General / Off-Topic Are we brexiting?

[Trinity Star]

As I said, the "Remoaner" tag doesn't bother me, but it does say something about the person making it.

Are the 16million of us who think this is a bad idea supposed to shut up and not say it's a bad idea?

To put the boot on the other foot, if the result had been the exact opposite would the Brexiteers shrug and go "well that's the will of the people, we think it's a bad idea to stay in the EU but we'll not say another word"? I think not.

"Remoaner" suggests that the person saying it thinks that opposition is a bad thing.

If the UK decided to return NI to the RoI I very much doubt you'd stop moaning about it, you've moaned about the situation there and your perception that it is unfair against "your people" plenty of times.

We don't have long to wait now, on the 29th the article 50 letter will be sent and we can all wait and see if the promises of the Brexiteers come true or turn out to be a load of bull.

my money's on the latter

Well no but looking at the latest posts on this thread seems some have descended to 'well lets just ban people from voting in future'.

Also if the situation was reversed and 17m have voted to stay would you even think twice about it after that?

 

[FuzzySpider]

Well no but looking at the latest posts on this thread seems some have descended to 'well lets just ban people from voting in future'.

Then some should read such posts more carefully.

Also if the situation was reversed and 17m have voted to stay would you even think twice about it after that?

The lies, rants, and xenophobia towards Europe have been going on for decades at this point. Do you really think "People who want to stay should just shut up about it" will wash?

 

[Minonian]

There is a thing called confession trough denial (with) silence. You admit nothing, but?
I wonder, TM's silence falls into this category? I think it does...

 

[Sunleader]

You nailed it. Incidentally this is the official doctrine in Russia, which explains a lot of Putin's seemingly self-destructive actions. A strong, coherent and prosperous EU is bad (for him), because even if that benefits Russia and Russians in absolute terms, that means that Russia is relatively weaker.

For Fairness Said.
Putin is not that Destructive for most Part.

Thing most People Fail to Understand that Putin is Nationalist. He goes by the Doctrine Russia First.
So he wont Support anything that is not Benefitting Russia more than it does the others.

This is why all Western Politics towards him are Doomed to Fail. As you cant do profitable Business with Russia. Unless your giving a good Share of it to Russia itself.
But its also why I aint scared of War with Russia.
Because Putin is neither Stupid nor a Warmonger.

Hes simply and completely rationale and Nationalistic.
He will do whatever he thinks Benefits Russia the most.
And a War with the West in which he knows nobody will Win anyways. Is just not going into that Doctrine.
Which is why he wont go to War with the West regardless of all his threats.

Its the same on Espionage.
He does not consider this an Attack.
For him its Obvious that everyone Spies on each other to Benefit his own Country and have Advantages.
Its like two Merchants haggling with each other.
Just the normal thing.



Merkel having a good read simply comes from her knowing this Pragmatic Doctrine.
She works by an somewhat more Liberal Variant of it.
But you Notice her Pragmatic Doctrine of just doing whats needed silently is essentially the Same.





I would Disagree on one thing here due to that.
For Russia.
An Stronger EU is not 100% a Bad thing.
And Putin is likely Eyeing that Option as well.

Because the EU posing a third Power and thus Upsetting the Balance is in Putins Interest.
An EU which is a Super State but due to its Buerocracy pretty slow and not very likely to make any Aggressive Movements.
Is much better than that Fractured EU on which the very Aggressive USA hold alot of Influence as they are Influencing Single Countries inside it.


I take Bets.
In the current Situation with the EU going more and more against the USA thanks to Donald Trump.
If Putin got the Chance to emphasize good Relations with the EU.
He would go for it.

The USA so readily sending massive amounts of Troops to the Eastern Borders lately.
Has nothing to do with the Ukraine or something.
Thats already long ago anyways.

The USA Sending these Troops serves one simple thing.
Make sure that Russia does not make any Attempts on getting Friends with the EU.


The American Nightmare. Is Germany and France siding with Russia instead of siding with the USA.
And the EU Uniting and Siding with Russia is likely the worst Alp they ever considered.

So for an United EU. The Biggest Danger is likely not in the East.
Its in the West.

- - - Updated - - -

Nope, I don't know that.

