Well Johann Lamont, at the time the leader of the north of Scotland branch of Labour (or "Scottish Labour" as they falsely describe themselves) did say "We’re not genetically programmed in Scotland to make political decisions".
General / Off-Topic is scotland leaving the UK?
- Thread starter jmg
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Well Johann Lamont, at the time the leader of the north of Scotland branch of Labour (or "Scottish Labour" as they falsely describe themselves) did say "We’re not genetically programmed in Scotland to make political decisions".
I do remember hearing that at the time, a classic case of the slave mentality and inferiority complex. Obviously she`s a moron and Scottish labour seems to provide a rich vein for same, hence they are a non entity.
1.
This is Corporation Tax.
Not the Profit Tax on the Owners of the Companies.
Moreover this is the Corporation Tax of Companies listed in Scotland. Its not the Taxes on all Companies which got Facilities in Scotland.
2.
Irrelevant.
I merely Answered where the 36bn Figure comes from.
GERS is listing this but as I said before. GERS is also Including Military and other UK Relevant Expenditures not actually going to be there when Scotland would be Independent.
3.
No.
Its Produced by the Scottish Government and before its Published it has to be Signed by the UK.
4.
See above.
Also this Paper only Points out that the Estimates can be different if used different Methodes or if the Values were Updated.
Its not saying anything about Supervision of Third Parties.
5.
You need to Remember that the Scottish Government is not 100% SNP.
Neither is it Independent.
Meaning that on UK colltected Taxes as well as UK Expenditures it only Repeats the UK Government given Values.
6.
Lol.
No Mate.
See this is exactly the thing why I keep telling you that your the one Doing Propaganda.
Scotland does not need to do without the Stuff which currently the UK Government is Paying for.
Because unlike what you claim. Scotland will not only lose UK Money but will also Gain its own Money back.
Social Security, Agriculture etc etc is all inside Scotlands own Budget of only about 40 Billion.
The bigger 70 Billion Budget includes mostly the cost for Government Structures of the UK, Military and Security Shares (pls not Military not Police)
Do you think all the Bureaucracy that makes sure the UK has its Reigns on Scotland as well as the Military Bases and other UK Services are for Free to Scotland ?
I am Repeating this again.
Scotland outside the UK will likely Run a Smaller Deficit than it does inside the UK.
See Mate I dont see how that is so Hard to Understand.
If Scotland inside the UK makes an Deficit of 12 Billion.
Then by the same Revenue but without the Additional Cost of the UK Framework etc.
You notice you get a Smaller Deficit than before.
In Short no matter how your Turn it.
The Deficit Scotland would Run outside the UK is likely Smaller than inside the UK.
And why would it just not get the stuff that the UK "Pays" for.
Aside from some of this stuff being gone if they Leave the UK because its only Paid to keep up the Union and is not Required if Scotland goes Independent.
Why would Scotland not be able to take on Debts by itself ?
I don't believe I've heard any mainstream commentary suggesting that we can't (and illustrations of the issues at hand shouldn't be interpreted as "reasons Scotland can't"). But there are major discussions to be had about the future of an independent Scotland, it's divorce from the UK and what impact that's likely to have on its people and to try to diminish the issues is to erode credibility, in my book.
Put more bluntly: just because we can doesn't mean we should. There's a choice coming for the people of Scotland and it's up to each party to persuade us that their vision is the better one for each person.
If it were up to me, I'd completely knock the independence topic on the head in favour of a fully federalised UK. A vision like that strikes me as the best of both worlds for all concerned.
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What? Income tax and corporation tax are both there. What taxes do you think are missing? Why do you believe that the apportionment is wrong (or at least so wrong as to be invalid)?
And as to your second point: READ THE BLOODY DOCUMENTS. Your statement is incorrect. You can keep repeating it all you want, but it's wrong.
Actually, re: all your points. Produce some evidence or analysis please. We're not going to get anywhere if you just keep "saying" stuff. Back it up with something credible. And, as I said earlier in the thread, opinions are worthless. These are the figures that will be used when the referendum chat comes alive properly and the SNP themselves have never (to my knowledge) challenged them.
Scotland will not be allowed to leave until they return the Wembley goal posts.
Well if you`re confident that Scotland after indy will be economically fine then the issue is an emotional attachment and that`s a different conversation, as such it should not be conflated with the other. A federal UK will not work as England is the monster in the room, 55 million population as opposed to Scotland's 5 million odd. Are you going to break England down to similar sized areas to create a patchwork. No scrambling for alternatives will save the UK at this stage.
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1.
Mate what Part of "The People which are Based and thus Taxed in London" do you not Understand ???
Of course Income and Corporate Tax are Listed in Scotland.
But not all Companies that are Producing in Scotland are Paying their Taxes in Scotland.
Is that so hard to Grasp ???
2.
Mate no Offense but we are both using the Same Documents lol.
My Evidence is the exactly same Document that you kept Linking.
You can also Read up in the UKs Laws which Taxes etc are Collected and Set by the UK. And which ones are from Scotland.
