly and in absolutes. Frontier had a similar issue with offline mode and offered refunds since they had explicitly said that Elite will have Offline mode at launch.

3) Who promised 3 months. They said back in 2015 when they were holding a 3-4 month update schedule that a season isn't necessarily a year.
I too am disappointed that the development has slowed and updates are more spread but again, there were no promises. Technically a complete "season" is 4 months as we have 4 seasons in the year (Summer/Spring/Winter/Autumn) but in software development that term now means whatever you want it to.

 

[Besensec]

many players will take any idea, or consideration, uttered by a developer, and assume it to be a statement of intent...

But that is what the sources I linked are, statements of intents. Tell me how they aren't. They are statements, and they state intentions. As for the rest of your post, every single point was already addressed in my thread. Since you didnt provide counter argument, but rather you simply stated the opposite, I take it as you didn't read the post, or you read it with no intention to understand it.

 

[Jex =TE=]

some players wonder why developers are becoming less and less forthcoming about their upcoming ideas, why they are more vague about current decision making within their game. this thread, and many others like it, are pretty much the crux of the problem. many players will take any idea, or consideration, uttered by a developer, and assume it to be a statement of intent, or commitment to implement. so when that particular idea isn't realised, or maybe done in a different way, those same players become vocal and make a scene about it.

the issue here is not the developer.. its the repetitive stream of those who cant understand, expressing a desire to do something, is not the same as confirming a decision to do it. i cant blame the developers, of any game, for becoming more withdrawn from their player base, its just too much hassle. saying that, i think the interaction we get from frontier is far better than most.

I don't know what's hard to grasp here. Let's look at one Dev and the extreme end of the scale - Happy Dayz, games, times... whatever..the guys that made No Mans Sky - should everyone have just shut up about that? No, and this is exactly along the same lines. We had a dev team saying what would be in the expansion and then we get the expansion and it's not delivered. In what reality are customers going to be happy about that?

You do know they're still advertising the game with footage that you can't even do, right?

So I think NMS was a wake up call to dev teams to make sure they don't make claims about their games about future content. If they stop dangling the carrot and taking our money then you know what, we'll stop raising it as an issue.

 

[Jex =TE=]

1) No you don't know that 80% of multicrew won't see the light of day. Could easily be added later
2) No you didn't order a 6 topping pizza. You ordered a pizza that would contain meat and cheese, they said it may be a multi-cheese pizza and maybe will have pepperoni but all you got was salami and were disappointed.

They only announced headlines officially on the store page, You paid for this:

Spoiler

View attachment 116847

And any argument that says a livestream video saying it "may" include this or "possibly will include that" not even linked on the store is in any way indicative of a promise is just silly. NMS was different because the exact words "It will have this at launch" were spoken repeatedly and in absolutes.

3) Who promised 3 months. They said back in 2015 that a season isn't necessarily a year. I too am disappointed that the development has slowed and updates are more spread but again, there were no promises. Technically a complete "season" is 4 months as we have 4 seasons in the year (Summer/Spring/Winter/Autumn) but in software development that term now means whatever you want it to.

Ok so you didn't read the OP. Go back and read it it has all the links with all the evidence the OP used for his post.

I don't think "it can easily be added later" because, again if you'd read the post, Sandro pointed out that only if MC is popular will the think about adding more features.

This in itself should worry everyone here. It shows that they don't think it's going to have very good uptake - "If it's popular"? "We might work on it"?

Can you stop using the "they'll work on it later" canard because that just doesn't happen. Evidence? The entire dev process to date. I'm done "hoping" to see something materialise. It's time FDev stuck with their original claim "We'll take our time and get it right" and actually

a) took their time and

b) got it right.

 

[Eymerich]

Hi everyone,

Development is a complex process. We tested and discussed some of the features that Adam mentioned and they either weren’t good from a gameplay perspective, or we simply weren't able to integrate them for technical and time reasons. I'm sure you understand that there was never any intention to deceive, only to do what’s best for the game. We did caveat it on the stream itself, too... unfortunately things change.

We like being as transparent as we possibly can be at FD. We like talking to you and telling you about the exciting things that we're working on! Sometimes that means that information changes, or you hear about things that then can't be implemented. I'll say it again, we like seeing the community get hyped, and thanks to your respect, excitement and understanding we're able to continue doing it!

Thanks for your answer.

As someone else before me, I think that you guys in Fd are very very talented.

I have said it more then once and I have written it: so you have all my respect.

But - and I thank the Op - I guess there are some problems in the development process.

Let's be fair: this isn't the first time (it happens in 2.1 for example) that we heard: "no resource, no time we have need delayed it".

Npc Multicrew was promised and was cut; Mc as it is now is... fun for the first 2 hours. When people understand they are going to do the same thing as they did in solo it will be abandoned as well.

From what I have heard we have:

- No future evolution of MC (neither npc which was promised);

- No future evolution of PP;

- Bad decision in dev time (seriously: Cqc was really needed?);

- Issue solved with sensible delay (I am referring to heat weapon);

- Exploration has not touched neither improved in 2 years;

True: there also have been game improvment along the last year.

But I wonder: do you really think that the upper points covers the expectation Fd created when offered Horizon on the market?

I am an Lep, so you have already my money: but to me the answer to the upper question is a definitly NO.

I hope Fd would consider this feedback too.

Kind Regard

Eymerich, alias Cloud Atlas

p.s. was forgetting: bring the Corvette the it's own original design: 2H 3L 2M

 

[Alex Brentnall]

Ok so you didn't read the OP. Go back and read it it has all the links with all the evidence the OP used for his post.

Classic. Yes I did, go up and you'll see I responded to it directly.

Can you stop using the "they'll work on it later" canard because that just doesn't happen. Evidence?

To take one that is quite recent: Camera suite


Checkmate!


Anyway neither of us are going to change our minds so I don't want to waste any more of your or my time. I've said what I wanted to and don't really care for the whole "go back and read it" bit. Have fun. Byee

 

[Jex =TE=]

Classic. Yes I did, go up and you'll see I responded to it directly.

Can you stop using the "they'll work on it later" canard because that just doesn't happen. Evidence?

To take one that is quite recent: Camera suite


Checkmate!


Anyway neither of us are going to change our minds so I don't want to waste any more of your or my time. I've said what I wanted to and don't really care for the whole "go back and read it" bit. Have fun. Byee

Ok well then it looks as though you didn't understand what was said but yeah, byee lol