I agree that France is an important nation in Europe, but I disagree that it should get an advantage or that it is the only "country of light, human rights and freedom, equality and fraternity" in Europe.

Well.
Its a Typical Case of Nationalism on Patrick.
I am not Surprised at all at this.

The "We are the Master Race" Argument is Strong in the Fascists.
If there was an France First Party He would vote for it.

Because thats just how People like him work.
Its the Big Reason why Imperialists and Nationalists hate the EU.

The EU is about Equality.
About Equal Rights and Duties.

But the Idea that a Strong Nation like France or Britain. Should have to be set on the same Rights and Duties as Luxembourg or Belgium which they could Wipe off the Maps easily.
Is just not Acceptable to them.

Its just not fitting their Perspective on the World.

 

[Ian Skippy]

Well, if France leaves the European Union, the European Union will no longer exist. But do not worry. It will not happen

I am more woried that you guys come begging for our money, to be honest. I think more and more people in the more productive nations are getting a bit tired with the combination of arrogance + incompetence of France.

 

[Fyrd Judge]

The EU turns a blind eye to Europe’s Hitler nostalgia celebrations and goes out to inform countries not to say a thing. In Lithuania and Latvia, SS veterans have been honored as heroes over the last few weeks. A Lithuanian court ruled that Swastikas were exempt from THE banning laws and allowed people to fly the flag. Latvia’s president Andris Berzins reportedly praised the SS veterans on Latvian television last week, “It’s crazy to think they’re war criminals.” he says. !!!!!!!!!!!

Ukraine has the same problem and the EU says nothing and goes all out to support these countries, while promoting fake threats from Russia AND 90% of the EU population, the sheep, choose to ignore it. The only one loudly pointing a finger at them is Russia. Most the world now regards the EU as a toilet and not surprising when you watch some EU states openly celebrating Hitlers SS.

http://www.salon.com/2012/04/02/eastern_europes_hitler_nostalgia/

The eu xenophobics 60th anniversary party today and some states are flying the Swastika to mark the day. ahhhh how nice.

The new EU flag, The Toilet.

 

[Becks]

The EU turns a blind eye to Europe’s Hitler nostalgia celebrations and goes out to inform countries not to say a thing. In Lithuania and Latvia, SS veterans have been honored as heroes over the last few weeks. A Lithuanian court ruled that Swastikas were exempt from THE banning laws and allowed people to fly the flag. Latvia’s president Andris Berzins reportedly praised the SS veterans on Latvian television last week, “It’s crazy to think they’re war criminals.” he says. !!!!!!!!!!!

Ukraine has the same problem and the EU says nothing and goes all out to support these countries, while promoting fake threats from Russia AND 90% of the EU population, the sheep, choose to ignore it. The only one loudly pointing a finger at them is Russia. Most the world now regards the EU as a toilet and not surprising when you watch some EU states openly celebrating Hitlers SS.

http://www.salon.com/2012/04/02/eastern_europes_hitler_nostalgia/

The eu xenophobics 60th anniversary today and some states are flying the Swastika to mark the day. ahhhh how nice.

Have you read to many turkish news?

 

[Minonian]

Nah! The usual thing what he reads the anti EU .

Poor trolley want to "dance", and that cannot be done without partner. Otherwise? hard to get anywhere right?

 

[Sunleader]

Well, if France leaves the European Union, the European Union will no longer exist. But do not worry. It will not happen

Unlikely.
Even if France Left.
The smaller Nations will not leave.
Especially not Belgium, Luxembourg etc.

Actually then even less. Cause staying with Germany is an Guarantee of Security and Wealth for them.
In absolute worst case. And alot of Nations leaving the EU.
You would likely have an Eastern Core remaining.

Being the Nations around Germany and Scandinavia.

The EU turns a blind eye to Europe’s Hitler nostalgia celebrations and goes out to inform countries not to say a thing. In Lithuania and Latvia, SS veterans have been honored as heroes over the last few weeks. A Lithuanian court ruled that Swastikas were exempt from THE banning laws and allowed people to fly the flag. Latvia’s president Andris Berzins reportedly praised the SS veterans on Latvian television last week, “It’s crazy to think they’re war criminals.” he says. !!!!!!!!!!!