Is that asked too much ???
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The main Problem is he somehow sees my Statement of Scotland being able to Finance themselves.
As saying that Scotland would suddenly Swim in Money if it declared Independence.
I think he cannot grasp the Simple Fact that Declaring Independence will Improve the Financial Situation. Not suddenly solve all of Scotland Problems and Costs.
He also seems to think that Scotland would somehow not be able to take on Debts meaning if it left the UK it would somehow have to Cut out stuff from its Budget.
Unfortunately none of that is the Case.
Which should have continued, "but then again, neither is anybody else".
Going back to this, briefly, even if this something that Scotland can do (IANAL so this is anybody's guess) politically and economically it would be suicidal. Any other nation that iScot would want to make trade or political agreements would think very hard about doing so... as if the Scots bunk out of their divorce proceedings who's to tell what they would do in other relationships. And also good luck in any other agreement with the rest of the UK.
Exactly the same reason that UK now has to negotiate those future budget agreements with the EU. If we walk away from them unilaterally, good luck in getting other treaties signed. With this in mind I can't see the EU being too impressed, a problem if iScot wants to join ASAP.
Plus it would be pretty chaotic if rUK close the doors on all iScot UK govt offices the day before the handover leaving iScot with no central infrastructure at all - staff sacked or moved south, leases closed, desks & pcs in moving trucks. rUK's "nuclear" option will hurt iScotland far more than iScotland can hurt ours. Note: this includes military, customs/border as well as other infrastructure.
It's a mess whatever happens, if it happens.
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Well as I previously linked the UK sovereign confirmed its sole liability for the debt in 2014, so Scotland has no debt (despite the fact it hasn`t or had the power to borrow debt) and as such cannot default. As for financial prudence the financial markets would mark down Scotland and reduce its credit rating it if was stupid enough to accept any debt liabilities without in turn receiving its corresponding share of the assets. Now tell me, how is this so hard for persons of reasonable intelligence to comprehend, why do I have to keep repeating the obvious & where is the contradiction here?
There's the economically fine inside the Union and economically fine outside it. That's the choice I'm talking about. Just because I accept Scotland can go it alone, doesn't mean that I don't have an impression that we'd be economically better off.
Speaking solely for myself in pragmatic terms; I couldn't give a monkey's whether we're governed from Westminster or Holyrood. They are, to all intents and purposes, equally far apart - so the question of self-governance is moot to me. So when we're talking about the independence debate, I'm looking at my own future and my children's future and trying to make a choice between those two competing visions. "Scotland should be governed from Scotland" actually means nothing of practical value in my view (especially given that the Central Belt will continue to dominate domestic politics, spending and expediture either way).
Re: Federalisation; that's exactly what I'd look to do.
Please understand, as it's getting awfully frustrating now: What you're talking about is already accounted for in GERS. I'll quite happily concede that the number will be a modelled guess, but that also means that it is as likely to be too high as too low. If you think it's too low, or that expenditure is modelled incorrectly to any degree that matters, you have to show why.
In my view, declaring independence will only alter (not improve) the financial situation. I can't see any reason not to take GERS at face value in the absence of fully itemised data (which we'll never get in the timescales we'd need). But I'm pushing the point because you're making statements which are simply not credible.
Well, possibly, but it's not a good way to endear yourself to the great voting public.
Indeed not. Sounds like a fool of the first order. I was just amused by the idea of thinking that some would be "genetically programmed to" make political decisions. So much wrong with that sentence.
The suicide is happening but it is not Scotland's doing.
England has locked Scotland and Northern Ireland into a room. It's going to blow its brains out, followed by Ireland, then itself with the signing of Article 50.
Scotland scampering away from England is not ideal, but I don't see that it has any alternative.
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I understand you have an emotional attachment to the UK and that`s fair enough and perfectly understandable, and from an economics point of view if it were six of one or half dozen of the other, you would opt for the union. I have no issue with your beliefs on that front. Personally I believe Scotland will thrive with indy like the multiple countries that have previously tread that well worn path. On the democracy side of things, I think its beyond any argument that there is a very major democratic deficit in Scotland as part of the UK, case in point the Brexit vote to remain being totally disregarded, the fact the Tories are the real government of Scotland at the end of the day despite dismal support for same in Scotland. It just cannot be described as a representative democracy. The people best to govern Scotland in all its facets are its own people. This is an indisputable fact seen across the globe.
Edit-Re the Federal solution, England will never accommodate such a patchwork process and its too late. People should have grasped at this stage that the English just think of Scotland and Wales as greater England under the convenience of Britain.
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1.
Frustrating indeed. Because no its not lol.
To be Precise it cannot be accounted for by GERS because they cannot actually have this Data.
But oh well this seems to be beyond you so I wont bother any further.
2.
Its funny how everyone made a Big Fuss about just how much the EU Costs to Maintain.
But nobody seems to think that the UK would cost a Single Cent to Maintain.
Simple Fact.
In the absolute worst case Scenario. Scotland would at least no longer need to Pay for the Stuff which Connects them to the Union.
