PvP Truesilver's Top Tips, No.3 ++ Gimballed Duelling ++
- Thread starter Truesilver
- Start date
TY for your kind words as ever! Will try to respond in sequence:
- Because I had no feedback cascade rails, the pre-2.1 hit points effectively apply (except increased), meaning that the Pythons, with their size 6 SCB's, had a massively larger hit point pool than the FdL's. The reduced manoeuvrability doesn't make much difference because my ToT was very high on both, it's more raw hp. Also, Python pilots tend to be more defensive and keep 4 pips to Sys.
- Thermal shock is too weak to make much difference but if I had thermal cascade cannon(s) that could have acted as valuable suppression. However, in a 1v1, provided he has a sink available before he triggers each SCB, it's practically impossible to prevent the other guy accessing his full reserve except via feedback cascade.
- The other FdL's had vastly higher hitpoints than my shieldless build (which only had 40% resists due to my small number of slots) but by hitting almost continuously I was able to neutralise one of their advantages (active regen). I suppose what it came down to was that although their hp may have been several times higher than mine, my time-on-target (hence true DPS) was several times higher again, if you see what I mean.
- Corrosive would definitely have improved my build and TTK in pretty much every fight except against the Pythons - and against the Federal Assault Ships, massively so. But this was not meant to be the best gimballed build that could be designed, more 'winning in a fun way against the odds pulse disco.' In the double chaff fights a fixed weapon would have been nice although it would have forced changes to some of my flying.
- I don't recommend the Eagle except between friends: no hp, no speed and one utility mean a short lifespan. However the Viper III, Courier and DBS are all amazing. Without enhanced drives and as a bigger target, the DBS is defensively weaker but is very forgiving to fly and runs cold. The Courier has shielding forever and enhanced drives. The Viper III has a tiny profile, no pitch but great laterals. However, nothing except the Vulture punches above its weight because they are all limited by small/med hardpoints and c3 distributor.
Hope this helps and will reply to the other guys in the thread asap, o7
+1 for KLF. Yeah!
No, I don't think so. The large and huge weapon APV's were only buffed because the Big 3 Hull Hardness are buffed. Both changes are not going in.
Of course - but if you want to fight this RNGineered FdL, I'm afraid it will have to be next Beta (unless I make one in Live) because I am now away from the game for two weeks, and Beta 2.3 will end before I am back...
Although I don't know anything about your flying or PvP experience, if you'd like to post your usual FdL build here, I'd be happy to state my guess about how the fight would go, with reasons - it would be interesting to see how accurate I am, if the fight happens!
Ah, I'm playing on live only.
Here is the FDL I'm using, for war or res ...
(that's not an optimised fitting to defeat yours)
http://beta.coriolis.edcd.io/outfit...A=.EweloBhAOEoUwIYHMA28QgIwV0A=&bn=Extreme MC
Here is the FDL I'm using, for war or res ...
(that's not an optimised fitting to defeat yours)
http://beta.coriolis.edcd.io/outfit...A=.EweloBhAOEoUwIYHMA28QgIwV0A=&bn=Extreme MC
Ah ... understood, we can't meet up anytime soon, then.
I'm afraid though that this is not a PvP build and (no offence to your skills) would disintegrate.
All the FdL's I fought in Beta (including two like yours with 5 x gimballed multis) were min/maxed PvP builds, waiting in supercruise to fight other PvP builds, with either the entire internals of the ship taken up by modded HRP's or HRP's and SCB's.
This is not a comment on your piloting skills of course but amongst the 2 million customers who have bought this game, there is nobody who stands a chance against a serious PvP-er unless they are also in a serious PvP build.
In the PvP League I was part of a team that destroyed about 40 FdL's undefeated - these were FdL's outfitted to the last part for PvP - I'm afraid PvE outfitting is a different game, o7
What's the damage reduction for gimballs Vs fixed?
I've always gone for gimballed, even with PvP, either you're getting better time on target, or, if you're fighting a chaff spammer, you just switch to fixed/deselected mode and fight as if you were running fixed. I know there is a small(ish) damage penalty for not running fixed but for me the advantages have always far outweighed the drop in DPS.
