This is not fair.

[Jack Schitt]

The station doesnt insta kill you. You get a count down timer asking you to leave the system.

That doesn't seem like a bad idea on the surface, and would make more sense in lore than having stations go full Tarkin on speeding ships laden with passengers just because someone nudged them with a rustbucket. The problem is that this could effectively ban people from a lucrative CG system, or from their own favourite system, or from the cheap outfitters at at Li Rong-Yu control system, or from Jameson Memorial, for the duration of the bounty. Wanted players could try to stealth their way back in, which might be fun for some, but they would be open to player attack outside the NFZ.

In the case of a CG, this would move the ram-induced "penalty" from a multi-million credit rebuy to a multi-million credit loss of earnings which is effectively the same thing, perhaps even larger in the case of a trade CG. The rammers don't get to record a ship immediately exploding under station guns, which might change the psychological reward a little, but I don't think it would actually stop this behaviour. In fact a new meta could emerge, with station rammers forcing bounties onto players then passing the CMDR name on to their friends in supercruise, waiting for the now wanted target to return to the system for an easy interdiction and profitable, legal kill.

IF Player1=Clean AND Harmless AND Credits<5000 AND Gametime<120minutes AND Speed>99 = SAMEPOSITION Player2 AND Player2=Wanted OR >Harmless AND Credits<5000 AND Gametime<120minutes AND Speed<=99 THEN LET Stationtarget=Player2

I've tried to parse that a couple of times but I think it needs some parentheses! I think what you're saying is that the game should use some metrics (rank vs balance, time since last death) to try to spot shenanigans so it can pop the aggressor rather than the victim. I like it, but the problem with rules is that people with agendas tend to learn what those rules are and play right up against the limits.

Anything would be a better attempt than the nothing at all that FD have done for the past few months, but I'm not convinced there's a solution using only existing data. Or maybe I've just missed the point and the answer is right there in all the Boolean that my brain is refusing to process properly first thing in the morning.

 

[bitstorm]

IF Player1=Clean AND Harmless AND Credits<5000 AND Gametime<120minutes AND Speed>99 = SAMEPOSITION Player2 AND Player2=Wanted OR >Harmless AND Credits<5000 AND Gametime<120minutes AND Speed<=99 THEN LET Stationtarget=Player2

I've tried to parse that a couple of times but I think it needs some parentheses! I think what you're saying is that the game should use some metrics (rank vs balance, time since last death) to try to spot shenanigans so it can pop the aggressor rather than the victim. I like it, but the problem with rules is that people with agendas tend to learn what those rules are and play right up against the limits.

It would not pass code review!

Hmm I do not understand why both p1 and p2 both have to have less than 5000 credits, or why rank and gametime is important?

All I can think is it might be (incorrectly) trying to infer a suicidewinder?


Always thought giving the station super huge rapid fire class 5 non-lethal force shell cannons could be good!

Essentially just area denial, g.t.f.o!

Sure could still be exploited but it'd be much more fun. And you'd get some great community events out of it.

 

[Darkfyre99]

That doesn't seem like a bad idea on the surface, and would make more sense in lore than having stations go full Tarkin on speeding ships laden with passengers just because someone nudged them with a rustbucket. The problem is that this could effectively ban people from a lucrative CG system, or from their own favourite system, or from the cheap outfitters at at Li Rong-Yu control system, or from Jameson Memorial, for the duration of the bounty. Wanted players could try to stealth their way back in, which might be fun for some, but they would be open to player attack outside the NFZ.

In the case of a CG, this would move the ram-induced "penalty" from a multi-million credit rebuy to a multi-million credit loss of earnings which is effectively the same thing, perhaps even larger in the case of a trade CG. The rammers don't get to record a ship immediately exploding under station guns, which might change the psychological reward a little, but I don't think it would actually stop this behaviour. In fact a new meta could emerge, with station rammers forcing bounties onto players then passing the CMDR name on to their friends in supercruise, waiting for the now wanted target to return to the system for an easy interdiction and profitable, legal kill.


I've tried to parse that a couple of times but I think it needs some parentheses! I think what you're saying is that the game should use some metrics (rank vs balance, time since last death) to try to spot shenanigans so it can pop the aggressor rather than the victim. I like it, but the problem with rules is that people with agendas tend to learn what those rules are and play right up against the limits.

Anything would be a better attempt than the nothing at all that FD have done for the past few months, but I'm not convinced there's a solution using only existing data. Or maybe I've just missed the point and the answer is right there in all the Boolean that my brain is refusing to process properly first thing in the morning.