Ukraine has the same problem and the EU says nothing and goes all out to support these countries, while promoting fake threats from Russia AND 90% of the EU population, the sheep, choose to ignore it. The only one loudly pointing a finger at them is Russia. Most the world now regards the EU as a toilet and not surprising when you watch some EU states openly celebrating Hitlers SS.

http://www.salon.com/2012/04/02/eastern_europes_hitler_nostalgia/

The eu xenophobics 60th anniversary today and some states are flying the Swastika to mark the day. ahhhh how nice.

Is it that Strange to you ?
Be it some African Colonies or the Baltic States.

Of course to alot of People the SS and the Wehrmacht was Oppressors and Terrible Occupants.
But to those who were Oppressed and Occupied before Germany Invaded. They were Saviors and Heroes.


If you were Abused and treated like a Slave, an Animal with no Rights only existing to serve your Colonial (or in case of the Baltics the Occupying) Power.
Then you dont care as much about what your Savior looks like.
You only care that he kicked the other guys out of your Country.


Thats why up to this Day.
Alot of the Territories which before WW2 were Colonies of France or Britain. Are far more Forgiving of German Atrocities than most People in the West.
Because they reclaimed their Independence by it.

This also goes for some Baltic Region and even some Balkan Areas.



Its ridiculous.
Cause if they had not been Freed from the Soviets before.
Germany would just have Invaded and Occupied them anyways.

But History is a Strange thing.
It goes very strange ways sometimes.

So Germany ended up their Savior.
And Germany of course welcomed additional Manpower.
And for the German Government presenting themselves as Heroes and Saviors via Propaganda is much much easier. Than suppressing the Occupied Territories with massive Military Force.
So they played that Card right away.


I guess you never asked yourself why Finland and Sweden dont consider Germany that Bad.
Or why Norway hated you just as much as they hated Germany


Albeit. I think I explained often enough to you. That Britain being the Savior of Freedom is an ridiculous Story that only the Brits themselves belief. And even among them there is those who have long opened the eyes to the Truth.

 

[Minonian]

The EU turns a blind eye to Europe’s Hitler nostalgia celebrations and goes out to inform countries not to say a thing. In Lithuania and Latvia, SS veterans have been honored as heroes over the last few weeks. A Lithuanian court ruled that Swastikas were exempt from THE banning laws and allowed people to fly the flag. Latvia’s president Andris Berzins reportedly praised the SS veterans on Latvian television last week, “It’s crazy to think they’re war criminals.” he says. !!!!!!!!!!!

Ukraine has the same problem and the EU says nothing and goes all out to support these countries, while promoting fake threats from Russia AND 90% of the EU population, the sheep, choose to ignore it. The only one loudly pointing a finger at them is Russia. Most the world now regards the EU as a toilet and not surprising when you watch some EU states openly celebrating Hitlers SS.

http://www.salon.com/2012/04/02/eastern_europes_hitler_nostalgia/

The eu xenophobics 60th anniversary party today and some states are flying the Swastika to mark the day. ahhhh how nice.

The new EU flag, The Toilet.
http://i.imgur.com/M2rwP0A.png

Shhh! My common sense tingling!

 

[Moonax IRL]

Well on this side of the irish sea, there was a recent vote to decide our immediate future...a vote I did not take part in because I have lost all faith in politicians. Its ok though as Im very close to the result I wanted.

By not voting, either of two things happen. Voter apathy in which case the result isnt valid, or unionist apathy in which case the DUP lose their stormont majority and lose their ability to use the petition of concern to block certain votes from even happening. I got the latter which means my ideal outcome of going back to direct rule from london is tantalizingly close because neither side can agree on the way forward.

Not moaning about it anymore becauseI got exactly what I wanted which is the best of a bad situation. Direct rule was the one thing republicans did not want so Im happy with the result of not voting. They pushing fer a border poll but thats already been ruled out by both the british and irish governments, so handing us back to the free staters aint gonna happen anytime soon. Nobody gets what they want and we turn the clocks back 30 years, but it ensures our survival and turfs the liars outta stormont to live like the rest of us. Thats a win situation on its own.

If the name bothers ye that much then I suppose Ill have to stop using it, even though the context of it was directed at fuzzy as thats really all he does...moan, and drop innuendos about our level of intelligence, we are racist xenophobes etc etc etc...