I've always gone for gimballed, even with PvP, either you're getting better time on target, or, if you're fighting a chaff spammer, you just switch to fixed/deselected mode and fight as if you were running fixed. I know there is a small(ish) damage penalty for not running fixed but for me the advantages have always far outweighed the drop in DPS.
You can compare everything in my all weapons damage tables thread here:
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/246086-Official-FDev-Damage-Stats-for-Every-Weapon
Two gimbaled overcharged medium MCs, one corrosive, one emissive. Two long range gimbaled medium cannon, one high-yield, one dispersal field. One large fixed focused burst laser with scramble spectrum.
Though if I knew beforehand I'd be fighting your build above, I'd swap all the mediums for quad rapid fire dispersal cannon and make sure I had tons of basic reloads.
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No offence as well, your build doesnt look either like a serious pvp build
Neither the opponent list you provided on the first page
But if you want me to use scb, well, that can be done in any station.
I dont understand why you cannot fly on live server, but I'm still quite interested by a shieldless fdl pretending to kill skilled shielded fdl.
(I'm not saying this is impossible, as I already saw it myself, but it was with several factors in favor of the shieldless ship, on a time engineer didnt exist)
In fact, to be more precise :
I'm not challenging your pilot skills, as I dont consider myself as skilled
I'm not challenging either both your advices and your build, as long as they are used together (but your advice can turn to be really bad with an other fitting)
But I do challenge your claim for this build to be superior to any other middle class ship on a 1v1 duel, especially versus FDL, and clipper.
Actually, I think your strategy would be quite interesting versus one of the big 3, but not safe enough versus an agile yet resistant ship
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No offence as well, your build doesnt look either like a serious pvp build
Neither the opponent list you provided on the first page
But if you want me to use scb, well, that can be done in any station.
I dont understand why you cannot fly on live server, but I'm still quite interested by a shieldless fdl pretending to kill skilled shielded fdl.
(I'm not saying this is impossible, as I already saw it myself, but it was with several factors in favor of the shieldless ship, on a time engineer didnt exist)
People will sometimes fly beta because it means not spending your entire week modifying equipment every time you want to try a new loadout or showcase a loadout/technique you wouldn't normally use. Which is something I heavily relate to, even though I don't have beta access myself.
That point aside, you stink of troll. I mean, I'm having to cover my nose to mask the stench of it here.
Yes, but I would be anyway the first one to provide feedback and congratulations on this board if theses elements of advice prove themself to be effective for whatever reason, as I'm seeking only for truth and efficiency.
As a proof of my says, most of the build I'm using doesnt come from me : I once preferred anaconda to fdl as war fighter, laser to MC, prismatic to biweave, heavy duty shield to resistants shield, etc ... For each of them, I asked the adviser to show me, and then baked, develop and repeat for his advice when it proved to be efficient
I will as well keep a definitive respect for this lonely shieldless fas who once challenged my corvette. While he didnt won and used a build I dont like for being only pvp oriented, he really teach me a lesson I wont ever forget. But for this challenge, his strategy was 100% flawless at that time even considering my current knowledge, which isnt what I saw on the OP strategy (except if he kept some hidden cards)
In addition, if I would have though the OP was completely pointless, I wouldnt have participated to this thread at all.
I'm all for questioning something that is otherwise accepted, but...
If you are genuinely after furthering your own knowledge and skillset and not just being a funny guy, I would say that challenging the choices of one of the forum's most recognised PvPers - on a thread describing a 20 win streak using a considerably unusual loadout for contemporary PvP - when your own idea of a ship for a duel includes a fuel scoop and KWS among others...
Yeah, that's not how you get taken seriously.
But this is also offtopic, so I'll leave you to learn or waste your own time as you see fit o7
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Lovely stuff mate. We should meet up and have a pew pew in game at some point.
No offence as well, your build doesnt look either like a serious pvp build
Neither the opponent list you provided on the first page
But if you want me to use scb, well, that can be done in any station.
I dont understand why you cannot fly on live server, but I'm still quite interested by a shieldless fdl pretending to kill skilled shielded fdl.
(I'm not saying this is impossible, as I already saw it myself, but it was with several factors in favor of the shieldless ship, on a time engineer didnt exist)
Firstly, let me say that I am grateful to you for your edit. I'm afraid that the first version of your post did seem to me to be highly critical of my truthfulness and skills and I did not understand why.