There is only one solution to the problem of chronic jerks, and that is a more robust crime and punishment system, with a karma (aka "being a jerk") meter. Jerkish behavior increases your karma, and time decreases it. As your karma increases, you start losing access to station services, starting from high-security stations, until they're only available at anarchy systems. As your karma gets even higher, you start becoming "shoot on sight," starting with high-security systems, until only anarchy systems are left.

Travelling at high speeds near a station is IMO borderline jerkish behavior, regardless of the reason you're doing so, so any collision would increase your karma, regardless of who's at "fault." Because, quite frankly, there's plenty of fault to go around. However, unless you're in the habit of deliberately ramming people at speed around stations, or indulge in other jerkish behavior, you're not going to be penalized.

It won't stop this kind of activity, but IMO it would slow it down quite a bit, just as the introduction of the speed limit slowed down the rates of ramming attacks near stations in the first place.

 

[Imo]

Do not fly in open. That's all about it.

 

[Susanna]

Ive had my ship rammed to death before even though i was Auto Docking (so not speeding).

Its doesnt matter.

Trolls gotta troll.

One question comes to mind re the DC...it can excess the 100m/s speed limit while within the no fire zone. If this is the case, it no protection from this kind of activity in Open...

- - - Updated - - -

What happens if you are doing the smuggling CG, don't you have to speed to avoid the scan?

Don't speed get scanned? Speed get ganked? Awesome.

I agree... A conflict of interests.

- - - Updated - - -

Speed is not the only method, stealth works in this game if used correctly.

Ah, the silent running method. Not sure that would work on a Cutter but worth a go I guess.

- - - Updated - - -

i saw a certain wanted commander in a shieldless eagle with 5% hull waiting at the mailslot at the last CG. so i proceeded to ram him to death at 99 m/s, then type into local chat "i got 99 problems but a bich aint one". good times were had by all.

Nicely Done! Repped!

 

[Zeeman]

Exactly this. Once a player is aware of how the system works, why not just obey the speed limit and gank the ganker? People speeding into crowded stations are their own worst enemy.

On the other hand, anyone who​ fly's a Corvette without a rebuy deserves what they get.

Perhaps because they're smuggling? Or in a hurry due to a time limit?

So easy for folks to be smug and be all "don't speed and you'll be worry free", but flying fast through the letterbox and avoiding collisions is one thing, being targeted and rammed is another. As I've mentioned (in a modded post because clearly, some delicate petals do not understand the difference between called a numpty, and being told they are acting like one), I don't really care, I dock in 50 seconds or less i my Anaconda form 7.5km out, and about 30 in my smuggler AspX, and I've yet to rammed - because I know how to read my scanners, and I am aware of my environment. Still doesn't make station rammers any better...

Z...

As mentioned before,

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

Fly at or below 100 m/s when on the final approach, It really isn't that hard. The station only fires on you because you are above the speed limit when the collision occurs, even if the collision wasn't your fault.

This. They tell you to slow down, you don't, someone rams you when you are above the speed limit. I see no issues. Go below 100ms and there would be no issue. Working as intended.

 

[Tataboj]

You won't get banned for one reported combat log, I'm sure of that.

 

[stormyuk]

There is only one solution to the problem of chronic jerks, and that is a more robust crime and punishment system, with a karma (aka "being a jerk") meter. Jerkish behavior increases your karma, and time decreases it. As your karma increases, you start losing access to station services, starting from high-security stations, until they're only available at anarchy systems. As your karma gets even higher, you start becoming "shoot on sight," starting with high-security systems, until only anarchy systems are left.

Sounds like an excellent idea, I guess the "jerks" wouldn't like that though.

 

[bitstorm]

There is only one solution to the problem of chronic jerks, and that is a more robust crime and punishment system, with a karma (aka "being a jerk") meter. Jerkish behavior increases your karma, and time decreases it.

This is fine in theory but the issue here is determining fault.

The victim here would lose karma.

If anything in this scenario it would just make things worse for the victim.

You can come up with all sorts of ways to punish jerks that's easy, the difficult part is figuring out who the jerk is.

 

[verminstar]

Without reading through all 9 pages...those are the rules of open play which is why some of us avoid open entirely. That mentality, not the loss which was the ops own fault fer reasons almost certainly covered after 9 pages...that childish mentality is what I would avoid. But each to their own I suppose ^

 

[Susanna]

Oddly enough, I just got my ship destroyed at a station.