Maybe on reflection, I should just mute the guy instead of rising to his trollish manner at all ^

Now that the shock of Sinn Fein`s success has sunk in, I see loyalism has moved from wetting itself and depression to self delusion. Don`t think for a second that Irish nationalism/republicanism is in any rush to return to Stormont. They are quiet happy to deal with London over the heads of the DUP troglodytes with the Irish government supporting them. There will be equality for all enforced in the North and an Irish language Act brought into being with bilingual signs, documentation etc for all as in the rest of Ireland. It may have escaped the slow learners of unionism but Sinn Fein were the moderates in the process, the nationalist vote made it clearly known that they wanted the DUP corruption & arrogance ended and Sinn Fein duly did so. Consequently they were rewarded with a huge increase in support. The demographic time bomb is already unwinding the northern statlet, which is going to get a whole lot greener over the next few years. In Belfast Irish nationalism is now the dominant force and getting stronger, the next election will see an Irish nationalist majority, where the British government will have no option but to have a border poll on request as per the international agreement that is the GFA. Unionism/loyalism is still reeling and is in a state of denial, Irish nationalism is quiet happy to let unionism stick its head in the sand as per it usual ostrich like pose. In the meantime the clock is ticking till the inevitable, I believe we will see a united Ireland within the next decade at the latest.

 

[Moonax IRL]

The EU turns a blind eye to Europe’s Hitler nostalgia celebrations and goes out to inform countries not to say a thing. In Lithuania and Latvia, SS veterans have been honored as heroes over the last few weeks. A Lithuanian court ruled that Swastikas were exempt from THE banning laws and allowed people to fly the flag. Latvia’s president Andris Berzins reportedly praised the SS veterans on Latvian television last week, “It’s crazy to think they’re war criminals.” he says. !!!!!!!!!!!

Ukraine has the same problem and the EU says nothing and goes all out to support these countries, while promoting fake threats from Russia AND 90% of the EU population, the sheep, choose to ignore it. The only one loudly pointing a finger at them is Russia. Most the world now regards the EU as a toilet and not surprising when you watch some EU states openly celebrating Hitlers SS.

http://www.salon.com/2012/04/02/eastern_europes_hitler_nostalgia/

The eu xenophobics 60th anniversary party today and some states are flying the Swastika to mark the day. ahhhh how nice.

The new EU flag, The Toilet.
http://i.imgur.com/M2rwP0A.png

I`m sure you would be just as vocal to condemn Cromwell and Churchill, after all logic would dictate that mass murder is mass murder and both were guilty of it, or do you believe some lives are worth more than others.

 

[FuzzySpider]

The EU turns a blind eye to Europe’s Hitler nostalgia celebrations and goes out to inform countries not to say a thing. In Lithuania and Latvia, SS veterans have been honored as heroes over the last few weeks. A Lithuanian court ruled that Swastikas were exempt from THE banning laws and allowed people to fly the flag. Latvia’s president Andris Berzins reportedly praised the SS veterans on Latvian television last week, “It’s crazy to think they’re war criminals.” he says. !!!!!!!!!!!

Ukraine has the same problem and the EU says nothing and goes all out to support these countries, while promoting fake threats from Russia AND 90% of the EU population, the sheep, choose to ignore it. The only one loudly pointing a finger at them is Russia. Most the world now regards the EU as a toilet and not surprising when you watch some EU states openly celebrating Hitlers SS.

http://www.salon.com/2012/04/02/eastern_europes_hitler_nostalgia/

The eu xenophobics 60th anniversary party today and some states are flying the Swastika to mark the day. ahhhh how nice.

The new EU flag, The Toilet.
http://i.imgur.com/M2rwP0A.png

People have been complaining that Brexiteers are being labeled ignorant, uneducated, xenophobic, etc.

Now whilst that may not be the truth posts like yours do not do a great deal to deconstruct that impression.