I am also very grateful to @StiTch for defending me.
I understand now that you did not intend to cause personal offence but because even your edited post continues to include the word "pretending", directed at me, and to question the skills of the Cmdrs in my "opponent list", I still feel I have to respond to those things, on my and their behalf.
In the PM you sent me you were wrong to call these, "randoms". I understand you may have mistaken the circumstances but let me explain. These were not the first 20 guys I met in Live in the Wyrd system and interdicted and bullied. With one possible single exception (the Dropship guy may have been a random, lol!) they were 20 guys who had fully engineered their combat ships using the unlimited modifications we have access to in Beta (in case you don't know we have infinite rolls and materials).
After making their perfect PvP ship of choice these 20 guys went into supercruise for PvP duelling, like I did.
The odds of me winning these 20 fights just by luck were 1,048,576 to 1. Over a million to one.
Now, concerning the guys I fought, of course some were more experienced than others. But the guys I fought include PvP player group members, a PvP moderator of a popular ED forum, a different guy who to my personal knowledge has fought full FA-off and all fixed weapons for over two years, and certainly in some other cases some A-ranked PvP flying.
My opinion of that is based not just on 2 years of PvP but the fact that I was for some months Adle's Armada's only EU-time PvP coordinator. I have seen a lot of PvP.
I fought in the PvP League 6 times and my record is 6-0. The League was a team event, but against the best of the best. The League does not lie.
In addition I have for a long time provided data and guides, all of which are linked in the OP and contain considerable information of proven value and vids of my flying. I would ask you to look at these.
In short: I do not "pretend" and the Beta PvP crowd are not unskilled.
Seeming to suggest that you will do better than those 20 guys while fitted with a Kill Warrant Scanner, Fuel Scoop, Discovery Scanner, Cargo Rack and Planetary Vehicle Hangar is not really PvP etiquette, although I repeat that I understand that you may not have fully appreciated that.
This thread was placed by me both here on official forums but also on reddit. Highly respected PvP-ers such as Bazinga!, Dangerous.com, Starlear and (one of the best pilots in the entire game) PoaArctica have posted there or on YouTube not with disbelief or criticism but with agreement or mature discussion of the issues. This is because they know me, and they know PvP.
Now, those things I think had to be said, but concerning your build questions.
I tried to make it clear in the OP, but will repeat here, that I am not saying that the build I flew is the best build in the game for 1v1 medium duelling. There are a number of gimballed weapons and specials that are objectively superior to using all five gimballed pulse lasers. The pulse thing was partly a fun thing.
Also, if facing gimballed weapons such as yours, it would be objectively better for me to have a shield.
However, flying shieldless enabled me to present a smaller profile and to fly far more evasively (because, 4 pips to Eng) against the Cmdrs who posed the greatest threat to me: those proficient with fixed weapons who use plasma, rail guns and fixed multis. I describe in detail in the OP the techniques I recommend using against them.
Now, I do not have the FdL build in Live, I would need to engineer it. I am still deciding whether I will do that. But if I do, I would very much like to duel the precise build you have posted with the precise build I have posted.
But this shieldless thing is not invented by me, nor am I the first to prove its effectiveness. Apart from Z4.Mafia, who is a very well known 'before and after' Engineers shieldless FDL pilot, in defence of my truthfulness and my opponent's skills I would finally like to tell you about "Nerf Pipko".
Because Nerf Pipko is the ultimate answer to what you call, "a shieldless fdl pretending to kill skilled shielded fdl".
Almost a year ago, after Engineering, legendary duellist Cmdr Pipko of the Smiling Dog Crew developed an astonishing reputation for defeating fully shielded, mega-boosted, fully Engineered Fer-de-Lances, in 1v1 FdL duels. Nobody could believe that these massive shields could be defeated so reliably.
The pilots Pipko was defeating, in these Fer-de-Lances, were themselves the best of the best, including the highest ranked members of his own team - quite literally, amongst the best FdL PvP pilots in the game, in the best builds.
Pipko defeated so many fully shielded, fully boosted, Engineered FdL's that as a kind of joke a "Nerf Pipko" campaign was started, because he was completely undefeated, with an unbroken winning record.