I was just on my way out when a Cutter loomed up right across the exit.
I was actually through the mail-slot and in the toast rack when he appeared, got snagged on it and blocked it completely.
I hit reverse and was feeling quite pleased with myself for managing to avoid getting involved in his crash.

For about 5 seconds.

Then I get a fine for "trespassing" inside the station.
Then I get a warning to leave the station... which I couldn't do because there was a Cutter tangled up in the toast rack.
And then there was laser-fire, explosions and a re-buy screen. [blah]

ROFL... I can so visualise this situation happening to me too!

 

[Mendaharin Tusca]

Yeah, I don't think we're using the same definition of exploit. To me, an exploit is something that isn't working the way developers intended. For instance, skimmer kills used to count for conflict zones massacre missions, and this was heavily abused in 17 Draconis. It was an exploit because those weren't the intended targets for the missions, and they fixed it.

In this case, the rules are simple: If you ram a ship when over 100m/s, you get a fine and if the other ship dies, you get a bounty. This was placed to prevent people from ramming ships, as it's been stated before by me and other people in this thread. It is working as intended and thus it isn't an exploit, even if some people find some "creative" uses of this mechanic.

Now this is just semantics. Feels like you're just being stubborn for the heck of it.

 

[huehnerfaust]

could it not just be like:

If (player1.speed > 100 && player2.speed > 100)
{
// no repercussion, it counts as an accident, both get there insurrance cost paid
return null;
}

To easy? When we ever should get a c&p system, i hope it is as simple as possible. Otherwise, i fear the chances of using such a system against one each other will cause even more grief.

 

[Ian Skippy]

could it not just be like:

If (player1.speed > 100 && player2.speed > 100)
{
// no repercussion, it counts as an accident, both get there insurrance cost paid
return null;
}

To easy? When we ever should get a c&p system, i hope it is as simple as possible. Otherwise, i fear the chances of using such a system against one each other will cause even more grief.

What we currently have is easier. I cant believe this is an issue. OP lost more time typing here than if he had just flown below speed limit at cgs.

If you dont want to stick to the rules, thats perfectly fine. But please dont whine about how unfair it is when stuff happens that is 100% under your control, even more so if you know how it works.

- - - Updated - - -

This is fine in theory but the issue here is determining fault.

The victim here would lose karma.

If anything in this scenario it would just make things worse for the victim.

You can come up with all sorts of ways to punish jerks that's easy, the difficult part is figuring out who the jerk is.

The poor victim here broke the limit, endangering people in small ships. Bad karma. Just as IRL, our crimes are okay, and others shoukd be punished harshly.

 

[Red Anders]

I sincerely hope at this point both of you are working in tandem just to play a trick on me, because this is moving past the point of "Ponderous, man, PONDEROUS!" to utter disbelief on my part.

Since the mods are clearly reaching their patience threshold and the rest of your post suggests our opinions about this topic vary so significantly that continuing to discuss is is likely to achieve nothing, I'll just confirm that no I'm not actually working in tandem with another poster to troll you.

FDev introduced a mechanic to prevent people from being rammed to death when docking. It works perfectly as long as players obey a clearly signposted instruction to fly below 100 m/s.

Some players choose not to do that. Your contention is that those players are not in fact responsible for the results of their own choices and actions. You may not think that's what you're saying but it is.

You are mistaken.

The fact someone else agrees with that doesn't make the pair of us (and others) trolls. It makes us people who understand that when something is deliberately created to help players avoid a problem, it's probably a good idea to use the mechanic. I have to reiterate one more time that I think players who exploit the speed limit are clowns but that's not what's important. What's important is that it doesn't matter what anybody else does, as long as YOU fly below 100 m/s you will never be a victim. Not once. So people are deliberately refusing to use the protection mechanic that was introduced for their benefit.

I have zero sympathy for those players because they are the architects of their own misfortune.

 

[VR StarLightPL]

2. Then I get a fine for "trespassing" inside the station.
3. Then I get a warning to leave the station... which I couldn't do because there was a Cutter tangled up in the toast rack.
4. And then there was laser-fire, explosions and a re-buy screen. [blah]

For future reference, at step 2 (at most at step 3) you should:
* break immersion, realize that it's a bug in the game,
* hit esc,
* select exit to main menu, confirm,
* resume playing in the same station on the landing pad, pay the small fine and be done with it

As for the OP. I have a question to all "git gudders" and "law-obidders":

How do you tell docking computer not to speed?