Now as I repeated several times.
The UK wont give up its Army and Weapons so Maintenance of such Facilities etc etc will also no longer be there. But lets leave that aside as well.
In absolute Worst case. Assuming Scotland upon Leaving just takes exactly its Share (we know it will never happen because the UK would never allow that but hey who cares)
It would still be Rid of the extra Staff and Paperwork required to Inform Westminster about everything as well as being ordered around by Westminster.
So no matter how you turn it.
The Financial Situation of Scotland will at least be Better than inside the UK.
3.
And since this will Inevitably come.
Yes Scotland will lose the Free Trade with the UK.
But given that it instead retains Free Trade with the EU.
It is simply not hard to see in which Union it has more to lose in terms of Trade
4.
Well you can take whatever you want at Face Value lol.
I think the bigger Problem is not them being Honest but you not really understanding what your reading.
GERS has made an current Situation Estimate.
The Taxes Officially Paid in London cannot be counted by this because by UK Law they are not part of Scotland.
This is Similar to the Passporting Rights of the EU.
Right now alot of Companies have their Base in London. Because the EU Laws actually allow this.
But the moment they dont because London is outside the EU.
All of that will be gone.
The same Applies to Scotland.
Right now by UK Laws. The Taxes of the Company which is Based in London even if it has some Factories in Scotland. Will do its Financial Paperwork and Taxes in London.
Not in Scotland.
But the moment Scotland is Independent. It can Demand that these Factories are handled in Scotland.
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Actually.
I just tought of an Idea how you might Understand what I am Talking about.
Amazon.uk
Where do you think Amazon does Pay its Taxes.
How much Taxes does it Pay in Scotland.
What do you think ?
It is sure as hell doing Business in Scotland.
But where do you think the Taxes of the Company go
You think they go to UK (assumably London)
Or you think they go to Scotland
Its pretty Obvious where these Taxes Go
And I can tell you. The most Scotland sees of it is the Income Taxes of a Few Guys Working in the Delivery.
If Scotland was Independent however. Then just like in the remaining EU Amazon would need to open a Branch there and Pay a Share of Taxes there like it does in other Countries.
(Or deal with it that sometimes their Stuff does not arrive xD an Problem German Customers are now and then faced with when they Order at Amazon-UK because its offering a Product Cheaper or earlier but then gets stuck in Customs because the taxes for it were not paid in Germany and thus the Good is intercepted. ^^)
I just tought of an Idea how you might Understand what I am Talking about.
Amazon.uk
Where do you think Amazon does Pay its Taxes.
How much Taxes does it Pay in Scotland.
What do you think ?
It is sure as hell doing Business in Scotland.
But where do you think the Taxes of the Company go
You think they go to UK (assumably London)
Or you think they go to Scotland
Its pretty Obvious where these Taxes Go
And I can tell you. The most Scotland sees of it is the Income Taxes of a Few Guys Working in the Delivery.
If Scotland was Independent however. Then just like in the remaining EU Amazon would need to open a Branch there and Pay a Share of Taxes there like it does in other Countries.
(Or deal with it that sometimes their Stuff does not arrive xD an Problem German Customers are now and then faced with when they Order at Amazon-UK because its offering a Product Cheaper or earlier but then gets stuck in Customs because the taxes for it were not paid in Germany and thus the Good is intercepted. ^^)
Ok. Last time I'm going to say it; IT'S ALREADY ACCOUNTED FOR IN GERS. I get what you're saying; but the GERS methodology already apportions money to Scotland to account for economic activity in Scotland, irrespective of where a company's head office is. That's true of all centrally recorded receipts. (And, for the record, income tax is also associated this way - it isn't recorded separately in Scotland from the rest of the UK.) It's not perfect, obviously, as it's essentially apportionment from survey data, but it's good enough to be an official government statistic.
Is it wrong? Probably. Is it wrong enough to be disregarded? You have to make a hell of a case to say so, and in doing so you actually attack the credibility of the organisation calling for a referendum. And, much as I disagree with their politics, I don't think the Scottish government is inept.
Ultimately, the point is moot. The Scottish government accepts the figures. The SNP accepts the figures. The media accepts the figures. These are the figures. You're right to say that spending and revenue will change. Scotland may indeed spend less on (for example) defense. That's the discussion to be had.
But, in the context of the EU, right now it looks like Scotland might have to shave about 7% off public spending in order to qualify for re-joining the EU (under their fiscal rules). Do we want that? Is there a plan to grow the economy to make up the shortfall? If so, what is it? That's the conversation.
Sigh.
Then last time from me.
No it is not.
GERS does not have Access to this Data.
So it cannot be Included.
And Gers also does not claim to have this Included.
Your trying to hide behind someone who never actually wanted to protect you and who is not attacked here.
But oh well. Your beyond Help. So just keep believing that the Union costs no maintenance that Scotland will have a Big Military and that it will run 12 Billion Deficit if it goes Independent.
Your among the ones who Believe Brexit is a Good Idea so its not like I am expecting anything else to begin with.
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