Pipko used a shieldless Fer-de-Lance.
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Np, I do not know Cmdr Pipko personally or what he has done since but I believe that the loadout he used for his legendary shieldless FdL winning streak in Live 2.1 was 3 x gimballed multis and 2 x rail guns.
If I got it right, the build you proposed was partially done for fun (pulse laser), and to counter a specific adversary : fixed weapons, using a specific pvp etiquette (which include, I suppose, the explicit rule to not troll your opponent 6km away for 10minutes giving time for shield to come back)
On that case, I understand, and I also conclude that my duel offer is not appropriate, as you said it yourself : in that case, a shield would be more logical.
I can confirm that it also seems totally fair to base your fitting on armor on such case, since it really increase the hit box, making fixed weapon users job much easier.
So, rather than a duel (we can do some if you want, but it will then only be for fun), I would only make some suggestions, probably not all very good, as I dont have your experience, which were the intent of the duel :
- firstly, a shield is almost free. I understand the idea of not using one as a public achievement, but :
* the shield is only taking away a small bit of armor, and generate a very small bit of heat.
* the shield allow you to start your fight with some extra hitpoint to balance for a part the armor you lost
* nothing force a shield user to actually put power distribution on SYS
* a shield regenerate, a small little thing sending this message to your opponent : "You have time ? Same here. You regenerate ? Same here"
* the best part of having a shield down is that this shield regenerate 3 time faster, you would win every regeneration pause with this*. Once again, it's just hitpoint earned freely
* without shield you reveal your build on first sight... For a skilled fighter like you, it's probably not a problem, but for average people reading this thread, having a tag displaying "you just have to wait for victory" is a wrong idea
- once your shield is down (or if you dont even have the smallest shield at all), you have a second extra :
* why you arent using silent mode in your advice ? Is this whole thread only dedicated to fighting fixed weapons on 1v1 ? It's simply a free additional chaft, there is no reason for not using it when your shield is down.
- your strategy is based on small hit box AND agility. For agility, pilots usually enjoy lightweight ship. Maybe you doesnt want to add too much extra weight on your ship with shielded mods
* and it would avoid people to be able to simply boost away with an eternal chase your ship cannot win. (especially if the opponent decided to put a simple small pulse turret long range, to tickle you to madness ... But I guess this is not pvp-etiquette friendly as well)
- in your advice, you are saying flying backward is a wrong idea (ok, not exactly, only half of the time) ... It still give for half of encounters a very good reason to fly backward, when the "spreadsheet" war will be beneficial to you, and your opponent will have to endanger himself to find a solution.
* this is why I'm not a good fighter. I almost never had to fight. I simply had to go backward, and wait for the fight to win by itself.
* encounters where you will have both less effective sustained dps and hitpoint are precisely when you face one of the big 3... But the OP is meant for fighting middle class ships
* even in case of agility supremacy, flying backward allow you to lead the dance. You can choose when you will break the face to face. The opponent can do nothing but break the fight or follow. This timing control could be quite useful when you are also using chaft ...
* once again, without shield, you cannot force your opponent by flying backward, as he will simply stop and enjoy the break while his shield regenerate
About my ship :
you asked me to give you my ship, I gave you my ship.
It's actually a real ship, actually fitted on live server right now. I'm really using it. I'm using it for many things. It's just .. my ship.
So, yes, there is discovery scanner, cargo, a kill warrant scanner, and a srv, as I'm using them all the time. I actually never bothered to adapt it to each use case, as it didnt appeared to be a need. But it's a real pleasure everyday to have directly theses module inboard.
But I will remind it's can appear disrespectful to offer a duel while providing a ship which doesnt appear to be maxed out in the extreme. (but, just remind you are also using pulse laser then)
*edit : ok, it's actually wrong, since effective shield regeneration will depend on effective shield resistance afterward. Since the opponent can easily get a 84% effective resistance, he will simply regenerate its effective hitpoints 6 time faster.
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@Peuwi,
Thank you very much for your detailed thoughts above. I will certainly read again more carefully and reply again more fully, but because I am away, it might take me a couple of days.