 

[verminstar]

Now that the shock of Sinn Fein`s success has sunk in, I see loyalism has moved from wetting itself and depression to self delusion. Don`t think for a second that Irish nationalism/republicanism is in any rush to return to Stormont. They are quiet happy to deal with London over the heads of the DUP troglodytes with the Irish government supporting them. There will be equality for all enforced in the North and an Irish language Act brought into being with bilingual signs, documentation etc for all as in the rest of Ireland. It may have escaped the slow learners of unionism but Sinn Fein were the moderates in the process, the nationalist vote made it clearly known that they wanted the DUP corruption & arrogance ended and Sinn Fein duly did so. Consequently they were rewarded with a huge increase in support. The demographic time bomb is already unwinding the northern statlet, which is going to get a whole lot greener over the next few years. In Belfast Irish nationalism is now the dominant force and getting stronger, the next election will see an Irish nationalist majority, where the British government will have no option but to have a border poll on request as per the international agreement that is the GFA. Unionism/loyalism is still reeling and is in a state of denial, Irish nationalism is quiet happy to let unionism stick its head in the sand as per it usual ostrich like pose. In the meantime the clock is ticking till the inevitable, I believe we will see a united Ireland within the next decade at the latest.

Ye must have missed the bit where I said the DUP have lost support within their own constituancies. Republicans only gained ground because many of us refused to support either the DUP or the UUP...SF getting a better result was by design, not because their popularity surged all of a sudden. But no doubt, ye believe otherwise.

I also agree with yer sentiment that thye DUP are the most corrupt party unionism has ever had representing us...but no doubt ye will continue with the ranting about this n that because thats the way bigots think.

Unionism isnt in shock because they lost the majority vote, they are in shock because traditionalists have turned to not voting at all, and they dont know how to deal with that. Were the vote fer anything else like a border poll, its likely that unionism would have kept the majority vote. But this wasnt what that election was about and all calls from repiblicans fer a border poll have been flatly rejected by both the british and irish governments with the reason that now is simply not the time.

Hardly being very supportive of yer cause right now are they?

Some of us actually did do the republican cause more good than harm...we self harmed in order to send a clear message to our politicians that they arent doing a very good job. Ye can attempt to take credit and start yer rhetoric about a united irelnad all ye want, but yer actually further away now than what ye were while stormont had a working executive. The only way sf would have any chance of getting a border poll would be if the executive was up and running which currently, its not. Ye think the dup not backing down is a coincidence? Tell me, why do ye think they now cant back down? If they do, and accept the SF deal, we push their cause forward 20 years...if we collapse the executive and go to direct rule, we send the entire process 20 years into the past.

As thingsstand, thats the best of a bad situation...it will hurt us but the trade off is it will hurt republicanism more ^

 

[Moonax IRL]

Ye must have missed the bit where I said the DUP have lost support within their own constituancies. Republicans only gained ground because many of us refused to support either the DUP or the UUP...SF getting a better result was by design, not because their popularity surged all of a sudden. But no doubt, ye believe otherwise.

I also agree with yer sentiment that thye DUP are the most corrupt party unionism has ever had representing us...but no doubt ye will continue with the ranting about this n that because thats the way bigots think.

Unionism isnt in shock because they lost the majority vote, they are in shock because traditionalists have turned to not voting at all, and they dont know how to deal with that. Were the vote fer anything else like a border poll, its likely that unionism would have kept the majority vote. But this wasnt what that election was about and all calls from repiblicans fer a border poll have been flatly rejected by both the british and irish governments with the reason that now is simply not the time.

Hardly being very supportive of yer cause right now are they?

Some of us actually did do the republican cause more good than harm...we self harmed in order to send a clear message to our politicians that they arent doing a very good job. Ye can attempt to take credit and start yer rhetoric about a united irelnad all ye want, but yer actually further away now than what ye were while stormont had a working executive. The only way sf would have any chance of getting a border poll would be if the executive was up and running which currently, its not. Ye think the dup not backing down is a coincidence? Tell me, why do ye think they now cant back down? If they do, and accept the SF deal, we push their cause forward 20 years...if we collapse the executive and go to direct rule, we send the entire process 20 years into the past.

As thingsstand, thats the best of a bad situation...it will hurt us but the trade off is it will hurt republicanism more ^

A border poll will come in due course, Sinn Fein are only keeping the pressure on and will take their cue from the nationalist community. They were behind the curve in relation to how much anger there was in the nationalist community for the arrogance and contempt shown by the DUP et al. towards them, and had to harden their position in reflection of same. There are multiple pieces in play on the board atm, the northern statlet is being undermined from within by the nationalist agenda and the greening of the north along with the impending demographic dominance and without by Brexit, English nationalism & indifference as well as Scottish independence. We are in the last days of a failed experiment, the DUP et al. are only passengers, as there are multiple moving pieces that are totally beyond their control.