Because you still get false warnings about docking computer speeding and no, it's not because FDev programmed them to not obey the limit. Its probably because they "forgot" about engineered ships and the algorithm does only account for stock engines? Or they simply forgot about DC entirely when implementing this measure.

OP: IDK how short you were from rebuy, but if it happens, you can earn money in CQC besides the main game while the main ship is in "rebuy state". By the way, if that was advertised more, perhaps CQC wouldn't be the desolate desert it currently is.

And comments about karma shows just what is wrong with all C&P SJWs, because there is no incentive to being either a villain or a lawful good paladin. All you want to do is "punish the villain" while offering nothing in return. By the way "karma" is not one sided, it is just a measure of one's own actions. And we all know that villains in real life do tend to swim in luxury if they succeed at their wrongdoings, at the cost of being caught. But enough of this thread hijacking.

Solution:
1. Integrate DC to all ships' computers (lotsa other threads why it's silly not being so).
2. Make it obey the speed limits at all times when engaged.
3. Manual docking available by disabling the DC, same speed limits apply.

Result - the only time you would be griefed if you manually landed and didn't control the speed on manual approach.

And I agree that the griefwinder is a gray area bordering on a real exploit. In "reality" traffic control would spot that behaviour and ignore the twerp who suicided into one another. Now who posted the neat idea of "worthy" players manning the station guns?

 

[bitstorm]

The poor victim here broke the limit, endangering people in small ships. Bad karma. Just as IRL, our crimes are okay, and others shoukd be punished harshly.

Aye I totally see that.

It's just the discussion seems to be about the actual game rules vs the spirit of the game rules.

Folk are arguing that Frontier should implement a system that enforces the "spirit", this is no easy task. Certainly not the one-liner people seems to keep saying it is.

 

[SnowyNI]

Hi there.

I may be hanging myself out to dry here...but this really bugged me tonight and is still bugging me now.

There was an incident just now at this weeks CG at Carlisle staion. I was about to dock,cash in some hard earned bounties when a player, with no shields,deliberatly crashed into me, killing himself and making me wanted, so the station would kill me as i tried to dock. This is an ongoing issue that happens regulary among players. Its been happening for a long time. I see this at almost EVERY CG. I noticed on my radar that he was coming in fast and was heading right for me.So i locked on - a clean dbx. but before i could move, bam, then the staion opens up on me. ive been caught this way twice before,(spread out over 2 years, and about a year appart)still though- costing me millions, ( i fly a corvette) 25 million. i did not have enough for a rebuy because id just been stung the night before.I normally would never fly without a rebuy and was actually going to dock and store the ship untill i had the money..... So.. i logged off. I know its against TOS to combat log...but this was NOT COMBAT. The reason im posting this is because when i came back to open the player said he recorded the incident and is going to report me and send in the video to try and get me banned. My handle in game is Electric Kite.

So not only was this guy content with trying to get the station to kill me for no good reason other than "lolz" (and some may call this griefing,) he then wanted to get me permanently removed from the game because his little plan didnt work out for him?

Is this the player base we are fostering now? What the hell is going on?

I swore a bunch at him, im not proud, but i was so annoyed because he was so hell bent on getting me mad and trying to ruin my game i had no other way to react but swear at him. A lot. Not my proudest moment.

I guess..i just wanted to share..video games..when they are good..they are great...but tonight? I honestly felt like i never sat down to play elite.

So well done that guy. o7 [up]

Fdev left open to the eveites and have let them run a'muck with ramming, exploits, hacks and other tos breaking stunts. It quickly became a cesspit and still is because fdev are too scared to wash it out cause that would mean loosing a few players and that means sales! £££!!!
But sooner or later they'll drive ever normal person away and like a good carrion, they'll move on and eat up some other game (SC seems to be the next target, I smelt their stench on it's forums not so long ago!).

 

[Ian Skippy]

Aye I totally see that.

It's just the discussion seems to be about the actual game rules vs the spirit of the game rules.

Folk are arguing that Frontier should implement a system that enforces the "spirit", this is no easy task. Certainly not the one-liner people seems to keep saying it is.

True. As a general rule of thumb 'trolls' will always find a way to be annoying in a way an automated script wont pick up on easy. Its just wishful thinking. Which makes it all the weirder that we have this discussion about a specific kind of trolling that is 100% preventable, easy as pie, and clearly understood by the OP. We dont need FD to fix this for us, people need to take some responsibility for their own choices. You want to risk your entire ship because it saves you a few seconds? When you know this is exactly the place where that gamble might pay off? Okay, your choice...