Let me just quickly say a few things now, in the meantime:
1. This is not a guide headed "Shieldless Duelling", it is a guide headed "Gimballed Duelling" - I am sorry if my choice of a shieldless ship has distracted anyone from that, but as I spelled out in the OP, whether someone used a shield or not, or lasers or kinetic, was not the main point of the guide - the point was to demonstrate that a fully-gimballed loadout is viable in PvP duelling, and to offer advice based on experience of how to deal with various issues.
2. I did consider fitting a shield, running it with 4 pips to Sys against gimballs, or with 1 or 0 pips to Sys if facing a high-alpha loadout like plasma and rails (where I rely on evasion) then possibly switching off the shield generator when the shield dropped. I rejected that tactic in favour of full hull tank but, certainly, it was one of many possible other tactics that could have worked.
3. To use silent running I have to pulse it on/off very carefully in order to avoid overheating, because since 2.1 firing weapons while in SR has caused massive heat gain. I do, indeed, do this but only when facing missiles if my opponent does not have the emissive special, or in other very specific situations. Because of a short period (after SR is off) within which the heat gain still applies, in practice you have to stop firing weapons for much of the time, severely reducing DPS. I would not recommend it as a standard tactic, after 2.1.
4. Although I have agreed with you that if fighting against gimbals, a shield is definitely an advantage, I am very confident in my build against the build you posted (with, or without, you having SCB's). About half of the Cmdrs in my list had either full, or partly, gimballed loadouts. Two in particular had 5 x gimballed multi FdL's, which of course is a very popular build and one I have been fighting against for a long time.
5. I think it is easy, but wrong, to overlook the fact that my chosen tactics worked for me 20 times out of 20. Perhaps other tactics might have worked even better - of course it is possible - but the fact that these tactics succeeded against the 1,000,000 to 1 odds of winning 20 in a row is really significant point, I believe.
That my tactics worked is a fact, that others might have worked better is a possibility, if you see what I mean.
But I still have to decide whether to make my build...!
Thanks indeed to all the other guys who have posted in this thread,
o7
Thank you very much for your detailed thoughts above. I will certainly read again more carefully and reply again more fully, but because I am away, it might take me a couple of days.
Let me just quickly say a few things now, in the meantime:
1. This is not a guide headed "Shieldless Duelling", it is a guide headed "Gimballed Duelling" - I am sorry if my choice of a shieldless ship has distracted anyone from that, but as I spelled out in the OP, whether someone used a shield or not, or lasers or kinetic, was not the main point of the guide - the point was to demonstrate that a fully-gimballed loadout is viable in PvP duelling, and to offer advice based on experience of how to deal with various issues.
2. I did consider fitting a shield, running it with 4 pips to Sys against gimballs, or with 1 or 0 pips to Sys if facing a high-alpha loadout like plasma and rails (where I rely on evasion) then possibly switching off the shield generator when the shield dropped. I rejected that tactic in favour of full hull tank but, certainly, it was one of many possible other tactics that could have worked.
3. To use silent running I have to pulse it on/off very carefully in order to avoid overheating, because since 2.1 firing weapons while in SR has caused massive heat gain. I do, indeed, do this but only when facing missiles if my opponent does not have the emissive special, or in other very specific situations. Because of a short period (after SR is off) within which the heat gain still applies, in practice you have to stop firing weapons for much of the time, severely reducing DPS. I would not recommend it as a standard tactic, after 2.1.
4. Although I have agreed with you that if fighting against gimbals, a shield is definitely an advantage, I am very confident in my build against the build you posted (with, or without, you having SCB's). About half of the Cmdrs in my list had either full, or partly, gimballed loadouts. Two in particular had 5 x gimballed multi FdL's, which of course is a very popular build and one I have been fighting against for a long time.
5. I think it is easy, but wrong, to overlook the fact that my chosen tactics worked for me 20 times out of 20. Perhaps other tactics might have worked even better - of course it is possible - but the fact that these tactics succeeded against the 1,000,000 to 1 odds of winning 20 in a row is really significant point, I believe.
That my tactics worked is a fact, that others might have worked better is a possibility, if you see what I mean.
But I still have to decide whether to make my build...!
Thanks indeed to all the other guys who have posted in this thread,
o7
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