The unionist vote was up and one of the highest but still had only 1,200 votes to spare to stop Sinn Fein from being the largest party. I am confident that there is plenty in the nationalist tank and there will be a further increase in the nationalist vote in any upcoming elections, especially as the gap is so tight, whereas unionism is dwindling by the day. Hence the DUP`s lack of appetite for another election and calls for unionist unity etc. Time is on the nationalist/republican side and it can afford to wait for events to unfold with Brexit, and the Scots to continue on their relentless pursuit of independence. To think things are not going to change radically over the next few years is just willful delusion, but if it helps unionism to sleep at night, let them slumber in ignorance.

 

[Adept]

The Observer view on triggering article 50

Every day produces more evidence that this hard Tory Brexit is a disaster in the making. Carmakers and other export manufacturers, fearing swingeing tariffs, are demanding special protections and exemptions or else they leave. Professional bodies, ranging from lawyers to economists, warn of endlessly damaging business consequences. The NHS faces the loss of tens of thousands of qualified doctors and nurses it has no prospect of replacing. Care homes are in a similar plight. Banks, financial institutions and airlines face unavoidable decisions about moving jobs and operations to mainland Europe.

Environmentalists rightly fear the cleaner rivers and cleaner air ensured by EU regulations (red tape to the Europhobes) may soon become a thing of the past. British citizens living and working in Europe fear the chaos that would surely follow all-out rupture; likewise EU citizens living here. Britain’s farmers, like its academics, surely realise by now, if they did not before, that they cannot trust this government to replicate the research funding, subsidies and employment freedoms that EU membership currently bestows. The average British family is now hemmed in by multiple, authoritative predictions of stagnant or falling wages, higher food and fuel prices, an ongoing sterling devaluation, collapsing social care and public services and increased, regressive indirect taxation. Be you a Remainer or a Leaver, you would have to be particularly obtuse not to see that May’s hard Tory Brexit will cost this country and its families more than it can conceivably afford.

 

[FuzzySpider]

The Observer view on triggering article 50

A very UK-centric view of Brexit. Brexit has a lot of positives for Europe. Financial services brought into the Eurozone, Irish reunification, Scottish independence, a severely obstructive voice in EU politics removed etc.

It might bring about a more civilized UK eventually as well. Doubtless the UK will learn from this that it is one country among many, and doesn't stand astride an empire any longer. Then its participation in international affairs might be more mature and less self-centered.

So, let's be positive.

 

[Adept]

A very UK-centric view of Brexit. Brexit has a lot of positives for Europe. Financial services brought into the Eurozone, Irish reunification, Scottish independence, a severely obstructive voice in EU politics removed etc.

It might bring about a more civilized UK eventually as well. Doubtless the UK will learn from this that it is one country among many, and doesn't stand astride an empire any longer. Then its participation in international affairs might be more mature and less self-centered.

So, let's be positive.

I do agree with you. I suspect England needs this experience to finally get over the Imperial exceptionalism.

 

[beelbeebub]

I had the feeling since not long after the vote that, whatever the consequences, that the UK would have to leave.

The leave element needs to be given enough rope to hang itself. If Brexit didn't happen, the Leave element would be forever moaning about how it was robbed and how much better things would be outside the EU.

Now we get to.see how their promises stack up.

Maybe it will be as they say, in which case great, horray!

On the other hand if, as I suspect, it's a cluster fork, then the UK will have tried the ideas of the Eurosceptics , they are in charge, there is nowhere for them to hide (although I'm sure they will try to shift the blame).

If things don't go as advertised, I hope the UK will be able to rejoin the EU, and with the knowledge of what Brexit brought, engage constructively with our neighbours.

 

[Trinity Star]

Seriously who still thinks we still have an empire or want a new one? Some of you folks have invented your own little dreamworld, I doubt some on here live in the real world and probably send their butler to do the shopping so they don't have to mix with working class folks.